354 réponses à ce sujet

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

They do that because they're always isolated and taken care of, or because they are picked on. Or both. Which is Liara, since she's a pure blood on the home world. You're not just born wanting to be alone. It's just how you grew up.

I don't think it matters what caused a person to prefer being alone, what matters is that they do and it makes them happy.

Do I think Liara was as happy as she could be?  No.  Do I think she was happy?  Yes.  You saw how excited she would get when she discussed the Protheans...she loved it.  This made her happy.

Being alone isn't happiness. It just not knowing better, because you're not out of your shell. You're not even going out an living. Why do you think it matters that Shepard visit her, even if he/she's just a friend?

[jlb524]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I'm not sure what you two are disagreeing on, tbh....you seem to both think Liara will be the Shadow Broker in ME3 regardless of a player purchasing and completing LotSB or not, which is the important thing.

I don't think Shepard's involvement really matters. Like I said, it will change one conversation with her, and that's it.

Which is what I'm disagreeing on. As LotSB is a fundamental part of the ME series' narrative, I think that Shepard's involvement and assistance will be canon, regardless of whether the player has played and completed it or not.

This conversation could be used to briefly recap the events of the DLC for those that did not complete it.

The only problem I see with that is the romance....they can't assume that anything happened in LotSB regarding that, and Shepard and Liara decided to continue their romance or not.  This is a minor thing and Liara becoming the SB is much more important, but I think it would be better to assume none of the fluffy romance stuff happened for Shepard's that didn't play LotSB, so they can properly pick it up again in ME3.

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I'm not sure what you two are disagreeing on, tbh....you seem to both think Liara will be the Shadow Broker in ME3 regardless of a player purchasing and completing LotSB or not, which is the important thing.

I don't think Shepard's involvement really matters. Like I said, it will change one conversation with her, and that's it.

Which is what I'm disagreeing on. As LotSB is a fundamental part of the ME series' narrative, I think that Shepard's involvement and assistance will be canon, regardless of whether the player has played and completed it or not.

This conversation could be used to briefly recap the events of the DLC for those that did not complete it.

The only problem I see with that is the romance....they can't assume that anything happened in LotSB regarding that, and Shepard and Liara decided to continue their romance or not.  This is a minor thing and Liara becoming the SB is much more important, but I think it would be better to assume none of the fluffy romance stuff happened for Shepard's that didn't play LotSB, so they can properly pick it up again in ME3.

Yeah, it'd be confusing to go from "being distant" to "being full-on lover", plus being the Shadow Broker at the same time.

[Mox Ruuga]

TMA LIVE wrote...

I'm talking about her being a pure blood on the home world. Though they may have not said so to her face, I bet that didn't make her many friendships. Or any.

I know what you are talking about. But there's nothing in either game that hints at such. A stigma, to be certain, but I'm sure being the daughter of the famed Benezia more than just outweighed that.

It was the expectations based on her parent's rep that she rebelled against, not because she was ostracized. Her choice in profession was cemented by her fascination with the Protheans.

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...



Being alone isn't happiness. It just not knowing better, because you're not out of your shell. You're not even going out an living. Why do you think it matters that Shepard visit her, even if he/she's just a friend?

I don't know about you, but I love my solitude. I'd pick an evening spent alone reading a book over one spent out at a party with a bunch of people I don't know well. This doesn't mean I'm not happy if a very good friend comes to visit me. It's not as black and white as you are making it.



I think you are just thinking of extreme cases of loneliness (like, having absolutely no one around you). I'm sure Liara had friends when she was an archaeologists or colleagues or someone to interact with, but inevitably, it's a job that favors those that love solitude and don't mind being alone for long periods of time (like Liara).

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Being alone isn't happiness. It just not knowing better, because you're not out of your shell. You're not even going out an living. Why do you think it matters that Shepard visit her, even if he/she's just a friend?

I don't know about you, but I love my solitude. I'd pick an evening spent alone reading a book over one spent out at a party with a bunch of people I don't know well. This doesn't mean I'm not happy if a very good friend comes to visit me. It's not as black and white as you are making it.

