32 réponses à ce sujet

[sinosleep]

Why oh why does the opinion that once enemies hit health they suddenly fall down on their knees and cry uncle persist on these forums? Most enemies in the game have 1:1 health/defenses ratio, many of the blood pack oriented enemies have more health than defenses (verren, krogan, klixen, vorcha) combined with the fact that weapons are keyed to defenses and NOT health it actually regularly takes MORE shooting not less once they've hit health.



As such, since you some classes can't just aoe everything to death, and some players (like me) prefer to forgo cover and simply punch things in the face as often as humanly possible, the added crowd control that squad cryo provides can be helpful. In stead of getting shot at by 4 guys while I'm running and gunning I might only be getting shot at by 2 due to frozen targets. Which I can then later kill with impunity.

[philiposophy]

Enemies only down to health can still kill you. Cryo removes them from the battle completely, and makes finishing them off easier with the damage boost.

[Anglerfish]

MaaZeus wrote...
You are correct. Purely from damage dealing POV squad cryo does not make much sense. You want to dispatch enemies ASAP before they can do enough harm to you. But there are situations where this isnt enough. Not even nearly all enemies have excessive armoring and shielding, and Cryo ammo is very effective against them. Point of squad cryo is to keep all of them away from YOUR back while you yourself have equipped the best damaging ammo you have and cause havoc. Effective with Vanguards. More enemies frozen, less of them are shooting at you and that one person less shooting at you might be all that separates you from being badly damaged versus death. And those frozen guys are easily instakilled too with charge and punch too.

I see how the idea would be good for a vanguard on a difficulty that permits for enemies without armour or shields, but I personally find the vanguard class inefficient compared to a soldier or an infiltrator with shotgun training. I am no Krogan.

Modifié par Anglerfish, 02 octobre 2010 - 07:55 .

[HTTP 404]

swk3000 wrote...

I'm nearly finished with my ME1 run-through, and I decided that I would use the character I created to run through ME2 and import her to ME3. Now, as I was thinking about my build for ME2, the thought randomly occured to me: why do we have to evolve Adrenaline Rush so early in the game? A level one AR is still a powerful tool, and the return for the points invested is actually very minor. It seems to me that a Soldier would be better served putting those 9 points elsewhere. For example, if I want my squad to have Squad Cryo Ammo, the 9 points I would have spent on getting AR to Level 4 would give me Level 2 Disruptor Ammo, Level 2 Incendiary Ammo, and Level 2 Cryo Ammo, and I'd be about one level away from being able to get any one of those to Level 3. To me, that seems to be a far better return than -2 seconds of cooldown time and an evolution.

Don't get me wrong; I understand how useful both Heightened and Hardened AR are. It just seems to me that getting Squad Incendiary Ammo or Squad Cryo Ammo would be much more useful in the early stages of the game.

you should do whatever you feel works the best. but it doesnt hurt to try new ways of playing.

[Ares Caesar]

sinosleep wrote...

Why oh why does the opinion that once enemies hit health they suddenly fall down on their knees and cry uncle persist on these forums? Most enemies in the game have 1:1 health/defenses ratio, many of the blood pack oriented enemies have more health than defenses (verren, krogan, klixen, vorcha) combined with the fact that weapons are keyed to defenses and NOT health it actually regularly takes MORE shooting not less once they've hit health.

As such, since you some classes can't just aoe everything to death, and some players (like me) prefer to forgo cover and simply punch things in the face as often as humanly possible, the added crowd control that squad cryo provides can be helpful. In stead of getting shot at by 4 guys while I'm running and gunning I might only be getting shot at by 2 due to frozen targets. Which I can then later kill with impunity.

Before I started reading these forums and WATCHING people use it, I was one of those people who thought you should use protection based ammo powers... like you say health is 1:1, and most weapons have some sort of bonus to protections, so as long as you're switching weapons for protections, its pretty easy to get protections down quickly. Not to mention half the time if I try switching to the ammo power necessary my squad has already taken down the protection anyway, and then once to health cryo ammo stops guys in their tracks within a second or less usually, taking them out of the battle, as well as increasing damage done to them with subsequent weapon damage. 

My only negative to Cryo Ammo is trying to use it in conjunction with Pull.

Otherwise since reading here and watching others vids I've become a big fan of it, it's heavily increased my survivability. I run into combat look for protected guys shoot down their protections and let my squad do the rest.  I havent played Vanguard yet, but on both my Infiltrator AND Soldier I found it heavily helped in terms of allowing effective CQC and flanking tactics.

