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[Bruddajakka]

Plus Alistair looks as much like Maric, and Cailen that some people think the two of them could have been twins.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
So, I'd say it means something to some people.

Yes it obviously means something. I am not dimissing the symbolic power of the line.
But the people and nobility alike are not as adamant about it as Eamon is, nor do they seem to think it's as important as Eamon does.

(Husband)

Eamon advice was extremely persuasive on my 1st play through but progressively dimnished every replay since then to the point I've come to the conclusion that monarchy should be rebooted with new blood and fresh faces.


Seriously, if there was a choice between a Cousland (or any other noble), that had won the Nobel prize, won the Ferelden medal of Honor, voted man of the Year by Thedas magazine etc.

vs.   the last Therin, who is a drooling idiot with a 30 IQ.   I believe Eamon would still go for the Therin.   That is just how biased he is.  


And of course once upon a time even Calenhad was just another Teryn who pulled himself up by his own bootstraps.   so if Meritocracy was what started the original royal line, why can't it do if there are worthy people who have proven themselves by their actions and achomplishments.

Modifié par Addai67, 11 novembre 2010 - 09:45 .

[Esbatty]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
So, I'd say it means something to some people.

Yes it obviously means something. I am not dimissing the symbolic power of the line.
But the people and nobility alike are not as adamant about it as Eamon is, nor do they seem to think it's as important as Eamon does.

(Husband)

Eamon advice was extremely persuasive on my 1st play through but progressively dimnished every replay since then to the point I've come to the conclusion that monarchy should be rebooted with new blood and fresh faces.


Seriously, if there was a choice between a Cousland (or any other noble), that had won the Nobel prize, won the Ferelden medal of Honor, voted man of the Year by Thedas magazine etc.

vs.   the last Therin, who is a drooling idiot with a 30 IQ.   I believe Eamon would still go for the Therin.   That is just how biased he is.  


And of course once upon a time even Calenhad was just another Teryn who pulled himself up by his own bootstraps.   so if Meritocracy was what started the original royal line, why can't it do if there are worthy people who have proven themselves by their actions and achomplishments.

I gotta agree.... Eamon's love for the Theirin line has made me dread the sacred urn quest so much. I mean the man was poisoned for a reason.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Esbatty wrote...


I gotta agree.... Eamon's love for the Theirin line has made me dread the sacred urn quest so much. I mean the man was poisoned for a reason.

This. Really. I can't stand Eamon. He is so rigidly conservative that he can't pull his head out of his ass long enough to see that clinging to a weakened past and pushing forward an unwilling, and for the most part, incapable candidate for king makes him paralell to Harrowmont in my opinion. Survival trumps tradition as far as I'm concerned, but the idiot just can't see that.

A pity that, for the sake of plot and game advancement, that I must wake him from what should have been a VERY long sleep. It's one of the things that drops cool points for Loghain with me. He should have struck to kill, not incapacitate, with that one.

Bad Loggy. Not killing Eamon is justification for removing his head.

[Esbatty]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Esbatty wrote...


I gotta agree.... Eamon's love for the Theirin line has made me dread the sacred urn quest so much. I mean the man was poisoned for a reason.

This. Really. I can't stand Eamon. He is so rigidly conservative that he can't pull his head out of his ass long enough to see that clinging to a weakened past and pushing forward an unwilling, and for the most part, incapable candidate for king makes him paralell to Harrowmont in my opinion. Survival trumps tradition as far as I'm concerned, but the idiot just can't see that.

A pity that, for the sake of plot and game advancement, that I must wake him from what should have been a VERY long sleep. It's one of the things that drops cool points for Loghain with me. He should have struck to kill, not incapacitate, with that one.

Bad Loggy. Not killing Eamon is justification for removing his head.

Remember that Eamon was the closest thing Alistair had to an actual parent and yet he spent those formative years sleeping in the stables dodging icy glances from Isolde. Man Isolde is hot though... Eamon has good taste. Bad Parent and Husband as he knew nothing of Connor and Isolde's secret due to his politically fueled delusions of grandeur. But still his wife was smokin'... like Lothering during the Blight, baZing...

]ahem[

so, uh, anyone else think Cailan would plow some other field before coming home, the nights before bedding Anora, and was possibly shooting blanks 'cause he was spent from the wenching?

