2146 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I admit, this is making me wish I could have worked for the Shadow Broker all along to bring Cerberus down.

[mosor]

Xilizhra wrote...

I admit, this is making me wish I could have worked for the Shadow Broker all along to bring Cerberus down.

Cerberus woudn't have gone down in any case. The only thing that would have happened by teaming up with the Shadow Broker is having your body experimented on by the collectors. Instead of you the player assuming direct control over Shepard, it would have been Harbringer.

Modifié par mosor, 16 octobre 2010 - 12:30 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Xilizhra wrote...

I admit, this is making me wish I could have worked for the Shadow Broker all along to bring Cerberus down.

What's wrong with you? Because, you know, something is.
Would you join Saren as he offered, if BioWare gave you an option?
TSB worked with the Collectors. And he worked with Saren.
Have you read the Tali's dossier at the Shadow Broker's? It was he who ordered Fist to kill Tali, not Saren!!!
TSB was an agent of the Reapers, that much is clear!

How can Cerberus even compare with that?

[Xilizhra]

Cerberus woudn't have gone down in any case. The only thing that would have happened by teaming up with the Shadow Broker is having your body experimented on by the collectors. Instead of you the player assuming direct control over Shepard, it would have been Harbringer.

In some hypothetical AU, and after I'd already been resurrected. I could provide the Shadow Broker with more value alive than dead.

Would you join Saren as he offered, if BioWare gave you an option?

TSB worked with the Collectors. And he worked with Saren.

Have you read the Tali's dossier at the Shadow Broker's? It was he who ordered Fist to kill Tali, not Saren!!!

TSB was an agent of the Reapers, that much is clear!

TSB ordered Fist to kill Tali, but it was Fist who chose to sell that information to Saren. Which is why TSB then hired Wrex to kill Fist. As for trying to sell me to the Collectors, I was dead then; it was just business. The only wrinkle is that to side with him, I'd be betraying Liara, and that's something I doubt I could do.

[smudboy]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I admit, this is making me wish I could have worked for the Shadow Broker all along to bring Cerberus down.

What's wrong with you? Because, you know, something is.
Would you join Saren as he offered, if BioWare gave you an option?
TSB worked with the Collectors. And he worked with Saren.
Have you read the Tali's dossier at the Shadow Broker's? It was he who ordered Fist to kill Tali, not Saren!!!
TSB was an agent of the Reapers, that much is clear!

How can Cerberus even compare with that?

I supposed this all translates to destroying the base.

Because Cerberus is bad.  Them, giving you a second lease on life.  And giving you a new ship.

How dare they?

[Xilizhra]

I'd say that I've had enough of your disingenuous assertions, but that's probably the ME equivalent of "say that to my face ****er and not online and see what happens," so I'll stay quiet.

[mosor]

Xilizhra wrote...


In some hypothetical AU, and after I'd already been resurrected. I could provide the Shadow Broker with more value alive than dead.

Overestimating your worth is always a fatal mistake. The shadow broker has no interest in stopping the reapers. In fact, he appears to be helping them. I'm sorry, but whatever you can possibly offer, the reapers will probably match and exceed your offer. However, if your AU is working with the Shadow Broker to fight Cerberus, rather than working with Cerberus to fight the reapers, then your Shepard deserves every negative consequence that afflicts him/her.

Modifié par mosor, 16 octobre 2010 - 12:54 .

[Barquiel]

The old SB wanted to stop the reapers as well (the information about Saren in ME1), he was just greedy ("It's a corpse. What could they possibly gain from it?").
But I  definitely prefer the new Shadow Broker:wub:

[Zulu_DFA]

Xilizhra wrote...

TSB ordered Fist to kill Tali, but it was Fist who chose to sell that information to Saren. Which is why TSB then hired Wrex to kill Fist.

Then explain to me, why Fist appeared nice and tight in the Afterlife, where TSB had some moles planted? TSB wanted to kill Fist to cover up the Tali killing. With Tali sending him greetings that she survived the hit, he called off the contract with Wrex, 'cause no point to kill Fist.

