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[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
He has faith that Alistair will make a good king because he saw Loghain and Maric rise from nothing and succeed, and he knows that he's basically a good warrior and a decent man who does his duty.  Even a competent king who can hold the kingdom together is better, from his perspective, than a fractious grab for the throne by whatever is left after the Theirins are gone.

Do we really know that?
Eamon doesn't know Alsitair at all, how can he place his faith on him completely? If personal qualifications are what Eamon was really interested in, Anora is much more qualified than him. It's evident to me that the Therein line comes first and foremost in Eamon's mind, Alistair's character comes as a distant second, if at all.

In fact, when Eamon is cured, he actually almost says that Alistair is his last choice and someone he would not have picked if he had another (something along the lines "I would not have thought about it had we had an alternative, but the unthinkable has occured").

Furthermore, Eamon is evidently pissed off at Anora marrying Alistair. Why?
The obvious answer is because he can't become chancellor anymore, or can't have the same amount of power when Anora is around. (One can also interpret him pushing Cailan to divorce Anora, as also an attempt of rapprochement to the Crown).

He doesn't know Alistair??  He raised him.  He knows him better than anyone, barring Duncan who has sadly gone on to Sexy Warrior Valhalla.  Naturally he sees it as a last resort to pull forth the bastard they spent all those years trying to keep out of sight and out of a challenge to Cailan's rule.

Eamon is not pissed off at you marrying Alistair to Anora.  Where do you get that idea?  He approves of the idea and is shocked if you actually get them to agree to do it.  He says it's the best chance they have for ending the civil war and making peace.

[TheRevanchist]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

kylecouch wrote...
I can understand that risk if Alistair rules alone. However like I said above if he marries Anora her teaching him how to run things in addition to Eamon provides a balance and a level of clarity neither of two have. Even more so with a hardened Alistair because he actually cares about how the country is ran and wants to make sure people are not treated unfairly by others in court.

This might be preferrable to Alistair ruling alone, however, I don't see Anora ever teaching Alistair anything. And I see Eamon siding with Alistair against Anora on every single issue.
So while it might form a system of checks on all sides, it might also create a situation of governmental paralysis, where no decision is taken because of those 3 (2 really since eamon will always side with Alsitair) players "vetoing" each other.

Now if Alistair and Anora end up going along with each other well and are able to cooperate, then maybe (though that would mean that Eamon is marginalised). But I don't see that happening personally.

I dont see that being so far fetched. If Alistair proves he isn't a dim-wit and shows he actually cares about whats going on, Anora might very well respect him and treat him nicely. Afterall he loved Cailen and that man was...well lets face it...a moron. She seems to respect those who support the domestic needs of Ferelden, on top of that Alistair is a lot like Cailen so Anora is bound to become comfortable with him to some degree.

[CalJones]

Bruddajakka wrote...

Personally I can't stand Eamon. Honestly I think he's a manipulative bastard who's just really subtle about it, and the whole reason he's pushing Alistair towards the throne is due to the fact he can rule from behind the scenes with impunity.

This. And I wouldn't give him tainted ashes. I'd keep the ashes for personal use (you never know, they might cure the taint, or a really nasty wound) and give Eamon the remains of last night's camp fire. Sorted.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
He doesn't know Alistair??  He raised him. 

He sent him to the Chantry when he was a little boy, he knows nothing of the adult man who is in front of him (and that's assuming he actually raised him as a boy. Feeding and giving shelter =/= raising).

Addai67 wrote...
Eamon is not pissed off at you marrying Alistair to Anora.  Where do you get that idea?

IIRC, he is not happy about it when we go to Redcliffe.
If someone can remember it better or find it in the toolset, that would be great. I could be wrong.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 novembre 2010 - 06:22 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

kylecouch wrote...
I dont see that being so far fetched. If Alistair proves he isn't a dim-wit and shows he actually cares about whats going on, Anora might very well respect him and treat him nicely. Afterall he loved Cailen and that man was...well lets face it...a moron. She seems to respect those who support the domestic needs of Ferelden, on top of that Alistair is a lot like Cailen so Anora is bound to become comfortable with him to some degree.

I think a main reason why Anora likes Cailan is because he is a moron and that she was the one ruling. Now if Alistair proves he is smart, and starts opposing her policies (which is bound to happen, they are different and he says when hardened that he won't let her do whatever she wants), then I don't see Anora teaching Alsitair to be a better opponent in her mind.

[Bruddajakka]

Addai67 wrote...

