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[Wulfram]

Yet the reign of Anora as sole Queen is said to go extremely well, despite no Calenhad blood being involved.

[Addai]

Wulfram wrote...

The lack of heirs isn't something which will take people by surprise, and the epilogues suggest that the Kingdom is likely to be in fairly good shape with competent rulers who can plan for it.

Really?  I see a) a queen who refuses to re-marry if she rules alone;  a king who disappears at some point, on GW business or whatever; c) a ruler who marries a Warden that disappears.  Looks pretty chancy to me.  Best case would be if Anora marries a Warden and manages to have a child with him, or Alistair rules alone and is able to find a wife who can have a child.  But it looks to me like they are setting Ferelden up for future chaos.  Good times!

[Addai]

Wulfram wrote...

Yet the reign of Anora as sole Queen is said to go extremely well, despite no Calenhad blood being involved.

She is personally popular and had her reign secured by a great military victory.  She also has the mantle of the Theirin line, even if she doesn't have Theirin blood herself.  Loghain points to this by saying at the Landsmeet "she is worthy to sit the throne of Calenhad".  He has to appeal to her relationship to that line by her marriage.

The same won't be the case for a new generation, especially since if she rules alone she never re-marries.

[Giggles_Manically]

There have been succesful leaders who never had children, but they did have someone to pass the crown down to when they left. I dont see Anora ever being able to hand over the crown to anyone.

[Esbatty]

If you allow Loghain to live Anora could try to marry off her father to young noblewoman to continue to the Mac Tir line and give her a successor. Right Addai?

[TheRevanchist]

It is true that the reigning monarch can simply nominate someone else to assume the throne once they pass away. However I think the end of Calenhad's bloodline would be abit different. Calenhad Theirin the Silver Knight formed the whole identity that is Ferelden. Like Eamon says "without Theirin blood on the throne, we could scatter back to warring Teyrners." I think that while his motives are not entierly aulltruistic he is in fact correct about this. Let's face it, the Gurrians are the closet thing the Theirin bloodline and would probably pass to someone of that family. However I highly doubt Fereldens two remaining Teyrners will just stay out of it. The Couslands and possibly the Mac Tir's are second only to the Theirin's in terms of prestige. The Gurrian's have an Arling, which is nothing to turn a nose up at. Hell even Tegan is a Bann. Speaking of Bann's who is to say that some amoung the Bannorn does not want the throne for themselves? Afterall the throne of Ferelden is different from a typical monarchy. In Orlais and such the power comes from the Emperor and goes downward. However in Ferelden the power comes from the Bann's and Arl's and goes up. The monarch of Ferelden needs the support of the lesser nobles or they have virtually no power to do anything.

[Addai]

Esbatty wrote...

If you allow Loghain to live Anora could try to marry off her father to young noblewoman to continue to the Mac Tir line and give her a successor. Right Addai?

 

[rak72]

Living Loghain would have his problems too since he is tainted.

[nos_astra]

rak72 wrote...
Living Loghain would have his problems too since he is tainted.

Pretty much this. And the taint is affecting him much worse than the younger recruits, so no, he won't produce any offsprings after his Joining.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Attributing a messianic quality to the Calenhad Therein line is an exaggeration and the belief that without it, Ferelden will necessarily fall is as incorrect as saying that Ferelden will necessarily survive under a Therein.

When the Orlesians came, they very easily kicked a Therein out and most of the nobility accepted the occupation. Had the Orlesian king been smart and tried to coopt more nobles instead of thinking he can push everyone around, then the rebellion would have practically been eliminated or severely weakened.

The fascination with the Thereins during the occupation, is exactly like the development and strengthening of messianic beliefs, religious beliefs...etc during hardship and oppression. It's a means of resistance, psychological and physical. This does not mean to me hwoever, that the people of Ferelden are blindly loyal to the Thereins and that Ferelden has no hope whatsoever without them.

I am not dismissing the symbolic power of the Thereins. Indeed, that argument is to me the most valid in putting Alistair on the throne. However, let's not exaggerate. It was very clear that the nobles in the tavern were skeptical of Alistair and were not jumping with joy at the idea. Bryce Cousland was considered a serious contender to the throne, and would have been more so had he not chosen to support Cailan instead. Indeed:

"It is common knowledge that in the five years Anora and Cailan held the throne together, she was the one wielding the power. She is held in much higher esteem than her husband by the people of Ferelden, nobility and commoners alike"

The fact that the nobles and commoners alike hold Anora in higher esteem than a Therein, and not just any Therein, but the only son of Maric the Savior, is quite indicative.

