71 réponses à ce sujet

[Arthur Cousland]

I was annoyed by how Jory kept going back and forth. One minute he's all for joining the wardens and wants to get the process over with, only to be chickening out minutes later. It was almost funny how Jory was already nervous about the joining, and then gets to see Daveth die after drinking the blood. Seeing that didn't help.



Was Jory ever conscripted or did he willingly join Duncan in Highever? The main reason that Jory had second thoughts was because he realized the high chance that he might die during the joining and he wanted to see his wife and child again. Duncan had to kill him to keep their "secrets" from getting out. If it was common knowledge what happened during the joining, then it would be harder for the wardens to recruit people, and there would probably be backlash.

[Wulfram]

It takes a different sort of courage to face an enemy where your survival depends on your own skill and actions, than to engage in some strange magical rite where your survival is basically a matter of chance.

[kag666]

I'm glad he was killed because I'm sure his attitude would have been bad for morale. Kind of like Debbie Downer... oops I mean, "Wynne".

[saruman85]

Guys, the poor chap just panicked. It's fine to diss him from the safety of our armchairs, but imagine actually signing up for a glorious order and seeing that happen in front of you. Duncan could also REALLY REALLY have made things easier by just telling Jory to calm his sh*t down and that there's a chance he'll live instead of going all Cryptkeeper on him. "There is no turning back!" Really, Duncan? Anyways we all know why the scene played out that way - 'cos David Gaider said so.

Janni-in-VA wrote...

Hmmmm, I thought you always got their armor and weapons.  I seem to remember getting them pre-1.03 without
stripping them.  As for the Tower of Ishaal, if you equip the mage and the soldier with stuff from your inventory, it's lost when you're over-run at the end.  Don't ask me how I know this.  [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/pinched.png[/smilie]

LOL. I sympathise - I really do it was one of the patches though, because I know unequipping before losing followers used to be considered an 'exploit' early on by some players.

Wulfram wrote...
It takes a different sort of courage to face an enemy where your survival depends on your own skill and actions, than to engage in some strange magical rite where your survival is basically a matter of chance.

True. Jory was brave in some ways - and not in others.

He should've been allowed to die on the front lines eh?

Arthur Cousland wrote...
Was Jory ever conscripted or did he willingly join Duncan in Highever?

He willingly joined after winning a tournament in Duncan's honour, probably expecting a life of glory and service. He also expected to return to his wife after the Blight though, which shows how maybe he didn't understand the permanence of the job...

[saruman85]

kag666 wrote...
I'm glad he was killed because I'm sure his attitude would have been bad for morale.

Sten would've probably taken his head off in disgust.

[Janni-in-VA]

"He willingly joined after winning a tournament in Duncan's honour, probably expecting a life of glory and service. He also expected to return to his wife after the Blight though, which shows how maybe he didn't understand the permanence of the job..."

Elite orders have been either part of or associated with a standing army for time immemorial. At the very least, Jory could have expected regular passes home to be with his family, and I think the Wardens would be wise enough to grant such things. Also, Jory could have done what many people in active service do and moved his family close to wherever he was posted. As Saruman pointed out, he just panicked. I would imagine that drinking darkspawn blood would be akin to being forced to face your worst fear. Knowing what the darkspawn are and knowing what happens to people who are Tainted by accident would be enough to make anyone quail a bit.





Wulfram wrote...

"It takes a different sort of courage to face an enemy where your survival depends on your own skill and actions, than to engage in some strange magical rite where your survival is basically a matter of chance."

I think that's very well put, Wulfram. I'm glad you made the point.



As an off-topic aside, samurai were beheaded after they'd already disemboweled themselves. They were already dead by their own hands, and the decapitation was an act of mercy. Had the warrior lost his nerve, his second would have decapitated him anyway because, as Sten put it, his honor was forfeit. It was a great honor and a terrible duty to stand second to a samurai during hari-kiri.

[Evil Taco]

Why was he a traitor? Simple. He was told outright that there was no going back, he even entered a contest to join. And what, because it was dangerous, he had to pull his weapon on his commanding officer? What the hell do you call running around in the wilds hacking darkspawn into tiny pieces, a vacation? The "It's dangerous so he panicked" logic, imo, only holds up if you completely ignore everything else he'd gone through at that point. Either way, what was Duncan gonna do, force feed him?

[Wulfram]

This may be a pretty modern attitude, but I'd consider my boss demanding I drink poisonous blood a fairly valid reason to break my contract and seek employment elsewhere

[Viva la France]

jory was a lil ****, if he was the best redcliffe had to offer, no wonder they needed you to defend their village.

