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[TJPags]

Kernel Cinders wrote...

Yes, Ser Jory woke up one day and decided he wanted to be a knight and added "Ser" to his name.

Are you daft? Have you ever studied what it took to become a knight in medieval times, even if it was a hereditary title? There are rituals and vows when someone is knighted. The rituals and vows may vary from different sects, religions, and races, but no knight can refuse an order from a superior, ever, without consequences, especially during wartime, and unsheathing your blade against a superior is a direct challenge to their authority. Duncan's authority was given by King Maric, and when King Maric died it was reaffirmed by King Cailan. By challenging Duncan, Ser Jory was challenging the authority of King Cailan.

Hell, when two knights argued and one of them unsheathed their blade but didn't fully draw it out, that in itself was considered a grave insult. There were rare exceptions, but as a general rule, personal duels between knights during a time of war was forbidden.

Are YOU daft?  What part of my last two posts don't you get?

You indicated that Jory had sworn to protect Duncan with his life.  He did not.  That is what I had the problem with.  Nothing you have said since then has changed the fact that Jory never swore to protect Duncan with his life.

Now, again, I'm just going to let the other issues go, and repeat - Jory never swore to protect Duncan with his life.  Daveth never did, Alistair never did, the PC never did.  NOBODY swore to protect Duncan with their life.

[Kernel Cinders]

By becoming a knight, Ser Jory swore to protect Ferelden and his lord. At the time of the Joining, Duncan was, indeed, his lord, so yes, he was sworn to protect Duncan with his life at all costs, even if that meant sacrificing his own life to save Duncan. He was bound by honor and duty to do so, but in the end, he had no honor and he betrayed his duty. Duncan had no choice but to kill him, and it had absolutely nothing to do with protecting the secrets of the Joining ritual.



"If a tree falls down in the middle of the forest, does it make a sound even if no one is around to hear it?"

[TJPags]

Kernel Cinders wrote...
I'm pretty sure there was an Army of Ferelden at the Battle of Ostagar, and that the army was comprised of various elements that included Ash Warriors, Grey Wardens, Circle Mages, Chantry Priests, soldiers, knights, and officers, all of whom were participants and sworn to defend Ferelden from The Blight, or did King Cailan simply send out messengers asking for help and they all showed up?

There are many joining rituals in the world of Dragon Age. Some are called confirmations. Some have vows involved. We don't get to see them all, but many are mentioned: Alistair talks about The Templars, Leliana talks about The Chantry, you get confirmed by surviving The Fade in the Mage origin, in the Dwarf Noble origin you're confirmed as a Commander, and of course we all get to experience The Joining Ritual of the Grey Wardens in Ostagar. Ser Jory was knighted and there were rituals and vows involved. He just doesn't talk about how he became a knight, which is a good thing because even the devs would have had to figure out why such a cowardly man could have been made a knight. A soldier I can see, but a knight? It had to be hereditary . . .

1. Ser Jory was a knight serving in the retinue of the Arl of Redcliffe at King Maric's funeral in Highever. This is when he met his wife, Helena.
2. Ser Jory was stationed in Redcliffe serving Arl Eamon and visited Highever to court Helena for several years prior to them getting married.
3. Ser Jory and Helena were married and Arl Eamon gave leave to Ser Jory to serve the Bann of Highever.
4. Duncan was the leader of the Grey Wardens of Ferelden who served King Cailan.
5. Ser Jory won the Grand Melee in a tournament the Bann of Highever held in Duncan's honor, thereby getting the attention of Duncan who then invited Ser Jory to join the Grey Wardens.
6. Ser Jory was a sworn knight of Ferelden who refused a direct order from his commanding officer.
7. Ser Jory then drew his own blade against his commanding officer.
8. By refusing a direct order and drawing his blade against his commanding officer, Ser Jory was committing high treason against the Grey Wardens, the Arl of Redcliffe, and the Bann of Highever, all of whom served King Cailan, the King of Ferelden.