I much prefer using that, rather than getting ANOTHER(bonus) ammo power for Soldier/Vanguard/Infiltrator, instead of using something sweet like Neural Shock, Slam, Energy Drain, Reave, Dominate, or GethShield.

Only time it doesnt really help is the bosses/enemies(harbinger, scion) that dont have health. But I'd still rather have it for all the other situations that it DOES kick butt with.

I couldnt imagine not playing with it now.

[sinosleep]

Anglerfish wrote...

I see how the idea would be good for a vanguard on a difficulty that permits for enemies without armour or shields, but I personally find the vanguard class inefficient compared to a soldier or an infiltrator with shotgun training. I am no Krogan.

Actually, you pretty much are a Krogan. Not only does your health regenerate like on every other class, as a vanguard you get a free shield boost and trip into damage boosting melee range every 4.2 seconds. The vanguard is plenty effecient. Just go to youtube and search for ramsenc, kronner, sabresandiego, myself, and plenty of others.

Modifié par sinosleep, 02 octobre 2010 - 08:37 .

[Ares Caesar]

sinosleep wrote...

Anglerfish wrote...

I see how the idea would be good for a vanguard on a difficulty that permits for enemies without armour or shields, but I personally find the vanguard class inefficient compared to a soldier or an infiltrator with shotgun training. I am no Krogan.

Actually, you pretty much are a Krogan. Not only does your health regenerate like on every other class, as a vanguard you get a free shield boost and trip into damage boosting melee range every 4.2 seconds. The vanguard is plenty effecient. Just go to youtube and search for ramsenc, kronner, sabresandiego, myself, and plenty of others.

Listen to sinosleep, he makes Shepard look like a Krogan Battlemaster. "He is pure Krogan, you should be in awe."

Modifié par Ares Caesar, 02 octobre 2010 - 08:45 .

[swn32]

Squad cryo is one of the best crowd control abilities in the game. Your entire squad will be freezing enemies and make short work of the once their defenses are down. Also the fact that you can equip it once and then switch to a different ammo power yourself makes it awesome. Frozen enemies also take +100% more damage. Thats more than what any ammo upgrade does to health (other than heavy warp ammo on targets affected by biotics).

I have done a lot of testing myself and concluded that using the right weapon is much more important than using the right ammo power up. Every weapon has intrinsic + research based damage MULTIPLIERS (not additive like in the case of ammo powers) against specific types of defense. Both these multipliers work upon each other to give a bigger multiplier. For example a widow has a 1.5 multiplier against armor, upon that it gets another 1.5 multiplier via research. This makes up a 2.25 multiplier against armor. Similarly GPS, SMGs have a 2.25 multiplier against shields/barriers.

These multipliers apply to all additive damage upgrades like research damage bonus, headshot bonus, adrenaline rush damage bonus, cloak damage bonus, range damage bonus etc. However it doesnt apply to the damage bonus due to ammo powers. That is calculated seperately directly on the base damage. Only power damage bonuses increase the damage due to ammo powers (which are usually not more than 15-20%).

Ammo powers are best used to make up for the shortcomings of a particular weapon against a particular type of defense. You will notice very little difference in damage against armor if you use a tungsten or inferno ammo on Widow. Same goes with damage against shields/barriers if you use disruptor/warp ammo on Geth Pulse Shotgun. This difference could be significant if you are a millimeter away from OSOKing someone, but otherwise its mostly negligible. However tungsten ammo and Inferno ammo are much more useful on GPS against armor, just like Disruptor/Warp ammo on Widow against shields/barriers.

What I'm saying is that, you can render ammo power damage bonuses more or less redundant if you have access to the right weapon. But since no weapon has any multipliers against health, having your squad quickly freeze defensless enemies is great. This way they cant hurt you, and you can do +100% damage against them or even go upto them and perform a melee attack.

Also note that the probability of freezing enemies depends on the number of hits instead of the damage of each hit. Thus fast firing weapons and shotguns are great with cryo, while snipers and pistols arent. So if you plan to use a slow ROF weapon, you can give your squad cryo ammo while you switch to something else.

I usually build my soldier with priority to heightened AR, then squad Cryo, then inferno (for the panic effect  when used with my Assault Rifle).

Modifié par swn32, 02 octobre 2010 - 09:28 .