[Maria13]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
So, I'd say it means something to some people.

Yes it obviously means something. I am not dimissing the symbolic power of the line.
But the people and nobility alike are not as adamant about it as Eamon is, nor do they seem to think it's as important as Eamon does.

(Husband)

Eamon advice was extremely persuasive on my 1st play through but progressively dimnished every replay since then to the point I've come to the conclusion that monarchy should be rebooted with new blood and fresh faces.


Seriously, if there was a choice between a Cousland (or any other noble), that had won the Nobel prize, won the Ferelden medal of Honor, voted man of the Year by Thedas magazine etc.

vs.   the last Therin, who is a drooling idiot with a 30 IQ.   I believe Eamon would still go for the Therin.   That is just how biased he is.  


And of course once upon a time even Calenhad was just another Teryn who pulled himself up by his own bootstraps.   so if Meritocracy was what started the original royal line, why can't it do if there are worthy people who have proven themselves by their actions and achomplishments.

Calanhad wasn't even a Teryn he was barely a gentleman's gentleman, he was originally a squire's dog handler. So yes a real poster boy for a meritocracy...

[Bruddajakka]

Honestly I wish there had been an option to poison the ashes so they'd kill Eamon rather then save him, so you could keep dealing with Teagan.

[TheRevanchist]

While I admit that the Theirin blood is not nearly as important as Eamon might claim it to be. However Anora was more popular for very obvious reason. One, Cailen was indeed a boy living in the clouds and as Loghain said needed "to atend to reality." He wanted to be a giant war hero like his father Maric Theirin the Savior. Lets face it thats almost immpossible to live up to, well except maybe the great Hawke the most legendary bamf to ever live. Aside from that Bioware has left ONE loophole in this whole thing. The fact that Maric the Savior is "lost at sea" as Mr. Gaider has pointed out. This means that Maric might possibly find his way home near the end of the current monarchs reign with other children. (because we all know he can't keep his pants up.) But aside from that. I have to agree that I feel rather disapointed that regardless who you choose as ruler and what not, it was basicly a glorious waste of time.

[Bruddajakka]

Yeah at the end of the day the best compromise seems to be Harden Alistair marry him to Anora then act act as Chancellor to get Eamon out of the picture.

[TheRevanchist]

Bruddajakka wrote...

Yeah at the end of the day the best compromise seems to be Harden Alistair marry him to Anora then act act as Chancellor to get Eamon out of the picture.

This I can mostly agree with. This way, you get at least thirty more years of Theirin blood on the throne. On top of that hardening him will actually make him a somewhat compitent King, clearly already better then Cailen. With Anora's governance skills teaching him and ruleing next to him great thing can be acomplished so in the event that the Theirin blood is indeed over with. It can at the very least end on a good note showing that the blood still showed compitence for important political matters. As well as the ability to fight to defend his lands, just teach him how to be a good general on a battlefield and Ferelden is in a golden age for at least 30 years.

As for becoming Chancellor yourself, I disagree. While I admit Eamon needs to be removed from court, I highly doubt your Warden is even remotely capable of the possition. Not to mention the possition of Chancellor is not needed given the above situation. But as a whole I like Arl Eamon, I even respect his commitment to tradition. However he takes it to the extreame, however I feel this is different from Harrowmant because I would much rather side with Harrowmant then that traitorus wrech Bhelen. Besides that Harromont was King Endrin's chosen heir, and that is how King's are decided in Orzammar in addition to the assembly typicaly agreeing to the King's choice. I refuse to support Bhelen as a Dwarf Noble no matter what due to principle, but I am now off point. 

[Addai]

"Calanhad wasn't even a Teryn he was barely a gentleman's gentleman, he
was originally a squire's dog handler. So yes a real poster boy for a
meritocracy..."

(husband)



I wish there was more enteries that described the history and the politics of Ferelden.   I guess reading the old enteries of Arls, and Teryns it seemed like office of the King evolved out that of the Teryns when Calenhad came around, but I can see now how that might not be the case.

Modifié par Addai67, 11 novembre 2010 - 03:38 .