Re. marrying Alistair and Anora being the best solution, I can only agree that it's a good short-term solution.  No heir is coming out of that match, for certain.  At least if you let one of them rule alone, there is a chance they could make a baby with someone, which is better for the succession in the long run.

And can you actually prove that? Because we actually don't know for certain if that's the case or not. We don't know for certain that Anora is infertile. All we have for proof is a letter from Eamon claiming she is, and he can't really be trusted.

All we really know for certain about who can, and can not have Children is that two wardens can't have a child together.

[maxernst]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
He has faith that Alistair will make a good king because he saw Loghain and Maric rise from nothing and succeed, and he knows that he's basically a good warrior and a decent man who does his duty.  Even a competent king who can hold the kingdom together is better, from his perspective, than a fractious grab for the throne by whatever is left after the Theirins are gone.

Do we really know that?
Eamon doesn't know Alsitair at all, how can he place his faith on him completely? If personal qualifications are what Eamon was really interested in, Anora is much more qualified than him. It's evident to me that the Therein line comes first and foremost in Eamon's mind, Alistair's character comes as a distant second, if at all.

In fact, when Eamon is cured, he actually almost says that Alistair is his last choice and someone he would not have picked if he had another (something along the lines "I would not have thought about it had we had an alternative, but the unthinkable has occured").

Furthermore, Eamon is evidently pissed off at Anora marrying Alistair. Why?
The obvious answer is because he can't become chancellor anymore, or can't have the same amount of power when Anora is around. (One can also interpret him pushing Cailan to divorce Anora, as also an attempt of rapprochement to the Crown).

He doesn't know Alistair??  He raised him.  He knows him better than anyone, barring Duncan who has sadly gone on to Sexy Warrior Valhalla.  Naturally he sees it as a last resort to pull forth the bastard they spent all those years trying to keep out of sight and out of a challenge to Cailan's rule.

Eamon is not pissed off at you marrying Alistair to Anora.  Where do you get that idea?  He approves of the idea and is shocked if you actually get them to agree to do it.  He says it's the best chance they have for ending the civil war and making peace.

Alistair left Redcliffe when he was ten, and while Eamon went to visit him a few times, Alistair refused to see him.  So really, no, he doesn't know Alistair.  I'm sure he received some report on him from the Chantry (as did Anora apparently), but I doubt what he was told would have convinced him he would make a good King.  Other than his fighting skill, I don't have the impression that Alistair was making very positive impressions.

I have a hard time believing that Eamon's can really know what sort of a King Alistair would be based on knowing him as a child.  The PC knows Alistair far better than Eamon.

I've always felt that Eamon's wanting Alistair to be King had more to do with his own ambitions (or belief in his own vision for Ferelden if you want to be more benevolent) than either his opinion of Alistair's abilities or his belief in the Thierin mystique. 

[Ryzaki]

Actually isn't it extremely difficult for one warden to have a child? So an Alistair/Anora isn't very likely anyways.

[TheRevanchist]

Bruddajakka wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Re. marrying Alistair and Anora being the best solution, I can only agree that it's a good short-term solution.  No heir is coming out of that match, for certain.  At least if you let one of them rule alone, there is a chance they could make a baby with someone, which is better for the succession in the long run.

And can you actually prove that? Because we actually don't know for certain if that's the case or not. We don't know for certain that Anora is infertile. All we have for proof is a letter from Eamon claiming she is, and he can't really be trusted.

All we really know for certain about who can, and can not have Children is that two wardens can't have a child together.

This goes back to the main topic of fertility. It's hard for a Warden to have children but not impossible. Even if Anora is infertile Alistair can simply do a Cailen and get women on the side to try his damndest to get a kid out in thirty years. Just because Alistair marries Anora does not mean a child can't be born of royal blood.

[Addai]

Bruddajakka wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Re. marrying Alistair and Anora being the best solution, I can only agree that it's a good short-term solution.  No heir is coming out of that match, for certain.  At least if you let one of them rule alone, there is a chance they could make a baby with someone, which is better for the succession in the long run.

And can you actually prove that? Because we actually don't know for certain if that's the case or not. We don't know for certain that Anora is infertile. All we have for proof is a letter from Eamon claiming she is, and he can't really be trusted.

All we really know for certain about who can, and can not have Children is that two wardens can't have a child together.

No, I can't prove it, I'm just extrapolating.  They can't stand each other, Anora is not that into making babies (as we see from her solo reign), and even if they come to a detente, no baby came out of 5 years of an amicable political marriage with Cailan, so add that to Warden infertility and...  I am sensing a combination of lack of motivation and lack of ability, so barring a miraculous conception, I just don't see it happening.

