304 réponses à ce sujet

[Zan Mura]

swn32 wrote...

None of the classes are weak, since this is an easy game. But some classes are simply more powerful that others.

Well that's just something one should take for granted in any game. But to me that spells variation, not imbalance. Only when one balance becomes downright frustratingly difficult compared to another, does it spell problem in my opinion.

For instance, playing adepts is way more difficult than soldiers in hardcore - insanity. But that's only because soldiers reward basic FPS twitching and shooting, and fit the kind of person who's used to rush, point and click. Adepts on the other hand are heaps more satisfying, as they suit someone with a more tactical mind. I have a friend who sucks with a soldier, because he's not good with FPS games. But he's quite ok with an adept.

Similarly, vanguards and infiltrators have their own particular weaknesses and strengths. It's hard to compare them on an even level because they just play differently. I would also claim that most of an engineer's claimed uselessness comes from their nature. People love warriors, they love mages, they love rogues. But an engineer? The very name, the concept of some hacker is just far less epic and appealing to the general public than the other classes. They have plenty of very useful skills though, and there are vids showing engineers in their might being every bit as powerful as any other class.

[swn32]

The engineer class doesn't even compare to how powerful a mattock/widow/gps soldier. Even on insanity it feels like Casual with a soldier. Engineer on the other hand, has to play tactically and fights are longer. Even those videos which you are talking about, they really don't show how engineers are as powerful as soldiers.

[Kronner]

Powerful in what sense? Fastest? Least cover? Most shots fired?
I enjoy Soldier more than Engineer, but I would not call it more powerful. Easier to play at first? Sure.

Modifié par Kronner, 29 septembre 2010 - 09:21 .

[Bozorgmehr]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i know bonus powers exist. the key word i meant was stasis AND slam on the adept. dont you think an adept in ME2 should atleast have th ability to use singularity, stasis, and warp ammo? im not even including reave or
barrier and those are things that an adept should be able to use. you agree an adept should be a biotic specialist, but a biotic cant use all the biotics because of one reason, class restrictions.

ME2 allows the use of squadies. Playing Adept you can pick Stasis bonus power, bring along Jack to provide Warp Ammo and Samara for Reave. Now you can use all biotic powers you're talking about (Slam is worthless since Adepts already have Throw and Pull) - even better, you can use all these powers to setup devastating combos:

Samara Reave to strip enemy armor or barriers, Pull them using Jack and finish them with Shep's Warp.

swn32 wrote...

Its not like the classes in mass effect 2 are balanced anyways.

I think classes are pretty well balanced, even on Insanity. I'm talking about killing power here, not ease of play. Some classes require a bit of practice to get the most out of them - but all classes are very powerful and can be played with extreme aggression.

RGFrog wrote...

I agree, a biotic should be able to be a biotic and not split hairs over what "power" they choose. Perhaps instead of the seperate classes, the biotic should just be able to choose a la carte. You could max as many as 3 powers. But if you start taking more, you're penalized by only being able to get to level 2 with them all regardless of how many points you have.

Good point. The ability to use more (or all) biotic powers playing Adept would make things a lot harder for newcomers. In DAO you can play a Mage and you've got access to all magical powers, but you can't have all (not enough skill points available). It's much better to specialize in a couple of abilities and level them to make them strong rather than picking something of everything and end up with a versatile but very weak character.

swn32 wrote...

The engineer class doesn't even compare to how powerful a mattock/widow/gps soldier. Even on insanity it feels likeCasual with a soldier. Engineer on the other hand, has to play tactically and fights are longer. Even those videos which you are talking about, they really don't show how engineers are as powerful as soldiers.

Everybody seems to compare other classes to Soldiers, never understanded why. Soldiers are very powerful, but I can clear levels on par or faster playing an Adept (Insanity) than most people can playing Soldier. Not that something like this matters, its a single player game anyway. But even if some classes (or perhaps it's better to say, playstyles) are a little behind in pure killing speed - they make up for it in fun. I enjoy tearing a place down using biotics much more than spamming AR and shoot everything.

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 29 septembre 2010 - 09:20 .

[swn32]

The point of comparing them to soldier is to argue against people who say all classes are balanced. Hell, you can dodge bullets and get a +140% damage boost on your weapons every 3 seconds. How is that not imbalanced. The argument here is classes in the game arent balanced the way they are, so why even have classes instead of what the OP suggested.

[Kronner]

The reason for predefined classes is that you do not have 5 uber powers on every build. class to class comparison is subjective anyways.

Modifié par Kronner, 29 septembre 2010 - 09:57 .