The Therein line has its uses and has symbolic power yes. But Ferelden does not have to fall without them, nor does it have to strive under them. It still saw civil war because of succession at the time of Arland and Sophia Dryden and after Arland's death, for instance.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 novembre 2010 - 11:45 .

[Addai]

He's talking about my AU story, but yes Loghain would have the same Warden problems on top of age. The Mac Tirs would also have legitimacy problems in that they are still seen as "upjumped" commoners. With Anora, people give her a pass for the reasons I stated above, but even with her people bring up the topic. Of course, if Alistair is shown to be of elven blood, the jig is up for his heirs, too.



All delicious drama for future DA and years of fanfiction.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Attributing a messianic quality to the Calenhad Therein line is an exaggeration and the belief that without it, Ferelden will necessarily fall is as incorrect as saying that Ferelden will necessarily survive under a Therein.

No one is saying these things, however.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Attributing a messianic quality to the Calenhad Therein line is an exaggeration and the belief that without it, Ferelden will necessarily fall is as incorrect as saying that Ferelden will necessarily survive under a Therein.

No one is saying these things, however.

Eamon is, and those who are agreeing with him.

Not sayign that he doesn't have a point, but he makes it look like it's axiomatic.

[Esbatty]

Addai67 wrote...

He's talking about my AU story, but yes Loghain would have the same Warden problems on top of age. The Mac Tirs would also have legitimacy problems in that they are still seen as "upjumped" commoners. With Anora, people give her a pass for the reasons I stated above, but even with her people bring up the topic. Of course, if Alistair is shown to be of elven blood, the jig is up for his heirs, too.

All delicious drama for future DA and years of fanfiction.

Damn Orlesians...

Yes Loghain is older and tainted but that still don't mean there ain't no fire in the furnace. Besides just because Anora doesn't take a husband doesn't mean she cannot bear an heir. Sure it doesn't look too great but a Royal bastard is still a Royal.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
 The Mac Tirs would also have legitimacy problems in that they are still seen as "upjumped" commoners.

Calenhad when he started was an upjumpted commoner. The people loved him precisely because of that (and because he was a Chantry devotee).

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
 The Mac Tirs would also have legitimacy problems in that they are still seen as "upjumped" commoners.

Calenhad when he started was an upjumpted commoner. The people loved him precisely because of that (and because he was a Chantry devotee).

And some people love Loghain for the same reason, but others use it against them.  They have no historical claim to the throne as the Calenhad heirs do.

I'm not arguing for a side here, rather pointing out that no matter who has the throne, the epilogues seem to be setting up a situation where the chances of a natural heir are slim and there is going to be a succession fight.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
And some people love Loghain for the same reason, but others use it against them.  They have no historical claim to the throne as the Calenhad heirs do.

That doesn't mean they, or another family, can't create one and establish themselves as a new line.
It won't be easy, just like establishing the Thereins wasn't easy.

Addai67 wrote...
I'm not arguing for a side here, rather pointing out that no matter who has the throne, the epilogues seem to be setting up a situation where the chances of a natural heir are slim and there is going to be a succession fight.

Unfortunately, yes that seems to be the case and it's annoying. I understand that a kingdom as weak and divided as Ferelden can't be fixed in a few years, but they really don't have to make it look like all that we did in Origins was for absolutely nothing, just to shove the idea that Hawke is the most important character evar down our throats.

A succession crisis, sure. A full blown civil war or worse complete state collapse? That would be annoying.

But eh, at least my Cousland still has very very high hopes for his OGB. Before of course bioware ruins it for me.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 novembre 2010 - 12:21 .

[TJPags]

One thing that has to be remembered about nobility is that it IS hereditary.  Nobles often are portrayed as believing that they are entitled to their positions, their titles, their lands, etc.  That it is, in effect, their blood which gives them this right.

That being the case, it's easy to see why the Calenhad bloodline is important in a monarch.  Their ancestors, from whom each noble derives their "right" to their position swore to Calenhad.  It's Calenhad's blood that has the right to a higher position then they do.  For anyone else to claim such a position, it's now promoting someone just like them to a higher position - something they may not be happ about.

This is why, I think, Eamon's position with Alistair's blood isa strong argument - it allows the nobles to choose a king, someone they're not so much 'elevating' as simply recognizing a hereditary posiiton.  It's why Loghain mentions Anora being "qualified" to sit on the Calenhad throne - to make her assencion possible.
Now, is there really anything special about a nobles bloodline?  IMO, no - an ancestor of theirs may have been or done something special - likely how they got the title in the first place - but it doesn't make this 27th generation decendant anything special.