[Bruddajakka]

And I'm still not convinced that the problems weren't on Cailen's mothers side of the family when it comes to the whole who is, or isn't fertile.



And yes I'm freaking aware of the fact that Isolde, and Eamon can have another child if Connor dies. It doesn't change the fact they only have the one, and they've apparently been married for over twenty years.

[TheRevanchist]

Bruddajakka wrote...

And I'm still not convinced that the problems weren't on Cailen's mothers side of the family when it comes to the whole who is, or isn't fertile.

And yes I'm freaking aware of the fact that Isolde, and Eamon can have another child if Connor dies. It doesn't change the fact they only have the one, and they've apparently been married for over twenty years.

This is honestly a valid point. Thinking about this the Gurrien side of things might very well be the issue here. After all Maric and Rowan only had one child after how many years of marrige? Eamon and Isolde had only one child after years of marrige. Yet Maric sleeps with an elf  Grey Warden and pop theres another baby. it might be possible the the Theirin side of things is very fertile but the Gurriens might be nearly sterile. Unfortunetly for Cailen he might have gotten the Gurrien side of this aspect.  

Modifié par kylecouch, 11 novembre 2010 - 06:33 .

[Addai]

kylecouch wrote...

This is honestly a valid point. Thinking about this the Gurrien side of things might very well be the issue here. After all Maric and Rowan only had one child after how many years of marrige? Eamon and Isolde had only one child after years of marrige. Yet Maric sleeps with an elf  Grey Warden and pop theres another baby. it might be possible the the Theirin side of things is very fertile but the Gurriens might be nearly sterile. Unfortunetly for Cailen he might have gotten the Gurrien side of this aspect.  

I dunno how you posit family infertility in a family that produced three siblings, which as I said upthread is already a pretty prolific number for Fereldans, and if Connor dies, Eamon and Isolde have another child too.  Rowan died relatively young, otherwise she might have had another child as well, who knows.



*spoilers for The Calling*



I'm thinking the Architect might have had a hand in producing young Fionaspawn.  He was manipulating the Wardens' metabolism via the brooches.

[alschemid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
IIRC, he is not happy about it when we go to Redcliffe.
If someone can remember it better or find it in the toolset, that would be great. I could be wrong.

This?
Eamon: "Marrying Alistair to Anora... would not have been my first choice. Still, it does keep the Theirin bloodline alive, and Anora is a fine ruler."

[Addai]

Bruddajakka wrote...

And I'm still not convinced that the problems weren't on Cailen's mothers side of the family when it comes to the whole who is, or isn't fertile.

And yes I'm freaking aware of the fact that Isolde, and Eamon can have another child if Connor dies. It doesn't change the fact they only have the one, and they've apparently been married for over twenty years.

You're very adamant about this.

Loghain only had one child, too, as did his parents.  Does that make the Mac Tirs infertile?  It seems to be a Fereldan thing, and the Guerrins are ahead of that curve.

Not seeing it.

Modifié par Addai67, 11 novembre 2010 - 10:25 .

[TheRevanchist]

Addai67 wrote...

Bruddajakka wrote...

And I'm still not convinced that the problems weren't on Cailen's mothers side of the family when it comes to the whole who is, or isn't fertile.

And yes I'm freaking aware of the fact that Isolde, and Eamon can have another child if Connor dies. It doesn't change the fact they only have the one, and they've apparently been married for over twenty years.

You're very adamant about this.

Loghain only had one child, too, as did his parents.  Does that make the Mac Tirs infertile?  It seems to be a Fereldan thing, and the Guerrins are ahead of that curve.

Not seeing it.

Hmmm...you're right. Eamon Tegan AND Rowan...that is quite a feet actually. Where as the Mac Tir's only have one each. Perhaps everyone in Ferelden have fertility issues. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

alschemid wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
IIRC, he is not happy about it when we go to Redcliffe.
If someone can remember it better or find it in the toolset, that would be great. I could be wrong.

This?
Eamon: "Marrying Alistair to Anora... would not have been my first choice. Still, it does keep the Theirin bloodline alive, and Anora is a fine ruler."

Yea and I recall his facial expression and tone being unamused at best.

Not saying that this drives Eamon mad. But I don't think he is as happy about it, as he would have been if he was chancellor. And I don't blame him really.