I think you are just thinking of extreme cases of loneliness (like, having absolutely no one around you). I'm sure Liara had friends when she was an archaeologists or colleagues or someone to interact with, but inevitably, it's a job that favors those that love solitude and don't mind being alone for long periods of time (like Liara).

Yeah, I'm talking about you not being around people at all. Like being in old ruins and away from civilization, and wanting that.

I'm just saying, once she met Shepard, even as a friend, once you get used to being around someone, you need that person in your life, or someone just like them. You enjoy sharing the presence or the conversation of another, and you don't want that to go away.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 05 octobre 2010 - 09:29 .

[jlb524]

Of course, but we were discussing Liara before she met Shepard. And, of course, having a treasured friend is always great, even for people that prefer solitude. I still think Liara can be happy without Shepard, but not nearly as happy with. Happiness isn't a binary on/off switch.



But, back on topic, this is about Liara and her role in ME3 as the Shadow Broker. Or not...I never considered that she would be doing anything else come ME3, as that seems most natural, given LotSB. For those that think she won't be the SB in people's games that didn't play LotSB, what else would she be doing in ME3?

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

Of course, but we were discussing Liara before she met Shepard. And, of course, having a treasured friend is always great, even for people that prefer solitude. I still think Liara can be happy without Shepard, but not nearly as happy with. Happiness isn't a binary on/off switch.

But, back on topic, this is about Liara and her role in ME3 as the Shadow Broker. Or not...I never considered that she would be doing anything else come ME3, as that seems most natural, given LotSB. For those that think she won't be the SB in people's games that didn't play LotSB, what else would she be doing in ME3?

Alright, how about this. If she has kids, do you think she'll continue being the Shadow Broker, considering that involves leaving the base to raise your kids in a pleasant environment?

[bjdbwea]

jlb524 wrote...

But, back on topic, this is about Liara and her role in ME3 as the Shadow Broker. Or not...I never considered that she would be doing anything else come ME3, as that seems most natural, given LotSB. For those that think she won't be the SB in people's games that didn't play LotSB, what else would she be doing in ME3?

Of course Liara will be the SB in any case. The only question is whether the writers will assume that everyone has played LotSB or at least informed themselves about the events, or whether the writers will once again have to work under the guideline "new players might not know what this is about, so sideline / ignore it".

I for one hope that BioWare/EA have finally understood that a trilogy is a trilogy, and that it can and has to be expected from new players to play a trilogy in the correct order, or at least inform themselves about the previous events.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 05 octobre 2010 - 09:35 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

For the last time, default Shep isn't the same as import Shep.

To re-use the better example of Wrex.

Default Shep - Recruited Wrex and killed him on Virmire (because default Wrex never took any of the para/ren skills and always took bottom right or middle right options in the main quests). Due to Wrex being dead, Wreav is in charge of Clan Urdnot and when Shep talks to him, Wreav mentions Wrex.

Import Shep - Could have NOT recruited Wrex and thus even though it marks Wrex as having survived Virmire, this is because Wrex wasn't there. Wrex never went back to Tuchanka though due to not getting the idea after being with Shepard and thus ended up dead. Wreav once again is still Clan leader but doesn't mention Wrex because Shepard didn't kill Wrex.

Thus the same logic will most likely apply to LotSB when it comes to importing to ME3.

Import Shep - Could have NOT done LotSB and it makes sense for Bioware to keep up with the above idea that if Import Shep didn't do something, then it isn't recorded as them doing so.

Default Shep - Could possibly have done LotSB because all DLC stuff is actually classed as 'Main Quests' in ME2 (which kind of throws the idea of default Shep not having recruited Kasumi or Zaeed out the window).

You are right Les, this topic is getting facepalm worthy but it is because you don't seem to grasp that if you played Mass Effect/2, then anything you didn't do, is recorded as Shep not having done it or more to the point, the only thing that will get ticks next to them are stuff you did do. Just because you have LotSB installed doesn't mean it is going to put a tick next to it to say you done it.

So it all then leaves us to guessing whether they'll have it that Liara managed to get some help from someone else to track down the Shadow Broker and still becomes it by start of ME3 (nice roleplay TMA ) or whether they will stick with a more diverged path of the Yahg still being the Shadow Broker and Liara still searching for him.