As a sworn knight, it was Ser Jory's duty to drink from the cup during the ritual. He was given a direct order by his commanding officer, refused, and when pressed, he drew his blade. This is what is commonly called high treason. It is punishable by death. Duncan was his executioner.

Ser Jory: "Ferelden needs my blade, and I shall not falter."

Boy, was he wrong . . .

Okay, let's take this a little at a time, shall we?

First, Grey Wardens don't belong to Ferelden.  Even those stationed there.  They belong to their order, that's it.  Hence, Loghain (of Ferelden) being sent to Orlais (which he hates) to recruit.  Hence an Orlesian Warden being sent to Amaranthine.  Hence Riordan, born in Highever, serving in Orlais.  They were sworn to defeat the Blight and the Darkspawn - NOT specifically to save Ferelden.

Knighthood is not hereditary.  While usually only the sons of Knights CAN become knights, and knight must still prove themself worthy of such.  So, simply having dad be a knight does NOT make you a knight.

Vows of knighthood were usually to defend the weak, and the land, and also usually to obey the church (like it or not).  Not all knights served a lord.  Vows to a lord likely would change from lord to lord, btu vows to a lord are NOT necesary for knighthood.

Now, moving on:

1.  Okay, got nothing to do with anything here.
2.  Ser Jory was a knight serving Eamon, not a knight stationed in Redcliffe.  That sounds like he served someone else, which isn't the case.
3.  It's the Teryn of Highever, btw.  And Eamon gave Jory leave to petition the Teryn to serve him - one lord cannot just foist a knight off on another.  In other words, you can't MAKE me let someone serve me.
4.  Dunca was the leader of the Grey Wardens in Ferelden.  He did NOT serve Caillan.  Or Maric for that matter.
5.  Yes, so?
6.  Umm, he was a sworn knight of (at this point)Highever who was no longer serving Highever.  So, he was just a knight, serving nobody - a Knight errant, if you will.
7.  Yes, he drew his sword against his commanding officer.
8.  He, at worst, committed a crime against the Grey Wardens, since he never served Caillain, stopped serving Redcliffe when he went to Highever, and stopped serving Highever when he beame a Grey Warden.  And, as I said before, the Grey Wardens do NOT serve Caillan.

So, at best, or worst, depending on how you see it, he committed a crime against the Grey Wardens.  That's not why Duncan killed him.  If he'd put the sword down when Duncan said "there is no turning back", Duncan would likely have let him.

He was killed because he wouldn't go through with the secret Joining, and Duncan could not let him leave and discuss what happened.

At no point did Ser Jory, or ANYONE ELSE, swear to protect Duncan - or even obey him, from what I saw.

[Janni-in-VA]

I must agree with TJPags in this -- the reason Duncan killed Jory was to protect the secrecy of the Joining. While there are certainly people outside the Wardens who know that the Joining is dangerous, those people don't know why. I can just see a panicked Jory blurting out to all and sundry, "They wanted me to drink darkspawn blood. Darkspawn blood! How could they ask me to do that?". Result? Big time problems for the Wardens.

The Wardens are an independent military order. They are not sworn to the service of any monarch/government. Duncan commanded the Grey Wardens at Ostagar, not Cailan. One might reasonably argue that Jory drew steel against his commanding officer, but I really don't think you can go beyond that. The primary reason for his death was still to protect the secret of the Joining.

[Obadiah]

Here's thing: the Ash Warrior Leader that you speak to in Ostagar before the first battle (how come that voice actor isn't in more of the game?) says that certain people do not die from the darkspawn taint infections gained during battle and gain a resistance, but the taint overtakes them eventually. Why don't the Wardens just recruit out of those resistant survivors? There must have been a bunch of them at Ostagar already from the previous darkspawn skirmishes.

No need to scare the pants out of Jory then....

Modifié par Obadiah, 01 octobre 2010 - 06:03 .