Fist did not betray TSB. TSB was just so ruthless as to be ready to expend him to cover the tracks. Nothing left to cover, Fist lives.

Xilizhra wrote...
As for trying to sell me to the Collectors, I was dead then; it was just business.

You were only mostly dead. In deep coma, legally dead, but existing. So yeah, TSB was going to sell YOU to the Collectors. I agree though, he was not to blame. Slave trade is also "just business" in the Terminus.

Xilizhra wrote...
The only wrinkle is that to side with him, I'd be betraying Liara, and that's something I doubt I could do.

"For love!" That must be the most favorite (even if not true in most cases) motto of the traitors.

You're a savior of the Galaxy, my friend, shouldn't you employ a more responsible approach to decision making?

[mosor]

Barquiel wrote...

The old SB wanted to stop the reapers as well (the information about Saren in ME1), he was just greedy ("It's a corpse. What could they possibly gain from it?").
But I  definitely prefer the new Shadow Broker:wub:

Nah I don't believe that. He wanted the info, but not because he wanted to stop Saren. Liara  says his dealings with the Collectors were a selfish  and ill-conceived attempt to ensure his own survival from the Reapers'  coming genocide.

Modifié par mosor, 16 octobre 2010 - 01:06 .

[tallinn]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

OOC or not (I think it is not), Miranda's input on the C-Base choice is purely emotional. And all the C-Base choice is about "emotions vs. reason". So, yes, Base Destroyers are irrational. And they only prove it further by such statements as "emotions are rational".

No, it is not "emotions vs. reason" (I explained already that reason has no value without emotion) but "evaluation vs. facts". If one relies on facts only he ignores all the risks he is taking. Evaluation throws in all the stuff one is not sure of. Makes better decisions in general. Outside of chess games and math problems one never has complete informaiton on any issue that needs a decision. Then one has to go with best bet.

So the reasoning based on the usefulness of an intact base is valid only so far as you can trust TIM. The game does not offer to hand over the base to someone more trustworthy (which is a plot hole).

[Ieldra]

tallinn wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

OOC or not (I think it is not), Miranda's input on the C-Base choice is purely emotional. And all the C-Base choice is about "emotions vs. reason". So, yes, Base Destroyers are irrational. And they only prove it further by such statements as "emotions are rational".

No, it is not "emotions vs. reason" (I explained already that reason has no value without emotion) but "evaluation vs. facts". If one relies on facts only he ignores all the risks he is taking. Evaluation throws in all the stuff one is not sure of. Makes better decisions in general. Outside of chess games and math problems one never has complete informaiton on any issue that needs a decision. Then one has to go with best bet.

So the reasoning based on the usefulness of an intact base is valid only so far as you can trust TIM. The game does not offer to hand over the base to someone more trustworthy (which is a plot hole).

No it's not. If TIM gets the base and he can't be trusted, you can always take it away from him later - in fact, you can do that anyway now you have the Reaper IFF and can lead a fleet there at any time. If the base is useful and you destroy it, you can't un-destroy it later. As for how far you can trust TIM: do you think he'd work for the Reapers? I admit I'd thought that possible until I read Retribution, but he doesn't. That's all there is to it. All other considerations are contingent on the defeat of the Reapers and thus secondary.

As for emotion vs. reason: emotion lets you see Cerberus as the primary evil, because you can touch and feel it and see the consequences for single humans on your own. The thousands of deaths from the Collector attacks are more distant, and the Reapers are emotionally very far away, more like a natural disaster that you feel you can simply endure and move on. Cerberus evokes rage and prods you to action, the Reapers, if anything, fear, prodding you to run away and stick your head in the sand in denial. Only reason tells you there is no enduring it this time, only reason tells you that in the face of the Reaper threat, Cerberus' evil is insignificant (and won't that statement evoke a cascade of denial from people?). So, yes, emotion vs. reason is pretty much what this is about.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 octobre 2010 - 09:33 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

Ieldra2 wrote...

tallinn wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

OOC or not (I think it is not), Miranda's input on the C-Base choice is purely emotional. And all the C-Base choice is about "emotions vs. reason". So, yes, Base Destroyers are irrational. And they only prove it further by such statements as "emotions are rational".