As for potential ME3 endings, I really hope they don't go anywhere near the cliche ending of Shep + LI dying to save the universe. Whilst part of me wants there to be a death ending, I don't want it to be done in such a fashion where it's a "Someone has to stay to ensure the job is done" scenario or more akin to the aforementioned Shep + LI death, LI dies then Shep gives themselves to the Reapers in exchange for the universe being spared destruction ala Matrix. Naturally I think it needs to be epic but there are plenty of other ways that can be done.

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Alright, how about this. If she has kids, do you think she'll continue being the Shadow Broker, considering
that involves leaving the base to raise your kids in a pleasant environment?

No...I don't think she'd want to put them in danger for one thing.   Someone might do something to one of
them if her identity as the SB was ever comprimised.    The environment is another reason why she wouldn't want to.

I think inevitably, she will give up the position, regardless of having children or not.

bjdbwea wrote...

Of course Liara will be the SB in any case. The only question is whether the writers will assume that everyone has played LotSB or at least informed themselves about the events, or whether the writers will once again have to work under the guideline "new players might not know what this is about, so sideline / ignore it".

I for one hope that BioWare/EA have finally understood that a trilogy is a trilogy, and that it can and has to be expected from new players to play a trilogy in the correct order, or at least inform themselves about the previous events.

Yeah, that's the hang up...we are debating what the writers will add for those that didn't play LotSB (which will probably be the minority of gamers, I think). 

This wouldn't be relevant to new players anyway, as they've never even played ME1 or ME2, let alone LotSB.    I think most people that played ME2, played LotSB.  So, this is why I'm thinking they will just have Liara acting as the SB regardless, and will add in a few more convo bits for those that didn't play LotSB, explaining everything.

Modifié par jlb524, 05 octobre 2010 - 09:40 .

[bjdbwea]

jlb524 wrote...

So, this is why I'm thinking they will just have Liara acting as the SB regardless, and will add in a few more convo bits for those that didn't play LotSB, explaining everything.

Yeah, that would be the most logical way. And it would be easy enough. The only question would be whether LotSB would be required to continue the romance. On the one hand, I am against the concept of making DLC anything but optional. On the other hand, LotSB is great and well worth the price especially for anyone who wants to see the romance continue, so in this particular case I would not mind if they made it a requirement.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 05 octobre 2010 - 09:45 .

[jtav]

I would mind, even though I played it. Not everyone is able to acquire DLC.

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Alright, how about this. If she has kids, do you think she'll continue being the Shadow Broker, considering
that involves leaving the base to raise your kids in a pleasant environment?

No...I don't think she'd want to put them in danger for one thing.   Someone might do something to one of
them if her identity as the SB was ever comprimised.    The environment is another reason why she wouldn't want to.

I think inevitably, she will give up the position, regardless of having children or not.

bjdbwea wrote...

Of course Liara will be the SB in any case. The only question is whether the writers will assume that everyone has played LotSB or at least informed themselves about the events, or whether the writers will once again have to work under the guideline "new players might not know what this is about, so sideline / ignore it".

I for one hope that BioWare/EA have finally understood that a trilogy is a trilogy, and that it can and has to be expected from new players to play a trilogy in the correct order, or at least inform themselves about the previous events.

Yeah, that's the hang up...we are debating what the writers will add for those that didn't play LotSB (which will probably be the minority of gamers, I think). 

This wouldn't be relevant to new players anyway, as they've never even played ME1 or ME2, let alone LotSB.    I think most people that played ME2, played LotSB.  So, this is why I'm thinking they will just have Liara acting as the SB regardless, and will add in a few more convo bits for those that didn't play LotSB, explaining everything.

The problem with the trilogy thing is that parts of the story are DLC, or alternate. Example, some people might have skipped everything about Cerberus in Mass Effect 1, or skipped Garrus, or Conrad, or only played Mass Effect 2 but not the DLC, etc. You got a lot of problems. It's not like a movie or another game, where everything that happened, happened. In Mass Effect's case, things may have not happened, or happened differently.

But since this is story bridging DLC, I think Liara being the Shadow Broker will happen anyways.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 05 octobre 2010 - 09:51 .

[bjdbwea]

jtav wrote...

I would mind, even though I played it. Not everyone is able to acquire DLC.