[Bruddajakka]

So your saying a Warden who was raised from birth to possibly rule a Teyrnir isn't qualified to be a Chancellor? Or one of the sons of a Dwarven King? Because you might want to rethink that statement if you are.

[TheRevanchist]

Bruddajakka wrote...

So your saying a Warden who was raised from birth to possibly rule a Teyrnir isn't qualified to be a Chancellor? Or one of the sons of a Dwarven King? Because you might want to rethink that statement if you are.

I would say the human noble is the only exception. Because Dwarven politics are somewhat different from human problems. Aside from that no other origin is capable, which is why I said that is not the perfect solution. You also ignore the fact that the whole possition of Chancellor is not needed as long as Anora is in the picture.

[Bruddajakka]

You would do it to keep Eamon or Anora from having too much influence while Alistair is getting settled on the throne. On top of that having pretty much fought off a blight Single handed, stopped a Civil War, solved the problems of three drastically different races, one of which involved deciding who the next Dwarven King would be tends to make you pretty qualified to do whatever you decide to do. Especially in Feralden.

[TheRevanchist]

Bruddajakka wrote...

You would do it to keep Eamon or Anora from having too much influence while Alistair is getting settled on the throne. On top of that having pretty much fought off a blight Single handed, stopped a Civil War, solved the problems of three drastically different races, one of which involved deciding who the next Dwarven King would be tends to make you pretty qualified to do whatever you decide to do. Especially in Feralden.

I don't see a problem with Anora having influence in court. She is popular with the nobles for a reason, even Empress Celene of Orlais has cast praise upon Anora saying "Anora of Ferelden is a solitary rose among brambles." I think Anora making political desicions can only be a good thing for Ferelden. Eamon is a different matter. Aside from that if Anora is on the throne Eamon does not become Chancellor and goes home to Redcliffe. So again the point is mut. Lastly I never really thought your Warden had any business in decideing the Dwarven King unless  the Warden themself is Dwarven. These other "problems" you speak of are all solved by basicly killing everything in your path until the goal is reached, hardly the skill needed for court functions. The only exception being cureing the Werewolf curse. Aside from that every other problem was decided by the edge of a sword.  

[Bruddajakka]

Actually he does as long as Alistair becomes King. Regardless of whether or not he's sharing the throne with Anora. The only way he doesn't get the job in that situation is if the Warden becomes Chancellor. And just because she's beloved doesn't make Anora the perfect ruler. Besides the King or Queen decides what does or doesn't make someone qualified for the job, and neither of them have any problem giving it to the Warden if you ask to keep serving the Crown.

[TheRevanchist]

Bruddajakka wrote...

Actually he does as long as Alistair becomes King. Regardless of whether or not he's sharing the throne with Anora. The only way he doesn't get the job in that situation is if the Warden becomes Chancellor. And just because she's beloved doesn't make Anora the perfect ruler. Besides the King or Queen decides what does or doesn't make someone qualified for the job, and neither of them have any problem giving it to the Warden if you ask to keep serving the Crown.

Nor do they have a problem granting it to Arl Eamon. So clearly Anora must see him as an asset in court to allow him the possition. The man is an Arl afterall so he knows a court function far more then the Warden regardless of background. Secondly there is no such thing as a perfect ruler this is true, however Anora is pretty damn close in terms of diplomatic and economic affairs. Leaving most military matters to Alistair who is clearly a capable fighter and with training would make an excellent General. Aside from that Anora is the primary teacher to Alistair in terms of political affairs, so in addition to Arl Eamon's guideance Alistair is being taught from two different viewpoints. Giveing him more clarity when decideing political matters instead of just a single point of view from one teacher. Eamon is very conservitive whereas Anora is different in every way, if he is taught both methods then he can decide which method to use in political squabbles. Again the Warden is not needed in this case.

[Addai]

I don't get the hate for Eamon except from those of us who are raging Alistair fangirls and think he was a bad foster father. Politically speaking, he's as powerful and influential and popular as Anora. So he's a royalist. A lot of Fereldans are, both commoner and noble. They love their Calenhad kings, even recognizing that Cailan is the runt of the litter. But Eamon competently challenges Loghain and renews the Landsmeet tradition. He's a political heavyweight and did a lot of good for the country. Why shouldn't he be chancellor?

