32 réponses à ce sujet

[swk3000]

I'm nearly finished with my ME1 run-through, and I decided that I would use the character I created to run through ME2 and import her to ME3. Now, as I was thinking about my build for ME2, the thought randomly occured to me: why do we have to evolve Adrenaline Rush so early in the game? A level one AR is still a powerful tool, and the return for the points invested is actually very minor. It seems to me that a Soldier would be better served putting those 9 points elsewhere. For example, if I want my squad to have Squad Cryo Ammo, the 9 points I would have spent on getting AR to Level 4 would give me Level 2 Disruptor Ammo, Level 2 Incendiary Ammo, and Level 2 Cryo Ammo, and I'd be about one level away from being able to get any one of those to Level 3. To me, that seems to be a far better return than -2 seconds of cooldown time and an evolution.

Don't get me wrong; I understand how useful both Heightened and Hardened AR are. It just seems to me that getting Squad Incendiary Ammo or Squad Cryo Ammo would be much more useful in the early stages of the game.

[Bozorgmehr]

AR is everything for Soldiers, you don't have to evolve it straight to level 4, but first 3 levels will reduce AR cooldown, so you can use it more often. In the end you don't need AR at all, but it makes things easier and it is a lot of fun using it. Whenever I play Soldier, I put some points in AR first, work on passive next and look into ammo powers last (you can always use Grunt/Jacob or Zaeed early game).

[termokanden]

1 second less cooldown time may not seem like a lot, but if you like most soldiers basically spam AR then it's absolutely huge.

The final evolution also makes a big difference. 50% damage reduction during AR? Awesome. More time dilation? Also great.

To me this makes a much bigger difference as I rely on my own shooting more than everything else. I always evolve the passive and class special skill first.

Modifié par termokanden, 28 septembre 2010 - 11:04 .

[swk3000]

I'm not saying you should never put any points in it. However, wouldn't the increased CC of, say, Squad Cryo Ammo be much more useful? Especially in the early game, when the weapons don't have some of the better upgrades?

[AntiChri5]

You dont really need them cc'd if you have a high adrenaline rush though.

[Kronner]

No way. AR is better than all ammos combined.

You can get early squad Inferno from squadmates anyways.

[swn32]

Mattock + Heightened AR is all the CC you should need.

[termokanden]

I don't think they're more useful than improving the skill I'm spamming as much as possible.



As was suggested above, you could bring squaddies with ammo in the beginning.

[Urazz]

swk3000 wrote...

I'm not saying you should never put any points in it. However, wouldn't the increased CC of, say, Squad Cryo Ammo be much more useful? Especially in the early game, when the weapons don't have some of the better upgrades?

Depends on the difficulty.  On hardcore and Insanity everything has some sort of defense first so you'll have to strip that off enemies first.

Personally, you get AR to level 3 at least as soon as possible since it's the biggest damage increase you can get in game as a soldier.

Modifié par Urazz, 28 septembre 2010 - 01:19 .

[kiltysue]

I'm doing my first soldier/insanity playthrough after many insanity adept/sentinel/vanguard runs. It's a real eye-opener. I really enjoy squad-cryo, just because it's fun. Same for incend. However, heightened AR plus soldier passive are so incredibly good... I can hardly believe it's insanity mode. I often have to re-check to make sure it's not on an easy mode. Early on, pick up your appropriate ammo-power from a squad-mate. Be aggressive, use squad powers, place them so they can apply weapon dps from safety. Use AR to flank, keep re-positioning your squad-mates.



Then again, you're so powerful with Heightened AR and passive, your squad is probably just a nice bonus.

[JaegerBane]

You're just gimping yourself by slacking on building up Adrenaline Rush. It's the prime reason to play a soldier.

[sinosleep]

I think you are better off with lvl 4 squad ammo from a team mate than you are with lvl 2 of your own. So I tend to go for full AR and passive while using Jacob/Grunt's incendiary or Zaeed's disrupter until I have my own ammo powers up to snuff.

[RGFrog]

^^^^ this

[swk3000]

I see where everyone is coming from, but the point that sinosleep put forward, while perfectly valid, is also the point. The Squad Cryo setup is widely regarded as one of the better ones because of the CC value it adds. Unfortunately, by the time the Soldier is able to start using it, the game is over, and there's no real point in it anymore. In fact, despite having the widest selection of Ammo Powers, the Soldier actually can't use them because he's too busy working on Adrenaline Rush. Even after that, the sheer number of points needed to get the Squad Cryo setup going means you get it when the game is over. And all because of one power.



Maybe when I do my Soldier run, I'll make it a point to not use Adrenaline Rush. Sure, I'll be screwing myself out of a lot of damage output, but it will give me more incentive to learn the class that much better.



Obviously, I'm just being weird. Sorry for bothering everyone.