Well, this DLC debate could fill an entire thread. I'm still pretty much against the whole concept, mostly because the majority of DLCs is nowhere near the quality of LotSB. But if someone likes Liara and her romance, surely they can find a way to purchase and download the DLC. And let's not forget that there will probably be an ME 2 GotY edition (or however they'll call it) with all the DLCs included.

Of course it would be better if the romance in ME 3 did not depend on whether someone played LotSB, but the matter of the fact is that it's a very important piece of the story. So before they once again sideline all previous events because some players have not seen them, I would definitely prefer if the DLC would be a requirement. Though it would still be easily possible to offer a chance to continue the romance as if LotSB had been played.

[TMA LIVE]

bjdbwea wrote...

jtav wrote...

I would mind, even though I played it. Not everyone is able to acquire DLC.

Well, this DLC debate could fill an entire thread. I'm still pretty much against the whole concept, mostly because the majority of DLCs is nowhere near the quality of LotSB. But if someone likes Liara and her romance, surely they can find a way to purchase and download the DLC. And let's not forget that there will probably be an ME 2 GotY edition (or however they'll call it) with all the DLCs included.

I think the people from countries that can't download this DLC might complain. We're not even sure if they'll get an Ultimate Edition. 

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 05 octobre 2010 - 10:14 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

bjdbwea wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

So, this is why I'm thinking they will just have Liara acting as the SB regardless, and will add in a few more convo bits for those that didn't play LotSB, explaining everything.

Yeah, that would be the most logical way. And it would be easy enough. The only question would be whether LotSB would be required to continue the romance. On the one hand, I am against the concept of making DLC anything but optional. On the other hand, LotSB is great and well worth the price especially for anyone who wants to see the romance continue, so in this particular case I would not mind if they made it a requirement.

I doubt that they would make playing the DLC as a requirement for continuing the romance. As Jtav stated, not everyone has access to DLC. That being said I think it will have an effect on it naturally because there is the whole potential discussion with her on the Normandy.

You have made me think about how pre-ME2 release when Casey was talking about how there might be ramifications for cheating on an ME LI, from what I've seen of LotSB, there doesn't seem to be much said about it, I believe you just get to choose (if ME2 LI is alive) which you want to remain with. But then again that is another case of us 'interpreting what a dev has said as being something that it isn't.'. Having said that, I would imagine it easier for them to be having Liara know if Shep cheated on her or not rather than Ash/Kaidan, so their reaction might be different, even though I am curious as to how they are going to find out (unless Joker tells them).

I can't wait to get my PC fixed so I can get round to DLing LotSB and playing it with my various Shepards (apart from the one who don't like Liara), am intrigued as to how she reacts if you cheated on her but the ME2 LI is dead. I had a FemShep that cheated on her with Thane who ended up getting impaled on the Normandy as I didn't upgrade the cannons (this Shep didn't like Garrus, so never spoke to him after getting him on the ship, then sent him to his death in the Vents ).

[TMA LIVE]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

So, this is why I'm thinking they will just have Liara acting as the SB regardless, and will add in a few more convo bits for those that didn't play LotSB, explaining everything.

Yeah, that would be the most logical way. And it would be easy enough. The only question would be whether LotSB would be required to continue the romance. On the one hand, I am against the concept of making DLC anything but optional. On the other hand, LotSB is great and well worth the price especially for anyone who wants to see the romance continue, so in this particular case I would not mind if they made it a requirement.

I can't wait to get my PC fixed so I can get round to DLing LotSB and playing it with my various Shepards (apart from the one who don't like Liara), am intrigued as to how she reacts if you cheated on her but the ME2 LI is dead. I had a FemShep that cheated on her with Thane who ended up getting impaled on the Normandy as I didn't upgrade the cannons (this Shep didn't like Garrus, so never spoke to him after getting him on the ship, then sent him to his death in the Vents ).

As far as I'm aware, she talks about them as if they're still alive... I guess they didn't think that far ahead. Pretty much, she knows you're with someone else. However, she doesn't have a problem with that unless you start asking her "about us", as if you still have romance feelings for her. Then she gets pissed. But if you continue the friendship path, again she's ok with you moving on. However, hug her and kiss her will make her wish to continue the romance with you.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 05 octobre 2010 - 10:20 .