P.S. to my dear husband, no matter who you choose, Alistair or Anora, it is a "reboot."  Alistair being raised outside the line of succession already makes him different and much like his father.  As for who Calenhad was before he was elevated, that just puts Maric and Alistair on the same footing with him.  Integrity and decency along with charm is what has marked their line.

Modifié par Addai67, 11 novembre 2010 - 05:16 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
 Why shouldn't he be chancellor?

I don't hate Eamon at all personally. In fact I respect him quite a bit and I don't have a problem that he is trying to increase his power, I would be doing the same.

However, one thing about Eamon's chancellor to Alistair, especially unhardened, that is bothersome is that for me it can set a dangerous precedent. Reducing the king to a mere figurehead, while the chancellor becomes the effective power behind the throne, might end up with bad consequences for the kingdom and the crown. Now especially if that Chancellor was also tied to a specific Arling, this could ****** many nobles off and see Redcliffe as grabing power.

We have to remember that the king is technically not a Teyrn or Arl of any land, but King of Ferelden as a whole (Denerim has its own Arl as you know). So the power of the king is, in theory, emcompassing all the kingdom and is impartial to Teyrnir / Arling / bannorn individual interests, but rather focused on the interests of the Kingdom as a united whole.  

Now, if the king becomes nothing but a figurehead, and the real power of the state becomes in the hands of the chancellor, and that office is held by a line or group that is tied to a specific Arling or Ternir, this could be a major source of tension, as that chancellor can become partial to his own Arling / family interests. Not saying this would happen with Eamon, but rather with possible successors (it's possible  he might make the office of chancellorship hereditary de jure or de facto), if the precedent of strong chancellors and weak kings becomes established. 

Now I know that you favor the idea of monarchs not ruling alone and listening to advice. This is something I can agree with. As long as the king is actually ruling and not just giving the royal seal to the chancellor and defering much of the decision-making to him / her. Now I admit, I am very suspicious of chancellors becoming too strong because of what happened to the Abbasid, Umayyad and Famitid Caliphates and how that contributed to their decline.

Now you might argue that Alistair hardened with Eamon as chancellor might not be as bad. However, Eamon doesn't really know if Alistair was hardened or unhardened, and insists on putting him on the thrown either way. So he is fully prepared to make an unqualified man as king and essentially rule the coutnry in his place. I don't hate him for it at all, however I do think that his judgement here is a bit clouded by traditionalism with a mix of personal ambition.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 novembre 2010 - 05:36 .

[Bruddajakka]

Personally I can't stand Eamon. Honestly I think he's a manipulative bastard who's just really subtle about it, and the whole reason he's pushing Alistair towards the throne is due to the fact he can rule from behind the scenes with impunity.

[TheRevanchist]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
 Why shouldn't he be chancellor?

I don't hate Eamon at all personally. In fact I respect him quite a bit and I don't have a problem that he is trying to increase his power, I would be doing the same.

However, one thing about Eamon's chancellor to Alistair, especially unhardened, that is bothersome is that for me it can set a dangerous precedent. Reducing the king to a mere figurehead, while the chancellor becomes the effective power behind the throne, might end up with bad consequences for the kingdom and the crown. Now especially if that Chancellor was also tied to a specific Arling, this could ****** many nobles off and see Redcliffe as grabing power.

We have to remember that the king is technically not a Teyrn or Arl of any land, but King of Ferelden as a whole (Denerim has its own Arl as you know). So the power of the king is, in theory, emcompassing all the kingdom and is impartial to Teyrnir / Arling / bannorn individual interests, but rather focused on the interests of the Kingdom as a united whole.  

Now, if the king becomes nothing but a figurehead, and the real power of the state becomes in the hands of the chancellor, and that office is held by a line or group that is tied to a specific Arling or Ternir, this could be a major source of tension, as that chancellor can become partial to his own Arling / family interests. Not saying this would happen with Eamon, but rather with possible successors (it's possible  he might make the office of chancellorship hereditary de jure or de facto), if the precedent of strong chancellors and weak kings becomes established. 

Now I know that you favor the idea of monarchs not ruling alone and listening to advice. This is something I can agree with. As long as the king is actually ruling and not just giving the royal seal to the chancellor and defering much of the decision-making to him / her. Now I admit, I am very suspicious of chancellors becoming too strong because of what happened to the Abbasid, Umayyad and Famitid Caliphates and how that contributed to their decline.