No, it is not "emotions vs. reason" (I explained already that reason has no value without emotion) but "evaluation vs. facts". If one relies on facts only he ignores all the risks he is taking. Evaluation throws in all the stuff one is not sure of. Makes better decisions in general. Outside of chess games and math problems one never has complete informaiton on any issue that needs a decision. Then one has to go with best bet.

So the reasoning based on the usefulness of an intact base is valid only so far as you can trust TIM. The game does not offer to hand over the base to someone more trustworthy (which is a plot hole).

No it's not. If TIM gets the base and he can't be trusted, you can always take it away from him later

What makes you think this? Are you just assuming that Shepard can go in and take the base from TIM because of his killingskillz? Thats not how this works, TIM's firepower > Shepard's firepower.

[GodWood]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
What makes you think this? Are you just assuming that Shepard can go in and take the base from TIM because of his killingskillz? Thats not how this works, TIM's firepower > Shepard's firepower.

You cut out his answer to your question.

[Phaedon]

smudboy wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I admit, this is making me wish I could have worked for the Shadow Broker all along to bring Cerberus down.

What's wrong with you? Because, you know, something is.
Would you join Saren as he offered, if BioWare gave you an option?
TSB worked with the Collectors. And he worked with Saren.
Have you read the Tali's dossier at the Shadow Broker's? It was he who ordered Fist to kill Tali, not Saren!!!
TSB was an agent of the Reapers, that much is clear!

How can Cerberus even compare with that?

I supposed this all translates to destroying the base.

Because Cerberus is bad.  Them, giving you a second lease on life.  And giving you a new ship.

How dare they?

I thought that we had finally agreed that they were not good... 

[Gibb_Shepard]

GodWood wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
What makes you think this? Are you just assuming that Shepard can go in and take the base from TIM because of his killingskillz? Thats not how this works, TIM's firepower > Shepard's firepower.

You cut out his answer to your question.

No i didn't. 

[Inverness Moon]

Ieldra2 wrote...

tallinn wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

OOC or not (I think it is not), Miranda's input on the C-Base choice is purely emotional. And all the C-Base choice is about "emotions vs. reason". So, yes, Base Destroyers are irrational. And they only prove it further by such statements as "emotions are rational".

No, it is not "emotions vs. reason" (I explained already that reason has no value without emotion) but "evaluation vs. facts". If one relies on facts only he ignores all the risks he is taking. Evaluation throws in all the stuff one is not sure of. Makes better decisions in general. Outside of chess games and math problems one never has complete informaiton on any issue that needs a decision. Then one has to go with best bet.

So the reasoning based on the usefulness of an intact base is valid only so far as you can trust TIM. The game does not offer to hand over the base to someone more trustworthy (which is a plot hole).

No it's not. If TIM gets the base and he can't be trusted, you can always take it away from him later - in fact, you can do that anyway now you have the Reaper IFF and can lead a fleet there at any time. If the base is useful and you destroy it, you can't un-destroy it later. As for how far you can trust TIM: do you think he'd work for the Reapers? I admit I'd thought that possible until I read Retribution, but he doesn't. That's all there is to it. All other considerations are contingent on the defeat of the Reapers and thus secondary.

As for emotion vs. reason: emotion lets you see Cerberus as the primary evil, because you can touch and feel it and see the consequences for single humans on your own. The thousands of deaths from the Collector attacks are more distant, and the Reapers are emotionally very far away, more like a natural disaster that you feel you can simply endure and move on. Cerberus evokes rage and prods you to action, the Reapers, if anything, fear, prodding you to run away and stick your head in the sand in denial. Only reason tells you there is no enduring it this time, only reason tells you that in the face of the Reaper threat, Cerberus' evil is insignificant (and won't that statement evoke a cascade of denial from people?). So, yes, emotion vs. reason is pretty much what this is about.