[Kernel Cinders]

A) Okay, let's take this a little at a time, shall we?
First, Grey Wardens don't belong to Ferelden. Even those stationed there. They belong to their order, that's it. Hence, Loghain (of Ferelden) being sent to Orlais (which he hates) to recruit. Hence an Orlesian Warden being sent to Amaranthine. Hence Riordan, born in Highever, serving in Orlais. They were sworn to defeat the Blight and the Darkspawn - NOT specifically to save Ferelden.
C) Knighthood is not hereditary. While usually only the sons of Knights CAN become knights, and knight must still prove themself worthy of such. So, simply having dad be a knight does NOT make you a knight.
D) Vows of knighthood were usually to defend the weak, and the land, and also usually to obey the church (like it or not). Not all knights served a lord. Vows to a lord likely would change from lord to lord, btu vows to a lord are NOT necesary for knighthood.
Now, moving on:
1. Okay, got nothing to do with anything here.
2. Ser Jory was a knight serving Eamon, not a knight stationed in Redcliffe. That sounds like he served someone else, which isn't the case.
3. It's the Teryn of Highever, btw. And Eamon gave Jory leave to petition the Teryn to serve him - one lord cannot just foist a knight off on another. In other words, you can't MAKE me let someone serve me.
4. Dunca was the leader of the Grey Wardens in Ferelden. He did NOT serve Caillan. Or Maric for that matter.
5. Yes, so?
6. Umm, he was a sworn knight of (at this point)Highever who was no longer serving Highever. So, he was just a knight, serving nobody - a Knight errant, if you will.
7. Yes, he drew his sword against his commanding officer.
8. He, at worst, committed a crime against the Grey Wardens, since he never served Caillain, stopped serving Redcliffe when he went to Highever, and stopped serving Highever when he beame a Grey Warden. And, as I said before, the Grey Wardens do NOT serve Caillan.

A) By all means . . .
The Grey Wardens of Ferelden serve the King of Ferelden. They belong to the order of Grey Wardens in the Kingdom of Ferelden. Two completely different things.
C) Amongst royalty and the nobility it is. It's also referred to as hereditary title, and last time I checked, knighthood was a title. That's why the word "Ser" is added before their name once they have become a knight, or did you think it was just something Jory did to sound important? Ser Jory never did an honest day's work in his life. His attitude, comments, and behavior are that of a spoiled child. Based on the limited information in the game, Ser Jory was of noble blood. He wouldn't have lasted a month working as someone's squire.
D) You cannot become a knight without being knighted and there is always a ritual of some sort involved when a new knight is being inducted into an order of knights. As for vows, I agree with you. It depends on the order being joined when one is knighted, but there is always someone that the knight must swear to serve, and by doing so, they are swearing to serve the King of Ferelden. The Arl of Redcliffe is most likely the one who granted Ser Jory his knighthood, and the Arl serves the King of Ferelden, does he not? And yes, Ser Jory is from Redcliffe. He even says "I hail from Redcliffe, but I was serving in Highever when Duncan recruited me." We can mince words all night, but I'd bet that Ser Jory grew up in Redcliffe and his family is in Redcliffe. Why else would he want his wife and child to come back with him to Redcliffe? The town reeks of rotten fish. I can't say I blame Helen for not wanting to live in Redcliffe.