[TheRevanchist]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

alschemid wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
IIRC, he is not happy about it when we go to Redcliffe.
If someone can remember it better or find it in the toolset, that would be great. I could be wrong.

This?
Eamon: "Marrying Alistair to Anora... would not have been my first choice. Still, it does keep the Theirin bloodline alive, and Anora is a fine ruler."

Yea and I recall his facial expression and tone being unamused at best.

Not saying that this drives Eamon mad. But I don't think he is as happy about it, as he would have been if he was chancellor. And I don't blame him really.

That is definently troubleing, but I would still rather see Anora ruleing then Eamon useing Alistair like a puppet...IF that is indeed what Eamon desires.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

alschemid wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
IIRC, he is not happy about it when we go to Redcliffe.
If someone can remember it better or find it in the toolset, that would be great. I could be wrong.

This?
Eamon: "Marrying Alistair to Anora... would not have been my first choice. Still, it does keep the Theirin bloodline alive, and Anora is a fine ruler."

Yea and I recall his facial expression and tone being unamused at best.

Not saying that this drives Eamon mad. But I don't think he is as happy about it, as he would have been if he was chancellor. And I don't blame him really.

Ambivalent, sure, but we also know he was suggesting to Cailan that Anora be dumped for a new model.  So obviously he only sees it as a political compromise they were all forced into, just as Anora does.  She's not happy having someone dilute her power, either.

[alschemid]

maxernst wrote...
  I'm sure he received some report on him from the Chantry (as did Anora apparently), but I doubt what he was told would have convinced him he would make a good King. 

Eamon (speaks of Alistair fondly): "I suppose it remains to be seen what sort of king Alistair will make. Personally I think the lad will do far better than he believes." "He is Maric's son, whether he sees it or not. He has a good heart. I can think of no better qualification."

Modifié par alschemid, 11 novembre 2010 - 06:54 .

[Addai]

alschemid wrote...

maxernst wrote...
  I'm sure he received some report on him from the Chantry (as did Anora apparently), but I doubt what he was told would have convinced him he would make a good King. 

Eamon (speaks of Alistair fondly): "I suppose it remains to be seen what sort of king Alistair will make. Personally I think the lad will do far better than he believes." "He is Maric's son, whether he sees it or not. He has a good heart. I can think of no better qualification."

What?  He's right about all of that.  Alistair is a chip off the old block, and anyone who knew Maric as a young man could see the same potential in him.

[maxernst]

Not having children after five years of marriage isn't convincing evidence of infertility on either one's part--since as Addai67 points out, it doesn't seem like fertility rates are very high in Ferelden anyway. I also get the impression that Cailan was off fighting battles a lot, so it wasn't like he was in the marital bed every night. If I had to guess one or the other was infertile, though, I'd guess Cailan simply because he is reputed to have had other women and not produced any bastards, whereas we don't have any reason to think Anora was getting any on the side. I don't think there's any compelling evidence to suggest that Anora is infertile.



As far as Anora not marrying again, it's metagaming information, and it may very well be a wise choice. Neither Elizabeth I nor Catherine the Great married and Empress Celene in Thedas doesn't seem to be in any hurry to get married either. The marriage of a Queen Regnant could just as easily cause a civil war as dying without an heir. If she marries a noble from Ferelden, she could ****** off all of his rivals; if she marries a foreign prince, there are other potential problems.

[Ryzaki]

...Doesn't Fereldan have birth control? So the lowbirth rates are actually not accidental.

[Bruddajakka]

maxernst wrote...

Not having children after five years of marriage isn't convincing evidence of infertility on either one's part--since as Addai67 points out, it doesn't seem like fertility rates are very high in Ferelden anyway. I also get the impression that Cailan was off fighting battles a lot, so it wasn't like he was in the marital bed every night. If I had to guess one or the other was infertile, though, I'd guess Cailan simply because he is reputed to have had other women and not produced any bastards, whereas we don't have any reason to think Anora was getting any on the side. I don't think there's any compelling evidence to suggest that Anora is infertile.

He wasn't. The Battle at Ostagar was the first time he'd actually been in real combat.

[Wulfram]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think a main reason why Anora likes Cailan is because he is a moron and that she was the one ruling. Now if Alistair proves he is smart, and starts opposing her policies (which is bound to happen, they are different and he says when hardened that he won't let her do whatever she wants), then I don't see Anora teaching Alsitair to be a better opponent in her mind.

She says of hardened alistair in the post coronation conversation "Thankfully, he has surprised me with his willingness to learn the business of ruling.  Despite his questionable humour...  he may yet be a good King"