[Kernel Cinders]

Regardless of whether or not he panicked, he drew his own sword against his own commander whom he had sworn to protect with his life. By doing so, his life was forfeit. Any honor that he had was gone. He dishonored not only himself, but also The Grey Wardens. Daveth was willing to die to stop the Darkspawn. Jory was not. As far as I'm concerned, Daveth was the one who had true honor, not Ser Jory.



It was common knowledge that fighting Darkspawn was dangerous because of the possibility of being tainted by their blood in combat. All of the men and women at Ostagar knew this and accepted it. If I was on the line and Ser Jory was standing next to me, I'd move somewhere else.



There's nothing wrong with being afraid, but to turn your back on your own comrades-in-arms, let alone drawing your own sword against them, is beyond cowardice.



Hey, wait a second! Is Ser Jory Teyrn Loghain's illegitimate son? Something to ponder . . .

[errant_knight]

You might want to change the title so that it doesn't have a giant spoiler in it....

[UFOash]

Kernel Cinders wrote...

Regardless of whether or not he panicked, he drew his own sword against his own commander whom he had sworn to protect with his life. By doing so, his life was forfeit. Any honor that he had was gone. He dishonored not only himself, but also The Grey Wardens. Daveth was willing to die to stop the Darkspawn. Jory was not. As far as I'm concerned, Daveth was the one who had true honor, not Ser Jory.

It was common knowledge that fighting Darkspawn was dangerous because of the possibility of being tainted by their blood in combat. All of the men and women at Ostagar knew this and accepted it. If I was on the line and Ser Jory was standing next to me, I'd move somewhere else.

There's nothing wrong with being afraid, but to turn your back on your own comrades-in-arms, let alone drawing your own sword against them, is beyond cowardice.

Hey, wait a second! Is Ser Jory Teyrn Loghain's illegitimate son? Something to ponder . . .

I must say I agree.
Jory annoyed me anyway, but killing him for that would have been harsh.
Raising your sword to a comrade, especially if that comrade is your superior, should warrant death.
Better him than Duncan anyway.

I feel more sympathy for Daveth, don't remember too much of him but he did try hard to become a Grey Warden, to die before he got the chance is quite tragic.

[Bahlgan]

Hey, wait a second! Is Ser Jory Teyrn Loghain's illegitimate son? Something to ponder . . .

Yea I too have to say there were quite a few traitors in Ostagar.

Evil Taco wrote...

Why was he a traitor? Simple. He was told outright that there was no going back, he even entered a contest to join. And what, because it was dangerous, he had to pull his weapon on his commanding officer? What the hell do you call running around in the wilds hacking darkspawn into tiny pieces, a vacation? The "It's dangerous so he panicked" logic, imo, only holds up if you completely ignore everything else he'd gone through at that point. Either way, what was Duncan gonna do, force feed him?

Hu hu hu perhaps it's best you change your profile pic then, lest your avatar represent a "traitor"  

Modifié par Bahlgan, 29 septembre 2010 - 10:06 .

[Bahlgan]

Damn double post....

Modifié par Bahlgan, 29 septembre 2010 - 10:05 .

[Persephone]

Kernel Cinders wrote...

There's nothing wrong with being afraid, but to turn your back on your own comrades-in-arms, let alone drawing your own sword against them, is beyond cowardice.

Hey, wait a second! Is Ser Jory Teyrn Loghain's illegitimate son? Something to ponder . . .

I was going to ask whether or not he was Alistair's long lost brother. Given how he throws a hissy fit and betrays the Wardens by leaving when he doesn't get what he wants.

And not to turn this into a Loghain debate: Look up the word retreat in a good dictionary.

[Mecha Tengu]

shock value



and to prove to little children playing the game that the grey wardens are not the "gewd guyz" and can be morally ambiguous

[Persephone]

Jory did draw his blade but he did not attack. He backed up against the wall. He panicked. And Duncan talking like a psycho serial killer all of a sudden ("There is no turning back!" CREEPY!) didn't help. Jory was nervous throughout the whole thing. If Duncan had had any sense, he'd have done Jory's Joining first, rather than Daveth's.

[TJPags]

Kernel Cinders wrote...

Regardless of whether or not he panicked, he drew his own sword against his own commander whom he had sworn to protect with his life. By doing so, his life was forfeit. Any honor that he had was gone. He dishonored not only himself, but also The Grey Wardens. Daveth was willing to die to stop the Darkspawn. Jory was not. As far as I'm concerned, Daveth was the one who had true honor, not Ser Jory.