1. Indeed it does, as the Arl of Redcliffe is the most likely person to have knighted him in the first place and the Arl serves the King of Ferelden. If you are a knight in someone's retinue, that means you are serving that man, and last time I checked, if a knight is in someone's service, then that someone is their lord. The Arl of Redcliffe fits that description rather well.
2. Ser Jory says he was stationed in Redcliffe. Talk to him after he joins you and Alistair in Ostagar.
3. Ser Jory also says that the Arl gave him leave to serve in Highever and he was trying to convince his wife to come back to Redcliffe with him when he was recruited by Duncan after winning the Grand Melee at the tournament given by the Bann of Highever in honor of Duncan. That doesn't mean he wasn't the Arl of Redcliffe's knight anymore. That just means he was stationed in Highever.
4. You do realize that knights can serve anywhere in the Kingdom of Ferelden, right? The Grey Wardens, along with everyone else in the Kingdom of Ferelden, serve the King of Ferelden. It's a system of government called monarchy. If you disagree with my conclusion that Ferelden is a monarchy, then tell me what system of government it is. I'm all ears.
5. Ser Jory was invited, not conscripted. He voluntarily joined the Grey Wardens, and he even says how hard it was to impress Duncan enough to invite him to join the Grey Wardens. Once he agreed to join the Grey Wardens, Duncan was his new lord, and in order for Duncan to become his new lord, he had to get permission to leave his old lord so that he could join the Grey Wardens, otherwise he would have been tracked down, arrested, and hanged for desertion shortly after leaving his post in Highever.
6. Ser Jory was never a knight-errant. His first lord was the Arl of Redcliffe, and then he became a recruit of the Grey Wardens. He hadn't gone through the Joining yet, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a Grey Warden. He was a recruit of the Grey Wardens who had yet to be confirmed through the Joining and Duncan was his lord. He also had to follow any orders given by Alistair while they went to the Kocari Wilds.
7. By drawing his weapon, his life and honor were forfeit. Duncan gave him a chance to put his sword back, but he didn't, and Duncan killed him. Even if he hadn't drawn his sword against Duncan, he would have died for refusing his lord. Why is this concept so difficult to understand?
8. He committed high treason which is punishable by death. Even in modern-day society, most countries consider high treason a very bad thing.


Dragon Age is a fictional game in a fictional world, but much of the game is based on the Middle Ages. Honor, duty, rank, titles, nobility, titles of nobility, monarchy, serfdom . . . I can go on and on, but hey, this thread was about Duncan and Jory, right?

Duncan "There is no turning back . . . "
Alistair "Wait! Can't we make him shimmy down the line of Darkspawn instead?"
Duncan "Alistair, we've already talked about . . . that."
Alistair "But I want to see if it will work. King Cailan even said . . ."
Duncan "King Cailan? What did he say?"
Alistair "Nothing. Forget I mentioned it."
Duncan "It's at times like this I wish I had never conscripted you . . . "

Modifié par Kernel Cinders, 01 octobre 2010 - 07:18 .

[Kernel Cinders]

Why don't the Wardens just recruit out of those resistant survivors? There must have been a bunch of them at Ostagar already from the previous darkspawn skirmishes.

---Obadiah---

I asked myself the same thing, but then again, there are only two casualties in the Infirmary. One is out of his mind, and the other is infected. No wonder everyone is scared about fighting the Darkspawn. lol

Modifié par Kernel Cinders, 01 octobre 2010 - 07:28 .

[Elhanan]

Jory is dead because he lost initiative....

[Monica21]

Kernel Cinders wrote...
The Grey Wardens of Ferelden serve the King of Ferelden. They belong to the order of Grey Wardens in the Kingdom of Ferelden. Two completely different things.

Your premise is wrong. The Grey Wardens serve no one but their own order. They report to the Warden-Commander in their region (Duncan is the Warden-Commander of Ferelden) and up to the First Warden in Weisshaupt. They absolutely do not serve under the king and have sworn no allegiance to him. The king can remove them from Ferelden if he wants, but Maric let them return and restored their previous rights, like the ability to conscript. From the wiki: "Should they need to, the Grey Wardens possess the Right of Conscription; they may demand that any individual from king to criminal be drafted into their ranks. However — especially in Ferelden — this right is used sparingly for fear of political reprisal." If they can conscript a king, they can't possibly serve him, can they?

Modifié par Monica21, 01 octobre 2010 - 07:59 .

[UFOash]

TJPags wrote...