But then, it's hard to tell someone who feels they have something coming to them that they, personally, don't deserve it - as you can easily imagine it would be.

[Annarl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
And some people love Loghain for the same reason, but others use it against them.  They have no historical claim to the throne as the Calenhad heirs do.

That doesn't mean they, or another family, can't create one and establish themselves as a new line.
It won't be easy, just like establishing the Thereins wasn't easy.

Addai67 wrote...
I'm not arguing for a side here, rather pointing out that no matter who has the throne, the epilogues seem to be setting up a situation where the chances of a natural heir are slim and there is going to be a succession fight.

Unfortunately, yes that seems to be the case and it's annoying. I understand that a kingdom as weak and divided as Ferelden can't be fixed in a few years, but they really don't have to make it look like all that we did in Origins was for absolutely nothing, just to shove the idea that Hawke is the most important character evar down our throats.

A succession crisis, sure. A full blown civil war or worse complete state collapse? That would be annoying.

But eh, at least my Cousland still has very very high hopes for his OGB. Before of course bioware ruins it for me.

I must confess, this is becoming a concern for me too.  Okay I get Hawk is great and the most important character (well at least until the third game comes out, then that character will be the greatest) but I really don't want them undoing all the work my characters invested into Ferelden. 

Modifié par omearaee, 11 novembre 2010 - 02:13 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...

One thing that has to be remembered about nobility is that it IS hereditary.

The crown on the otherhand is not necessarily, otherwise no one would have considered putting Bryce Cousland on the throne. Linking your claim to Calenhad symbolically obviously does you well to increase legitimacy. But it's not necessary for the monarch to be a Therein. The nobles in the tavern were unimpressed with Alistair at first and nobody does a thing when the last Therein is executed (and a minor rebellion starts if he is exiled).

Furthermore, nobility can be granted to non-nobles, such as Loghain and Calenhad way before him. So it isn't necessarily monopolised by existing families.

So the line is not as important as Eamon makes it sound. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 novembre 2010 - 01:57 .

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...

One thing that has to be remembered about nobility is that it IS hereditary.

The crown on the otherhand is not necessarily, otherwise no one would have considered putting Bryce Cousland on the throne. Linking your claim to Calenhad symbolically obviously does you well to increase legitimacy. But it's not necessary for the monarch to be a Therein. The nobles in the tavern were unimpressed with Alistair at first and nobody does a thing when the last Therein is executed (and a minor rebellion starts if he is exiled).

Furthermore, nobility can be granted to non-nobles, such as Loghain and Calenhad way before him. So it isn't necessarily monopolised by existing families.

So the line is not as important as Eamon makes it sound. 

First, I completely agree that the line is not that important - to me, anyway.  It seems important to Eamon, though.  And it seemed important to Eamon's dad and several other people I read about in TST.

Yes, nobility can be bestowed on non-nobles - as a reward for doing great deeds, as with the examples you mention.  But, for instance, what great deeds has Fergus done?  Yet he gains the title of Teryn of Highever.  There, the hereditary part.

As to the King, yes, the Landsmeet can choose someone else.  But for 400 years, they always chose a decendant of Calenhad - so it must have meant something all that time.  Hell, even the rebels followed Maric's mother - and this, after his grandfather has lost the throne.

So, I'd say it means something to some people.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
So, I'd say it means something to some people.

Yes it obviously means something. I am not dimissing the symbolic power of the line.
But the people and nobility alike are not as adamant about it as Eamon is, nor do they seem to think it's as important as Eamon does.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
So, I'd say it means something to some people.

Yes it obviously means something. I am not dimissing the symbolic power of the line.
But the people and nobility alike are not as adamant about it as Eamon is, nor do they seem to think it's as important as Eamon does.

Might have something to do with 2 consecutive generations of idiots on the throne, and an unkown quantity as a candidate.  Personally, I'm not even sure most of the nobles believe Ali is Maric's kid.  Do they just take Eamon's word for it?

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
Might have something to do with 2 consecutive generations of idiots on the throne, and an unkown quantity as a candidate.  Personally, I'm not even sure most of the nobles believe Ali is Maric's kid.  Do they just take Eamon's word for it?

If you go to the Noble Tavern before the Landsmeet, you hear them being skeptical. But apparently more about qualification than blood, so I think they might be skeptical about that too.
At the end though, they can accept Alsitair as king, based on his supposed line, so I think they ended up believing Eamon. Unless the Landsmeet was such a mess that the nobles really didn't care anymore who the kid was.

But in which case, one can wonder why they can't accept a Cousland monarch.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
 one can wonder why they can't accept a Cousland monarch.

They damn right should!!!!!!!!!!!