It was common knowledge that fighting Darkspawn was dangerous because of the possibility of being tainted by their blood in combat. All of the men and women at Ostagar knew this and accepted it. If I was on the line and Ser Jory was standing next to me, I'd move somewhere else.

There's nothing wrong with being afraid, but to turn your back on your own comrades-in-arms, let alone drawing your own sword against them, is beyond cowardice.

Hey, wait a second! Is Ser Jory Teyrn Loghain's illegitimate son? Something to ponder . . .

I don't much like Jory or what he did either, but I have to quibble with something here:

I don't recall anyone ever swearing to protect Duncan with their lives, neither my PC's, nor Daveth or Jory.  Nobody swears to protect my PC with their lives when we do Joinings in Awakening, either.  So that whole line of thinking needs to go right out the door here.

He was killed to protect GW secrets, specifically the Joining - nothing else.

[Persephone]

TJPags wrote...

Kernel Cinders wrote...

Regardless of whether or not he panicked, he drew his own sword against his own commander whom he had sworn to protect with his life. By doing so, his life was forfeit. Any honor that he had was gone. He dishonored not only himself, but also The Grey Wardens. Daveth was willing to die to stop the Darkspawn. Jory was not. As far as I'm concerned, Daveth was the one who had true honor, not Ser Jory.

It was common knowledge that fighting Darkspawn was dangerous because of the possibility of being tainted by their blood in combat. All of the men and women at Ostagar knew this and accepted it. If I was on the line and Ser Jory was standing next to me, I'd move somewhere else.

There's nothing wrong with being afraid, but to turn your back on your own comrades-in-arms, let alone drawing your own sword against them, is beyond cowardice.

Hey, wait a second! Is Ser Jory Teyrn Loghain's illegitimate son? Something to ponder . . .

I don't much like Jory or what he did either, but I have to quibble with something here:

I don't recall anyone ever swearing to protect Duncan with their lives, neither my PC's, nor Daveth or Jory.  Nobody swears to protect my PC with their lives when we do Joinings in Awakening, either.  So that whole line of thinking needs to go right out the door here.

He was killed to protect GW secrets, specifically the Joining - nothing else.

This. I agree 100%. OMG, TJPags, we agreed on something!:happy:

[Bahlgan]

Persephone wrote...

Jory did draw his blade but he did not attack. He backed up against the wall. He panicked. And Duncan talking like a psycho serial killer all of a sudden ("There is no turning back!" CREEPY!) didn't help. Jory was nervous throughout the whole thing. If Duncan had had any sense, he'd have done Jory's Joining first, rather than Daveth's.

Perhaps Jory should have gone first indeed, but maybe Duncan didn't know Jory would have freaked.

[TJPags]

Persephone wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Kernel Cinders wrote...

Regardless of whether or not he panicked, he drew his own sword against his own commander whom he had sworn to protect with his life. By doing so, his life was forfeit. Any honor that he had was gone. He dishonored not only himself, but also The Grey Wardens. Daveth was willing to die to stop the Darkspawn. Jory was not. As far as I'm concerned, Daveth was the one who had true honor, not Ser Jory.

It was common knowledge that fighting Darkspawn was dangerous because of the possibility of being tainted by their blood in combat. All of the men and women at Ostagar knew this and accepted it. If I was on the line and Ser Jory was standing next to me, I'd move somewhere else.

There's nothing wrong with being afraid, but to turn your back on your own comrades-in-arms, let alone drawing your own sword against them, is beyond cowardice.

Hey, wait a second! Is Ser Jory Teyrn Loghain's illegitimate son? Something to ponder . . .

I don't much like Jory or what he did either, but I have to quibble with something here:

I don't recall anyone ever swearing to protect Duncan with their lives, neither my PC's, nor Daveth or Jory.  Nobody swears to protect my PC with their lives when we do Joinings in Awakening, either.  So that whole line of thinking needs to go right out the door here.

He was killed to protect GW secrets, specifically the Joining - nothing else.

This. I agree 100%. OMG, TJPags, we agreed on something!:happy:

You realize that hell just froze over, right? 

[The Almighty Ali]

He irritated me anyways, infact I kinda hoped I'd meet his wife in Redcliff just so my Warden could tell her he was a coward/offer his sympathies/seduce her.



=P

[Kernel Cinders]

TJPags wrote...

Kernel Cinders wrote...

Regardless of whether or not he panicked, he drew his own sword against his own commander whom he had sworn to protect with his life. By doing so, his life was forfeit. Any honor that he had was gone. He dishonored not only himself, but also The Grey Wardens. Daveth was willing to die to stop the Darkspawn. Jory was not. As far as I'm concerned, Daveth was the one who had true honor, not Ser Jory.