Kernel Cinders wrote...

Regardless of whether or not he panicked, he drew his own sword against his own commander whom he had sworn to protect with his life. By doing so, his life was forfeit. Any honor that he had was gone. He dishonored not only himself, but also The Grey Wardens. Daveth was willing to die to stop the Darkspawn. Jory was not. As far as I'm concerned, Daveth was the one who had true honor, not Ser Jory.

It was common knowledge that fighting Darkspawn was dangerous because of the possibility of being tainted by their blood in combat. All of the men and women at Ostagar knew this and accepted it. If I was on the line and Ser Jory was standing next to me, I'd move somewhere else.

There's nothing wrong with being afraid, but to turn your back on your own comrades-in-arms, let alone drawing your own sword against them, is beyond cowardice.

Hey, wait a second! Is Ser Jory Teyrn Loghain's illegitimate son? Something to ponder . . .

I don't much like Jory or what he did either, but I have to quibble with something here:

I don't recall anyone ever swearing to protect Duncan with their lives, neither my PC's, nor Daveth or Jory.  Nobody swears to protect my PC with their lives when we do Joinings in Awakening, either.  So that whole line of thinking needs to go right out the door here.

He was killed to protect GW secrets, specifically the Joining - nothing else.

Bollocks!

There are unwritten rules, they are everywhere.

Its not illegal to have sex with everyone elses girlfriends/wives, but the husband still has the right to punch you in the face.

Jory drew his sword on the man who recruited him, he may not have been thinking when he did so, in fact I highly doubt he intended to kill or harm Duncan (or even contemplated it at all) but Duncan too had to think quickly.

The secret shouldn't get out, not to mention a news of a coward warden would be damaging to the GW's, Duncan probably saw Jory drawing the sword as Jory making the choice of what to in the situation for him.

Grey Wardens shouldn't be drawing swords on each other, a Grey Warden shouldn't even contemplate such foolishness.
Perhaps it was partly Duncan's fault, "go to Korcari & get some stuff for me" & winning a tournament in one village is hardly an ideal test for someone expected to battle Archdemon's.

However he proved at the joining he wasn't Grey Warden material, but Duncan had taken it too far to allow him to leave unless a Grey Warden.

So I guess the secrets are part of it, but also a Grey Warden needs to be something that Jory just wasn't.

Modifié par UFOash, 01 octobre 2010 - 03:30 .

[Elhanan]

I do not personally believe it has anything to do with Joining secrets, but more with the inability to change one's mind once you arrive at that stage. Jory was warned a couple of times, if not more. He thought he could play war with the big kids until the sandbox got too hot for him, and then he could leave for what ever reason. Maybe he did not need to die, but pulling that sword was just not wise.

[Corker]

Obadiah wrote...

Here's thing: the Ash Warrior Leader that you speak to in Ostagar before the first battle (how come that voice actor isn't in more of the game?) says that certain people do not die from the darkspawn taint infections gained during battle and gain a resistance, but the taint overtakes them eventually. Why don't the Wardens just recruit out of those resistant survivors? There must have been a bunch of them at Ostagar already from the previous darkspawn skirmishes.

No need to scare the pants out of Jory then....

Darkspawn aren't usually on the surface, so these sorts of recruits wouldn't be generally available.  I'm not sure that enough time had passed since they started showing up to determine who was going to pull through and who was going to die.  Cailan says it's been... three battles?   But over the course of a longer Blight, that's probably a very good idea.

The dwarves might have more such individuals, but the Wardens seem to respect the need to not recruit too heavily from Orzammar, to leave its defenses intact.

[Kernel Cinders]

UFOash wrote



Bollocks! There are unwritten rules, they are everywhere.



I am guessing that you are in the military, served in the military, and/or had family in the military. Most of the men in my family have served, but none were lifers. As for myself, I served my country as an active duty Medic/EMT for eight years.