[sinosleep]

You aren't bothering anyone, swk3000, you're just suggesting something that's going against a well established standard. I think if I was willing to sacrifice either AR or the passive, I'd go with the passive instead. It tops out at 15% weapon damage which both ammo powers and AR positively crush. The sprint speed is handy, but again, you get a massive sprint speed boost under AR as well. I'm not sure if the power damage actually does anything for AR and your other powers aren't very damaging either so hey, you could stop dropping points in the passive even earlier than you would have with AR. I'd stop at 2 instead of 3 and then go straight for cryo.

* Rank 2
o Health: +20.00%
o Weapon Damage: +6.00%
o Storm Speed: +30.00%
o Paragon/Renegade: +40.00%

Rank 4

Select one of the following Mastery Specializations

Commando

* Your killing intent is ever-present, increasing weapon damage and storm speed, and giving a damage bonus to powers.
o Health: +30.00%
o Weapon Damage: +15.00%
o Storm Speed: +50.00%
o Paragon/Renegade: +70.00%
o Power Damage: +15.00%

Shock Trooper

* Your survival instinct grants you an intense concentration that further increases weapon damage and storm speed, and gives a duration bonus to powers.
o Health: +40.00%
o Weapon Damage: +9.00%
o Storm Speed: +40.00%
o Paragon/Renegade: +100.00%
o Power Duration: +15.00%

Modifié par sinosleep, 28 septembre 2010 - 07:11 .

[swk3000]

sinosleep wrote...

You aren't bothering anyone, swk3000, you're just suggesting something that's going against a well established standard. I think if I was willing to sacrifice either AR or the passive, I'd go with the passive instead. It tops out at 15% weapon damage which both ammo powers and AR positively crush. The sprint speed is handy, but again, you get a massive sprint speed boost under AR as well. I'm not sure if the power damage actually does anything for AR and your other powers aren't very damaging either so hey, you could stop dropping points in the passive even earlier than you would have with AR. I'd stop at 2 instead of 3 and then go straight for cryo.

* Rank 2
o Health: +20.00%
o Weapon Damage: +6.00%
o Storm Speed: +30.00%
o Paragon/Renegade: +40.00%

Rank 4

Select one of the following Mastery Specializations

Commando

* Your killing intent is ever-present, increasing weapon damage and storm speed, and giving a damage bonus to powers.
o Health: +30.00%
o Weapon Damage: +15.00%
o Storm Speed: +50.00%
o Paragon/Renegade: +70.00%
o Power Damage: +15.00%

Shock Trooper

* Your survival instinct grants you an intense concentration that further increases weapon damage and storm speed, and gives a duration bonus to powers.
o Health: +40.00%
o Weapon Damage: +9.00%
o Storm Speed: +40.00%
o Paragon/Renegade: +100.00%
o Power Duration: +15.00%

Actually, Commando does affect Powers. Specifically, Ammo Powers. In fact, the Power Damage ability in general does affect Ammo Powers. If I wanted to, I could run around with Commando and the Blood Dragon Armor, which would give +30% to all my ammo powers. That Rank 2 Incendiary Ammo would do 39% of weapon damage over 3 seconds instead of the 30% it already has. Inferno Ammo would do 78% of weapon damage over 3 seconds instead of 60%. It's not neccessarily an ideal setup by any stretch of the imagination, but it's possible.

[sinosleep]

Either way, I'd rather stop dumping points in the passive early than stop dumping points in adrenaline rush early.

[cruc1al]

The way I see it: Adrenaline rush makes the other abilities of the soldier stand out better. It's not really an ability in its own right; it's a boost to all the other abilities.

- Considering that one of soldier's specialties is having all the weapons, AR is the best way to use those weapons to their fullest potential. I.e. more headshots with snipers, AR's, heavy pistols; less wasted time between targets; closing the distance quickly with shotguns.

- AR boost speed, damage protection and damage bonuses work in unison with passive boost speed, health benefit and damage bonuses

- AR time dilation imrpoves the CC of your ammo powers (e.g. hitting all your heavy pistol cryo rounds instead of just 50 percent).

- Concussive shot sucks, so AR is your only native ability that uses a cooldown; another reason to invest in AR

All this with the same expense evolving an ammo power... It's really quite obvious that AR is the best thing to invest in for soldiers.

Modifié par cruc1al, 28 septembre 2010 - 09:56 .

[kiltysue]

If you really want squad cryo in early game, just do a second NG+ soldier. It will still be plenty challenging. Levelling a character up from low points is fun, but there's a lot to be said for NG+. I actually prefer it, but starting from low level is also fun.

[Alamar2078]

I may not do an optimal build but I like going AR first. I can borrow ammo powers from teammates just fine. When AR is maxed I often go passive, Ammo powers next, then finally a point into Concussive Blast for the lols

I've never been a fan of squad cryo but everything has its uses and many people swear by it.

Edit:  Unless I haven't played the class at all I always do NG+.  This makes those early missions where you don't [IIRC] have all your uber weapons / upgrades / etc. challenging.