[swn32]

They can always classify the powers and make you choose between subgroups so you never end up choosing only the best powers in the game.

Modifié par swn32, 29 septembre 2010 - 10:00 .

[Mister Mida]

classes should stay, but it would be nice if Bioware gave us more choice into how we want to play that class by i.e. swap powers/talents. Like with a Vanguard you'd be able to pick three soldier talents and three biotic talents.

[swn32]

What if someone wants 2 of combat/biotics/tech?

[Bozorgmehr]

I'm not sure I understand. Yes Soldiers can use AR every 3 s, and yes it is a powerful ability, but I don't see what this has to do with balance. The way I interpret your reply has more to do with difficulty than balance.



I consider balance to be more about what powers and abilities all classes can use and if those abilities are offering equal opportunities to play ME2. Overall I believe Bioware did a fine job with the class system in ME2, lots of variation and players are more or less forced to play those classes as intended by the devs. Like I said before, I would like some customization what powers to take, but the core system should remain. So for example, Adepts always have Singularity, Pull and Warp. But they can chose other powers, so instead of Throw, they can take Slam. Or instead of Shockwave they can use Warp Ammo. Such a system would work for the caster classes, but not on Soldiers. They have nothing to chose, they already have all powers that rpg wise could fit Soldier class. Maybe that's the reason Bioware locked class specific powers, but added the bonus power system for some additional flexibility.

[swn32]

The fact that you can spam AR every 3 seconds makes it very OP. Your movement speed isnt affected, you can get the full base DPS of 290 with the Mattock (highest in the game for any weapon by a huge margin), you dont have to bother with defense powers since you can dodge enemy fire or find cover quickly, you also take less damage if you went the hardened way. Having this power makes insanity runs as easy as casual. If the difficulty of the game depends on which class you choose, then the classes are unbalanced. I'm not saying one is easy other is hard. Im saying both are easy, but one of them is way easier.

On Topic, locking powers to a class is not something i prefer. I want to have my own custom build. Not something OP but something that perfectly fits my playstyle and is well balanced with what someone else wouldve chosen.

Modifié par swn32, 29 septembre 2010 - 10:21 .

[JaegerBane]

I'm not against classes per se, but I agree, I do like a bit of customisation and player input on how the class plays as oppose to a set of pre-packaged skills wrapped together. In my opinion the ME2 classes were *far* too restrictive. The player is confronted with limits and constraints from the get go and it, ultimately, reduces the potential level of satisfaction that a player could have. Hell, in order to get the *same* gameplay I enjoyed from ME1 as my old Vanguard, I had to mod the hell out of the Adept class. 

That said, though, most classes can be played in at least two, or even three, distinct styles in such a way that doesn't affect their potency, and the bonus skill system and weapon upgrades do at least offer some player choice. The only class I genuinely felt had only one way of playing the class properly was the Vanguard - but that was due to the fact that it had a very focused class power combined with a god-awful set of other powers which didn't mesh or co-operate properly at all, and not the the focus of this thread.

Frankly the best class system I've seen so far is the one in Dragon Age, where the class choice ultimately dictates what rough style you play, but requirements on weapons are mostly generic and each class has a number of specialisation choices which allow them to focus on different facets of the class (and even allow a bit of play from another class). ME2 looked like it tried to go there with evolutions, but they just didn't have enough affect on the classes to markedly change their gameplay. Hell, some classes had pointless evolutions.

Oblvion's structure didn't make any sense. Everyone just played Battlemage-Arcane Trickster style classes that just did everything. There wasn't anything stopping you from simulataneously being a thief, assassin, paladin and mage all at the same time. Anyone who actually just tried to RP was crushed.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 29 septembre 2010 - 11:30 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Yeah I would prefer a more DAO style of class-leveling system. In DAO you could start with Warrior class having access to Two-Hander; Sword & Shield; Dual-Wield; and Archery. But to be most effective one must chose, you can't be good at everything (like Oblivion or Fall Out 3). It allows one class to be played completely different and there's also the option to specialize. Bad thing about such a system is some powers are just too weak compared to others and are not being used (often)

I love playing Mage in DAO, but I would be a fool to take Shapeshifting specialization which is simply awful. This will rule out that such a power would be used a lot and makes it a waste of dev-time actually. The ME2 system isn't perfect, but it at least forces players to use all powers available instead of a (very powerful) few. I have to say that powers I considered worthless at first sight turned out to be really effective once one understands how to use them effectively (thinking of Barrier for example )

BTW; I'm currently having fun with an Infiltrator thanks to OniGanon's guide - never believed that class could be played in such a way, Neural Shock rocks!