[TMA LIVE]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Whatever, Ulrich. You can't seem to understand that the events of LotSB are a part of the ME series' narrative, comparable to that of Therum, Noveria, Feros, Virmire, Ilos or the Citadel. There's a reason as to why it is called story bridging DLC...it's canonical. Wrex's recruitment is not, and never was. I believe that if a ME2 save is imported into ME3 without LotSB completed, that area of the game and story will become a "Default Shepard" playthrough. Whereas the rest of your playthrough will be custom, imported Shep, due to the fact that LotSB was not completed, the story surrounding Liara and the Shadow Broker will be assumed to be a "Default Shepard" playthrough, and Shepard would have played it regardless. Your comparison with Wrex holds no water, as he is completely avoidable. LotSB, as a canonical part of the narrative, is not. As has been shown with ME2...you miss out on important story elements, you get default choices. Wrex's recruitment is not an important story element. Shepard helping Liara take down the Shadow Broker is.

What important story elements in Mass Effect 1 turn into default choices if you didn't do them, but imported?

[Kreid]

In a certain thread Christina Norman said that regardless of whether you buy LotSB and play it Liara will still be the SB in ME3, as not only all DLC is considered canon but also, LotSB in particular affects the ME universe as a whole pretty significantly.

[Gilbert Salarian]

TMA LIVE wrote...

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Whatever, Ulrich. You can't seem to understand that the events of LotSB are a part of the ME series' narrative, comparable to that of Therum, Noveria, Feros, Virmire, Ilos or the Citadel. There's a reason as to why it is called story bridging DLC...it's canonical. Wrex's recruitment is not, and never was. I believe that if a ME2 save is imported into ME3 without LotSB completed, that area of the game and story will become a "Default Shepard" playthrough. Whereas the rest of your playthrough will be custom, imported Shep, due to the fact that LotSB was not completed, the story surrounding Liara and the Shadow Broker will be assumed to be a "Default Shepard" playthrough, and Shepard would have played it regardless. Your comparison with Wrex holds no water, as he is completely avoidable. LotSB, as a canonical part of the narrative, is not. As has been shown with ME2...you miss out on important story elements, you get default choices. Wrex's recruitment is not an important story element. Shepard helping Liara take down the Shadow Broker is.

What important story elements in Mass Effect 1 turn into default choices if you didn't do them, but imported?

If you didn't play through Bring Down the Sky but imported your Shepard, the 'Default Shepard' choice was to kill the terrorist and let Kate Bowman die.  If you listen to the news feed on the Citadel in ME2 you hear of the candlelight vigil to honor the colonists' deaths.

Modifié par Gilbert Salarian, 05 octobre 2010 - 10:42 .

[TMA LIVE]

Gilbert Salarian wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Whatever, Ulrich. You can't seem to understand that the events of LotSB are a part of the ME series' narrative, comparable to that of Therum, Noveria, Feros, Virmire, Ilos or the Citadel. There's a reason as to why it is called story bridging DLC...it's canonical. Wrex's recruitment is not, and never was. I believe that if a ME2 save is imported into ME3 without LotSB completed, that area of the game and story will become a "Default Shepard" playthrough. Whereas the rest of your playthrough will be custom, imported Shep, due to the fact that LotSB was not completed, the story surrounding Liara and the Shadow Broker will be assumed to be a "Default Shepard" playthrough, and Shepard would have played it regardless. Your comparison with Wrex holds no water, as he is completely avoidable. LotSB, as a canonical part of the narrative, is not. As has been shown with ME2...you miss out on important story elements, you get default choices. Wrex's recruitment is not an important story element. Shepard helping Liara take down the Shadow Broker is.

What important story elements in Mass Effect 1 turn into default choices if you didn't do them, but imported?

If you didn't play through Bring Down the Sky but imported your Shepard, the 'Default Shepard' choice was to kill the terrorist and let Kate Bowman die.  If you listen to the news feed on the Citadel in ME2 you hear of the candlelight vigil to honor the colonists' deaths.

I don't consider that an important story element, and again it doesn't mention Shepard's involvement. Is there another example?

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 05 octobre 2010 - 10:58 .