Very well said! I think you're correct in pointing out that some of the views around here that Cerberus is the primary evil is because its more person and you encountered them in various missions in ME1. I believe this represents a failure on BioWare's part to impress upon you just how much worse they are than Cerberus. The prothean beacon vision would have been a prime opportunity for show this in graphic detail but I guess BioWare didn't want to creep anyone out and detract from the experience.

[Inverness Moon]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
What makes you think this? Are you just assuming that Shepard can go in and take the base from TIM because of his killingskillz? Thats not how this works, TIM's firepower > Shepard's firepower.

You cut out his answer to your question.

No i didn't. 

Yes you did. Shepard has many allies (depending on how you've been playing) that can provide him with a fleet in order to retake the collector base. The geth and rachni spring to mind immediately.

[Ieldra]

Phaedon wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I admit, this is making me wish I could have worked for the Shadow Broker all along to bring Cerberus down.

What's wrong with you? Because, you know, something is.
Would you join Saren as he offered, if BioWare gave you an option?
TSB worked with the Collectors. And he worked with Saren.
Have you read the Tali's dossier at the Shadow Broker's? It was he who ordered Fist to kill Tali, not Saren!!!
TSB was an agent of the Reapers, that much is clear!

How can Cerberus even compare with that?

I supposed this all translates to destroying the base.

Because Cerberus is bad.  Them, giving you a second lease on life.  And giving you a new ship.

How dare they?

I thought that we had finally agreed that they were not good... 

I guess we were accepting that for the sake of the argument, because it doesn't really matter if they are or not, as long as they aren't bad enough to work for the Reapers - who are, btw, beyond that kind of classification. It's easier than having to say "the undesirable aspects of Cerberus" every time you start talking. "How evil is Cerberus?" is a topic for a separate thread, here it's only important insofar it influences the Collector base decision, so we might as well assume they are very bad, for it gives the arguments for keeping the base even more weight.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
What makes you think this? Are you just assuming that Shepard can go in and take the base from TIM because of his killingskillz? Thats not how this works, TIM's firepower > Shepard's firepower.

You cut out his answer to your question.

No i didn't. 

Yes you did. Shepard has many allies (depending on how you've been playing) that can provide him with a fleet in order to retake the collector base. The geth and rachni spring to mind immediately.

And now assumption level has been kicked up a notch. What the hell makes you think that the geth are now shepards disposable soldiers? Why would they care if TIM has the collector base? They don't care about organics.

And rachni? Could of sworn they died.

I thought the base-keepers tried to keep the assumptions to a minimum?

[Ieldra]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
What makes you think this? Are you just assuming that Shepard can go in and take the base from TIM because of his killingskillz? Thats not how this works, TIM's firepower > Shepard's firepower.

You cut out his answer to your question.

No i didn't. 

Yes you did. Shepard has many allies (depending on how you've been playing) that can provide him with a fleet in order to retake the collector base. The geth and rachni spring to mind immediately.

And now assumption level has been kicked up a notch. What the hell makes you think that the geth are now shepards disposable soldiers? Why would they care if TIM has the collector base? They don't care about organics.

And rachni? Could of sworn they died.

I thought the base-keepers tried to keep the assumptions to a minimum?

(1) I didn't specify any particular ally. Only a pure Renegade Shepard has none, and he'd likely work with Cerberus anyway.
(2) He could use those groups who are already enemies of Cerberus - for instance, why not go to the Alliance and/or the Council, tell them you don't want to work for Cerberus any more, and there's more evidence about the Reapers as well as something that could be of use in the coming conflict. You have the datapad as preliminary evidence. I think that's not an assumption, that's a plausible scenario (yeah, I know Bioware isn't for plausible scenarios, but that's beside the point). Remember that the point is to have an option should TIM prove untrustworthy or incompetent enough to give the Reapers an advantage with what he's doing . Only for that case. If TIM is going to work against the Reapers, there's no reason to stop him. In that case, I'd delay any action against him until the Reapers are dealt with. Or indefinitely, depending on what my Shepard's like.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 octobre 2010 - 10:37 .