Being a military veteran does not make me better then anyone else. I am not thumbing my nose at anyone who has never served, but what UFOash said sums it up.



I would really like to know if Ser Jory was of noble birth, though . . . lol

[TJPags]

Kernel Cinders wrote...
A) By all means . . .
The Grey Wardens of Ferelden serve the King of Ferelden. They belong to the order of Grey Wardens in the Kingdom of Ferelden. Two completely different things.
C) Amongst royalty and the nobility it is. It's also referred to as hereditary title, and last time I checked, knighthood was a title. That's why the word "Ser" is added before their name once they have become a knight, or did you think it was just something Jory did to sound important? Ser Jory never did an honest day's work in his life. His attitude, comments, and behavior are that of a spoiled child. Based on the limited information in the game, Ser Jory was of noble blood. He wouldn't have lasted a month working as someone's squire.
D) You cannot become a knight without being knighted and there is always a ritual of some sort involved when a new knight is being inducted into an order of knights. As for vows, I agree with you. It depends on the order being joined when one is knighted, but there is always someone that the knight must swear to serve, and by doing so, they are swearing to serve the King of Ferelden. The Arl of Redcliffe is most likely the one who granted Ser Jory his knighthood, and the Arl serves the King of Ferelden, does he not? And yes, Ser Jory is from Redcliffe. He even says "I hail from Redcliffe, but I was serving in Highever when Duncan recruited me." We can mince words all night, but I'd bet that Ser Jory grew up in Redcliffe and his family is in Redcliffe. Why else would he want his wife and child to come back with him to Redcliffe? The town reeks of rotten fish. I can't say I blame Helen for not wanting to live in Redcliffe.

1. Indeed it does, as the Arl of Redcliffe is the most likely person to have knighted him in the first place and the Arl serves the King of Ferelden. If you are a knight in someone's retinue, that means you are serving that man, and last time I checked, if a knight is in someone's service, then that someone is their lord. The Arl of Redcliffe fits that description rather well.
2. Ser Jory says he was stationed in Redcliffe. Talk to him after he joins you and Alistair in Ostagar.
3. Ser Jory also says that the Arl gave him leave to serve in Highever and he was trying to convince his wife to come back to Redcliffe with him when he was recruited by Duncan after winning the Grand Melee at the tournament given by the Bann of Highever in honor of Duncan. That doesn't mean he wasn't the Arl of Redcliffe's knight anymore. That just means he was stationed in Highever.
4. You do realize that knights can serve anywhere in the Kingdom of Ferelden, right? The Grey Wardens, along with everyone else in the Kingdom of Ferelden, serve the King of Ferelden. It's a system of government called monarchy. If you disagree with my conclusion that Ferelden is a monarchy, then tell me what system of government it is. I'm all ears.
5. Ser Jory was invited, not conscripted. He voluntarily joined the Grey Wardens, and he even says how hard it was to impress Duncan enough to invite him to join the Grey Wardens. Once he agreed to join the Grey Wardens, Duncan was his new lord, and in order for Duncan to become his new lord, he had to get permission to leave his old lord so that he could join the Grey Wardens, otherwise he would have been tracked down, arrested, and hanged for desertion shortly after leaving his post in Highever.
6. Ser Jory was never a knight-errant. His first lord was the Arl of Redcliffe, and then he became a recruit of the Grey Wardens. He hadn't gone through the Joining yet, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a Grey Warden. He was a recruit of the Grey Wardens who had yet to be confirmed through the Joining and Duncan was his lord. He also had to follow any orders given by Alistair while they went to the Kocari Wilds.
7. By drawing his weapon, his life and honor were forfeit. Duncan gave him a chance to put his sword back, but he didn't, and Duncan killed him. Even if he hadn't drawn his sword against Duncan, he would have died for refusing his lord. Why is this concept so difficult to understand?
8. He committed high treason which is punishable by death. Even in modern-day society, most countries consider high treason a very bad thing.