BTW:  Yes I do consider AR to be a "be all, end all" sort of skill.  I do this so much that I refuse to take any bonus powers that have cooldown times that would interfere with my next AR.

Modifié par Alamar2078, 01 octobre 2010 - 02:48 .

[swn32]

Alamar2078 wrote...

I may not do an optimal build but I like going AR first. I can borrow ammo powers from teammates just fine.

Going AR first is definitely an optimal build.

BTW:  Yes I do consider AR to be a "be all, end all" sort of skill.  I do this so much that I refuse to take any bonus powers that have cooldown times that would interfere with my next AR.

Couldn't agree more. Its by far the best talent in the game.

[Ares Caesar]

Like some have said, you could do without it sure, but why? Unless you really think its too easy with it, and want a challenge.



The ability to use fewer bullets, move faster than you should be able to, and get a much higher hit and headshot rate, does typically make it the most valuable skill to have as a Soldier. Unless of course you can line up headshots to perfection without it... then maybe not, but considering even the most skilled players I've seen here, cant do it THAT easily without it (at least quickly and almost always), I'd say it outweighs any other power as a soldier.



Again, you dont "need" it, but it is the most advantageous power to the soldier.

[Dasher10]

So in other words, Ar is better than Cryo? I personally never use it simply since it doesn't have a damage bonus and can't freeze protected targets, plus protected targets usually die easily anyway, making cryo just a weaker version of shredder ammo.

[Anglerfish]

Out of curiosity, why would one want squad cryo rounds? If anything, that seems like a waste of points, considering that only the duration of the freeze is extended by levelling the ammunition before evolving it [all other ammunition types increase the amount of damage they do, enhancing their usefulness to Shepard as you progress to evolved squad ammo]. 

I do not understand why anyone would want to utilise cryogenic ammunition even individually. Its effects are only of use once armour and shielding has been eliminated, which in most cases leaves very little work to do anyway. Armor piercing ammunition or warp ammunition expedites the destruction of defensive layers, leaving the enemy vulnerable to biotic attacks, Avalanche HW or cryo blast - if you even feel the need to use these powers.

By equipping cryo ammo, you force yourself to use rounds that do no additional damage to the more durable layers of enemy hit points for the sake of freezing and weakening your adversaries, despite the fact that as soon as armour and shields/barriers have been removed, the enemy is weak against any number of alternative impediment powers.

Furthermore, many enemies [Harbinger drones, Geth colossi, scions, praetorians, etc] would not be effected in the least by cryo rounds, but would be killed in seconds if armor piercing rounds were used.

I concede that I am a sniper who prefers to utilise tungsten ammunition and the M98 Widow, bringing Legion, Garrus or Thane along to any given mission, utterly destroying my enemies with ammunition-enhanced shots to the head. A shot from the Widow tends to kill enemies through armour, even on the higher difficulties on which I prefer to play.

[MaaZeus]

Anglerfish wrote...

Out of curiosity, why would one want squad cryo rounds? If anything, that seems like a waste of points, considering that only the duration of the freeze is extended by levelling the ammunition before evolving it [all other ammunition types increase the amount of damage they do, enhancing their usefulness to Shepard as you progress to evolved squad ammo]. 

I do not understand why anyone would want to utilise cryogenic ammunition even individually. Its effects are only of use once armour and shielding has been eliminated, which in most cases leaves very little work to do anyway. Armor piercing ammunition or warp ammunition expedites the destruction of defensive layers, leaving the enemy vulnerable to biotic attacks, Avalanche HW or cryo blast - if you even feel the need to use these powers.

By equipping cryo ammo, you force yourself to use rounds that do no additional damage to the more durable layers of enemy hit points for the sake of freezing and weakening your adversaries, despite the fact that as soon as armour and shields/barriers have been removed, the enemy is weak against any number of alternative impediment powers.

Furthermore, many enemies [Harbinger drones, Geth colossi, scions, praetorians, etc] would not be effected in the least by cryo rounds, but would be killed in seconds if armor piercing rounds were used.

I concede that I am a sniper who prefers to utilise tungsten ammunition and the M98 Widow, bringing Legion, Garrus or Thane along to any given mission, utterly destroying my enemies with ammunition-enhanced shots to the head. A shot from the Widow tends to kill enemies through armour, even on the higher difficulties on which I prefer to play.

You are correct. Purely from damage dealing POV squad cryo does not make much sense. You want to dispatch enemies ASAP before they can do enough harm to you. But there are situations where this isnt enough. Not even nearly all enemies have excessive armoring and shielding, and Cryo ammo is very effective against them. Point of squad cryo is to keep all of them away from YOUR back while you yourself have equipped the best damaging ammo you have and cause havoc. Effective with Vanguards. More enemies frozen, less of them are shooting at you and that one person less shooting at you might be all that separates you from being badly damaged versus death. And those frozen guys are easily instakilled too with charge and punch too.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 02 octobre 2010 - 07:21 .