[Jabarai]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

GodWood wrote...

You cut out his answer to your question.

No i didn't. 

Yes you did. Shepard has many allies (depending on how you've been playing) that can provide him with a fleet in order to retake the collector base. The geth and rachni spring to mind immediately.

Yes, in fanfiction that is possible. 

[Gibb_Shepard]

Ieldra2 wrote...

(2) He could use those groups who are already enemies of Cerberus - for instance, why not go to the Alliance and/or the Council, tell them you don't want to work for Cerberus any more, and there's more evidence about the Reapers as well as something that could be of use in the coming conflict.

There is no way the council will send in their fleet if they still don't even believe in the reaper threat, same for the Alliance. And do you really think if shepard goes up to the council and says "I'm not with Cerberus anymore, trust me" they will believe him?

You have the datapad as preliminary evidence. I think that's not an assumption, that's a plausible scenario (yeah, I know Bioware isn't for plausible scenarios, but that's beside the point). Remember that the point is to have an option should TIM prove untrustworthy or incompetent enough to give the Reapers an advantage with what he's doing.

That datapad could be anything. There has been no explanation if what is contained in the datapad will even be useful. 

I'm just saying that assuming you will be able to take the base off TIM as an option in ME3 if he completely screws it up is...............an assumption, a large assumption. So in your future arguments against base destroyers, don't use the "We can destroy it later on" point, as it is not anywhere near a fact.

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 16 octobre 2010 - 10:56 .

[Inverness Moon]

Jabarai wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

GodWood wrote...

You cut out his answer to your question.

No i didn't. 

Yes you did. Shepard has many allies (depending on how you've been playing) that can provide him with a fleet in order to retake the collector base. The geth and rachni spring to mind immediately.

Yes, in fanfiction that is possible. 

Not just in fanfiction. If Cerberus is doing anything to hamper efforts against the reapers then the logical course of action would be to stop them, in which case Shepard should have several allies against the reapers that he could convince to the act.

That is assuming Shepard can convince whichever ally he chooses that what Cerberus is doing will be bad for them in the long run. Anderson and Sanders were able to convince the turians to act in Retribution, and they don't like each other nearly as much as some groups like Shepard I'd say.

Though why are we assuming Shepard couldn't take the base back from Cerberus by himself? He has a state of the art stealth capable ship with an reaper-based AI. I'm sure he could destroy all of their ships docked or surrounding the base easily enough. Killing everyone in the base might be marginally more difficult, but Shepard has the best in his team.

Cerberus's main protection in this case is the IFF needed to get through the Omega 4 relay. Shepard is the only one outside of Cerberus that has one as far as we know.

Edit: Hell, Shepard could probably convince the Migrant Fleet to send in a few ships. There is salvage is far as the eye can see beyond the relay, that is a goldmine to quarians. Plus its not like they'll mind blowing up a few Cerberus ships.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 16 octobre 2010 - 11:19 .

[General User]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
What makes you think this? Are you just assuming that Shepard can go in and take the base from TIM because of his killingskillz? Thats not how this works, TIM's firepower > Shepard's firepower.

You cut out his answer to your question.

No i didn't. 

Yes you did. Shepard has many allies (depending on how you've been playing) that can provide him with a fleet in order to retake the collector base. The geth and rachni spring to mind immediately.

And now assumption level has been kicked up a notch. What the hell makes you think that the geth are now shepards disposable soldiers? Why would they care if TIM has the collector base? They don't care about organics.

And rachni? Could of sworn they died.

I thought the base-keepers tried to keep the assumptions to a minimum?

I agree, even for organics, were I the “lord-protector” of one of Shepards organic allies who had signed on to fight the Reapers I’d be more than a little put out if she started asking for soldiers to re-take the CB. Not that I wouldn’t provide them (once), but it would do no small amount of harm to any alliance in general.