A)Okay, I'm going to try this one more time
B)You're wrong.  Go read the wiki, the books, and listen to the game.  They do NOT serve the King.  It's that simple.
C)Nobility is, usually, hereditary.  Knighthood is not, although I grant that children of knights have an easier time becoming knights, as it's easier for them to be accepted into the necessary training.  Children of nobles also meet that "have it easier" mark.  But knighthood, in and of itself, is NOT HEREDITARY.  Hereditary implies you need do nothing more than be born to assume that role - which is false, a knight must still meet requirements and be knighted.  Therefore, it is NOT hereditary.  "Ser" (which usually denoted a female, btw, the male is "Sir") does indeed indicate someone who is a knight - but that knight does not necessarily have any other title.  And there is nothing in the game to indicate he was of noble blood - which is DIFFERENT than being a knight.
D)Any knight can make a knight.  You don't need to be a king, duke, count, or lord of any kind - just be a knight, and you can make someone a knight.  Knights do not need to swear to serve a specific person - you're wrong there.  But, even if they DID, that just makes your argument sillier - Eamon has no right to "station" one of his "sworn men" in Highever, or to 'make' the ruler of Highever (again, a Teryn, NOT a bann) accept that person in service.  And again, even if Jory DID swear to serve Eamon, he did NOT swear to serve the King  - as, for example, Eamon could rebell AGAINST the king, and Jory would be honor bound to follow EAMON in that rebellion.  I never said he wasn't FROM Redcliffe, never said he didn't SERVE in Redcliffe, so please, confine your argument to the points I am actually arguing.

1) We don't know who knighted him.  Could have been any one of Eamon's knights, or someone else's knight.
2)He served in Eamons retinue, then was given leave to serve in Highever.  What's your point?
3)For the last time, it's the TERYN of HIghever, NOT the BANN.  Please get that right next time.  And again, The Arl of Redcliffe has no authority to force the Teryn of Highever to 'let' someone serve him.  Not the way it works, buddy.
4)I don't care what kind of government rules Ferelden.  Grey Wardens do NOT serve the King of Ferelden.  This seems to be your constant fatal flaw.
5)Jory (perhaps) served Eamon of Redcliffe.  When he served in Highever, he was allowed to leave Eamons service and swear service to Highever, with the consent of it's Teryn.  When he became a Grey Warden, he gave up that service - whether to Eamon or Bryce Cousland - by necesity, since he CAN NOT BE A GREY WARDEN and still somehow follow the orders of or serve someone else!!!  That makes him a knight-errant, which is a knight sworn to no lord - look it up.  Duncan was not his lord.  Duncan wasn't a lord!!!!
6)Duncan wasn't a lord of anything, and he sure as hell wasn't Jory's lord.  Warden-Commander of Ferelden, yes.  Lord anything?  No.  So, again, knight-errant.
7)He broke the rules of the Grey Wardens - that's it.  Duncan killed him either for breaking those rules, or to protect the Joining, or a combination of both.
8)Nothing Jory did constitutes High Treason, unless you have a VERY odd definition, or you're still somehow stuck on the fact that Grey Wardens serve the king of Ferelden.  Which they don't.

So, yea, didn't serve the king, Duncan wasn't his lord, it wasn't high treason, it wasn't a death sentence, except for the wardens.  And I continue to assert he was killed to protect the Joining - he would have been killed if he had tried to walk away, and never drew his sword.

[Kernel Cinders]

To TJPags:

Are you done arguing yet? You and I will simply have to agree to disagree, but don't tell me my opinions are wrong and yours are right. I could care less what you have read, and stop arguing about the Bann/Teryn of Highever already. Ser Jory says the Bann of Highever held the tournament in honor of Duncan. The Teryn of Highever is never mentioned in the conversation.

These replies are getting too long and it's starting to give me eyestrain.