Now you might argue that Alistair hardened with Eamon as chancellor might not be as bad. However, Eamon doesn't really know if Alistair was hardened or unhardened, and insists on putting him on the thrown either way. So he is fully prepared to make an unqualified man as king and essentially rule the coutnry in his place. I don't hate him for it at all, however I do think that his judgement here is a bit clouded by traditionalism with a mix of personal ambition.

I can understand that risk if Alistair rules alone. However like I said above if he marries Anora her teaching him how to run things in addition to Eamon provides a balance and a level of clarity neither of two have. Even more so with a hardened Alistair because he actually cares about how the country is ran and wants to make sure people are not treated unfairly by others in court.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Now you might argue that Alistair hardened with Eamon as chancellor might not be as bad. However, Eamon doesn't really know if Alistair was hardened or unhardened, and insists on putting him on the thrown either way. So he is fully prepared to make an unqualified man as king and essentially rule the coutnry in his place. I don't hate him for it at all, however I do think that his judgement here is a bit clouded by traditionalism with a mix of personal ambition.

He has faith that Alistair will make a good king because he saw Loghain and Maric rise from nothing and succeed, and he knows that he's basically a good warrior and a decent man who does his duty.  Even a competent king who can hold the kingdom together is better, from his perspective, than a fractious grab for the throne by whatever is left after the Theirins are gone.

[KnightofPhoenix]

kylecouch wrote...
I can understand that risk if Alistair rules alone. However like I said above if he marries Anora her teaching him how to run things in addition to Eamon provides a balance and a level of clarity neither of two have. Even more so with a hardened Alistair because he actually cares about how the country is ran and wants to make sure people are not treated unfairly by others in court.

This might be preferrable to Alistair ruling alone, however, I don't see Anora ever teaching Alistair anything. And I see Eamon siding with Alistair against Anora on every single issue.
So while it might form a system of checks on all sides, it might also create a situation of governmental paralysis, where no decision is taken because of those 3 (2 really since eamon will always side with Alsitair) players "vetoing" each other.

Now if Alistair and Anora end up going along with each other well and are able to cooperate, then maybe (though that would mean that Eamon is marginalised). But I don't see that happening personally.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
He has faith that Alistair will make a good king because he saw Loghain and Maric rise from nothing and succeed, and he knows that he's basically a good warrior and a decent man who does his duty.  Even a competent king who can hold the kingdom together is better, from his perspective, than a fractious grab for the throne by whatever is left after the Theirins are gone.

Do we really know that?
Eamon doesn't know Alsitair at all, how can he place his faith on him completely? If personal qualifications are what Eamon was really interested in, Anora is much more qualified than him. It's evident to me that the Therein line comes first and foremost in Eamon's mind, Alistair's character comes as a distant second, if at all.

In fact, when Eamon is cured, he actually almost says that Alistair is his last choice and someone he would not have picked if he had another (something along the lines "I would not have thought about it had we had an alternative, but the unthinkable has occured").

Furthermore, Eamon is evidently pissed off at Anora marrying Alistair. Why?
The obvious answer is because he can't become chancellor anymore, or can't have the same amount of power when Anora is around. (One can also interpret him pushing Cailan to divorce Anora, as also an attempt of rapprochement to the Crown).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 novembre 2010 - 06:00 .

[Addai]

Bruddajakka wrote...

Personally I can't stand Eamon. Honestly I think he's a manipulative bastard who's just really subtle about it, and the whole reason he's pushing Alistair towards the throne is due to the fact he can rule from behind the scenes with impunity.

And I personally can't stand Anora, because such completely bare grasping for power and ambition is pitiful.  However, I believe both Anora and Eamon also think that what they are doing is best for the country.  In the end, since both (hardened) Alistair and Anora make competent rulers either alone or with the various combinations of advisors, they're both right.

Re. marrying Alistair and Anora being the best solution, I can only agree that it's a good short-term solution.  No heir is coming out of that match, for certain.  At least if you let one of them rule alone, there is a chance they could make a baby with someone, which is better for the succession in the long run.