It was common knowledge that fighting Darkspawn was dangerous because of the possibility of being tainted by their blood in combat. All of the men and women at Ostagar knew this and accepted it. If I was on the line and Ser Jory was standing next to me, I'd move somewhere else.

There's nothing wrong with being afraid, but to turn your back on your own comrades-in-arms, let alone drawing your own sword against them, is beyond cowardice.

Hey, wait a second! Is Ser Jory Teyrn Loghain's illegitimate son? Something to ponder . . .

I don't much like Jory or what he did either, but I have to quibble with something here:

I don't recall anyone ever swearing to protect Duncan with their lives, neither my PC's, nor Daveth or Jory.  Nobody swears to protect my PC with their lives when we do Joinings in Awakening, either.  So that whole line of thinking needs to go right out the door here.

He was killed to protect GW secrets, specifically the Joining - nothing else

I'm pretty sure there was an Army of Ferelden at the Battle of Ostagar, and that the army was comprised of various elements that included Ash Warriors, Grey Wardens, Circle Mages, Chantry Priests, soldiers, knights, and officers, all of whom were participants and sworn to defend Ferelden from The Blight, or did King Cailan simply send out messengers asking for help and they all showed up?

There are many joining rituals in the world of Dragon Age. Some are called confirmations. Some have vows involved. We don't get to see them all, but many are mentioned: Alistair talks about The Templars, Leliana talks about The Chantry, you get confirmed by surviving The Fade in the Mage origin, in the Dwarf Noble origin you're confirmed as a Commander, and of course we all get to experience The Joining Ritual of the Grey Wardens in Ostagar. Ser Jory was knighted and there were rituals and vows involved. He just doesn't talk about how he became a knight, which is a good thing because even the devs would have had to figure out why such a cowardly man could have been made a knight. A soldier I can see, but a knight? It had to be hereditary . . .

1. Ser Jory was a knight serving in the retinue of the Arl of Redcliffe at King Maric's funeral in Highever. This is when he met his wife, Helena.
2. Ser Jory was stationed in Redcliffe serving Arl Eamon and visited Highever to court Helena for several years prior to them getting married.
3. Ser Jory and Helena were married and Arl Eamon gave leave to Ser Jory to serve the Bann of Highever.
4. Duncan was the leader of the Grey Wardens of Ferelden who served King Cailan.
5. Ser Jory won the Grand Melee in a tournament the Bann of Highever held in Duncan's honor, thereby getting the attention of Duncan who then invited Ser Jory to join the Grey Wardens.
6. Ser Jory was a sworn knight of Ferelden who refused a direct order from his commanding officer.
7. Ser Jory then drew his own blade against his commanding officer.
8. By refusing a direct order and drawing his blade against his commanding officer, Ser Jory was committing high treason against the Grey Wardens, the Arl of Redcliffe, and the Bann of Highever, all of whom served King Cailan, the King of Ferelden.

As a sworn knight, it was Ser Jory's duty to drink from the cup during the ritual. He was given a direct order by his commanding officer, refused, and when pressed, he drew his blade. This is what is commonly called high treason. It is punishable by death. Duncan was his executioner.

Ser Jory: "Ferelden needs my blade, and I shall not falter."

Boy, was he wrong . . .

Modifié par Kernel Cinders, 01 octobre 2010 - 12:53 .

[TJPags]

And nowhere in there was a statement saying that Jory had sworn to protect Duncan with his life, which is the part I pointed out was incorrect. I'm glad you took the time to explain anything else, but I didn't disagree with anything else - just the part where he drew his sword on someone he had sworn to protect with his life, since, you know, that part wasn't true.



Now, I COULD quibble with some of the other points you made, but I won't.

[Kernel Cinders]

Yes, Ser Jory woke up one day and decided he wanted to be a knight and added "Ser" to his name.

Are you daft? Have you ever studied what it took to become a knight in medieval times, even if it was a hereditary title? There are rituals and vows when someone is knighted. The rituals and vows may vary from different sects, religions, and races, but no knight can refuse an order from a superior, ever, without consequences, especially during wartime, and unsheathing your blade against a superior is a direct challenge to their authority. Duncan's authority was given by King Maric, and when King Maric died it was reaffirmed by King Cailan. By challenging Duncan, Ser Jory was challenging the authority of King Cailan.

Hell, when two knights argued and one of them unsheathed their blade but didn't fully draw it out, that in itself was considered a grave insult. There were rare exceptions, but as a general rule, personal duels between knights during a time of war was forbidden.

Modifié par Kernel Cinders, 01 octobre 2010 - 01:08 .