To Dhanik, the OP:

I would have loved to see Duncan decapitate him in the clip-scene. I probably would have stood up and cheered! 

Modifié par Kernel Cinders, 02 octobre 2010 - 04:09 .

[Monica21]

Kernel Cinders wrote...

To TJPags:

Are you done arguing yet? You and I will simply have to agree to disagree, but don't tell me my opinions are wrong and yours are right. I could care less what you have read...

What you consider to be your "opinion" can be refuted with actual fact, especially with regard to the Grey Wardens' allegiances, both in-game and out-game. Therefore your "opinion" is wrong.

Modifié par Monica21, 02 octobre 2010 - 04:23 .

[Kernel Cinders]

History is written by those who have conquered and those that forget the past are condemned to repeat it.

Moving on . . .

[Monica21]

Kernel Cinders wrote...

History is written by those who have conquered and those that forget the past are condemned to repeat it.

Moving on . . .

And that has exactly what to do with your contention that the Grey Wardens are subjects of the King of Ferelden?

[UFOash]

Getting back to basics here...

Whether the wardens serve the king or not, A lowly recruit Grey Warden (and while he wasn't "a grey warden" yet as he hadn't done the joining, he was still aligned with the Grey Wardens, like Mhairi was) serves his commanding officer.

Whoever is at the top its clear Duncan is the commanding officer of the recruits & Alistair, no matter who is above Duncan.

• Jory wouldn't drink the vial, but he knew about the joining, this secret cannot be spread
  
  
• Jory drew is weapon on a commanding officer (don't go on about the king again, plain knights don't serve the king directly anyway), a grave insult & unnacceptable behaviour for one expected to save Thedas from inhuman creatures

Duncan is no stranger to death, better & braver people have died through no fault of their own in the joining, such a fool as to do the things listed above is no loss to the world.

Remember the setting by the way, Apostates are hanged or beheaded for not wanting to spend their days cooped up in a tower, drawing sword on your superior is unacceptable and in the times it warrants death (even by the times of WWI & WWII people were still being shot or hung for desertion or betrayal, by all nations).

Modifié par UFOash, 02 octobre 2010 - 11:41 .

[Janni-in-VA]

Obadiah wrote...

Here's thing: the Ash Warrior Leader that you speak to in Ostagar before the first battle (how come that voice actor isn't in more of the game?) says that certain people do not die from the darkspawn taint infections gained during battle and gain a resistance, but the taint overtakes them eventually.

That comment takes place while your PC is discussing the Mabari the Ash Warriors fight alongside.  They aren't discussing people.  It's made very clear in the game that a tainted human will become a ghoul in short order if they don't die immediately.  (See the Dalish elf origin.)  This is the reason the blood for the Joining is prepared so carefully by mages.

[TJPags]

Kernel Cinders wrote...

To TJPags:

Are you done arguing yet? You and I will simply have to agree to disagree, but don't tell me my opinions are wrong and yours are right. I could care less what you have read, and stop arguing about the Bann/Teryn of Highever already. Ser Jory says the Bann of Highever held the tournament in honor of Duncan. The Teryn of Highever is never mentioned in the conversation.

These replies are getting too long and it's starting to give me eyestrain.


To Dhanik, the OP:

I would have loved to see Duncan decapitate him in the clip-scene. I probably would have stood up and cheered! 

Okay, you have the Bann of HIghever, and whatever else you want. 

I'll have the game itself.

Deal?  good. 

[Kernel Cinders]

To TJPags



Yes, yes, carry on good Ser! I'm going to update my profile picture with the words "Semper Paratus" on the bottom just to annoy everyone. My profile is starting to shape up, though. You've inspired me to new heights. If I'm going to be annoying, I'm going all the way, plus I'm a d0rf.



P.S.: Yes, I truly am an Elf-Hater, not just in DA, but pretty much in any game where elves can be played by players. PK'ing "innocent elves" always makes my day, but killing inkies is heaven. /chuckle