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 29 septembre 2010 - 12:35 .

[termokanden]

Some people are now saying Shapeshifting CAN actually be useful, but you have to follow quite elaborate guides to get it to work.



I still think it's crap though



In any case, it's hardly fair to say that DAO has only a few powerful abilities that everybody uses. I have put lots of this to the test personally and only really found this to be true for archers.



Back on topic: I would like classes to be a lot more different in ME3 than they are in ME2. I would really like the differences to be bigger than just one class skill, slightly different class passives and selection of common skills. Like more elaborate passive skills that involve more of a choice of direction for your character. Not just "do you want 15% extra duration or 15% extra damage".

[Alamar2078]

Actually I kind of get what the troll is talking about. Instead of a class based game where each class has access to one or two "god" skills he would rather have a game where you can buy whatever basic skills you want through points and then have access to a one or two bonus powers to top things off.



I guess you could have general skills like Warp, Overload, Incineration, etc. ....

You could also have Passive Skills of which you get to choose from one ...

You could also have power skills which you could choose one of Adrenalin Rush, Charge, Cloak, etc.

You could finally have your bonus power like it is now



If it's points based you could even create point penalties if you take skills from the Combat, Engineering, and Biotics trees so that while you can take them you wouldn't have the points to be uber effective at all of them [Jack of all trades ; Master of none]



In the end I think you can have a classless system that is points based and have things work out. You can also have classes and make it work.

[swk3000]

I like the idea that was presented earlier: put each power in a sub-group, then allow the characters to choose powers from each sub-group based on class. So an Infiltrator would be able to choose both Combat abilities and Tech Abilities, but not Biotic abilities. It would give a larger degree of customization, while still keeping to the general idea of each class. And you could also put a limit: if we have 6 power slots available, then an Infiltrator would have to choose at least 2 Tech Powers and 2 Combat Powers. It's a little more restricting, but it makes sure that an Infiltrator doesn't end up running as a Soldier or Engineer.

[Alamar2078]

Bozorgmehr wrote...
<snip>
The ME2 system isn't perfect, but it at least forces players to use all powers available instead of a (very powerful) few. I have to say that powers I considered worthless at first sight turned out to be really effective once one understands how to use them effectively (thinking of Barrier for example )

I would say in ME2 I use the "spam" skill of each class [Adrenalin Rush, Cloak, Charge, Combat Drone, Singularity] every chance I get.   In that way there are still dramatically overused & underused skills [if your goal is to use each skill fairly often]

[Pacifien]

I agree with the system of powers in sub-groups. Take the Vanguard with Shockwave and Pull. First, I have to put points into Shockwave before I can even get Pull. I don't want Shockwave. Or Infiltrator with AI Hacking. I don't want that either. Better to give me the choice of two tech powers for an Infiltrator, and I'll choose Incinerate and Neural Shock.

To avoid being overpowered or to keep the classes a bit different from each other still, I'd say keep certain specific class powers off the table for other classes. Only an Engineer can pick Combat Drone or AI Hacking, a Sentinel or Infiltrator can't. Only an Adept can have Singularity or Stasis, the other biotic classes can't.

[termokanden]

The spam skills I also consider a weakness of a limited class system. I don't see why you should be able to get away with just using one skill for the whole game.

2h warriors in DAO I think is an example of where it's done right (some people will probably disagree a lot on this, but I'm a 2h fanatic). You need to cycle through your skills or you are weak. If you time your skills wrong, your DPS drops. It's not complicated at all, but it sure is more interested than pressing AR over and over again. No knowledge is requires for this, no planning of characters builds, no real timing (use it as much as possible). It's just not very knowledge or skill based.

However, I don't think there can be interesting power combinations unless they give up on the universal cooldown. Warp bombs are OK, but then you just do that over and over.

Modifié par termokanden, 29 septembre 2010 - 02:17 .

[termokanden]

That's the other way of doing it. The weakness of this system is that if you make one class passive slightly stronger than another, people are going to choose that one every time.

[JaegerBane]

Bozorgmehr wrote...
I love playing Mage in DAO, but I would be a fool to take Shapeshifting specialization which is simply awful. This will rule out that such a power would be used a lot and makes it a waste of dev-time actually. The ME2 system isn't perfect, but it at least forces players to use all powers available instead of a (very powerful) few. I have to say that powers I considered worthless at first sight turned out to be really effective once one understands how to use them effectively (thinking of Barrier for example )

Well, the issue with Shapeshifter in DAO is less to do with powers/spells and more to do with poor design. The specialisation system itself is not at fault there - the problem is that the design team didn't really think through what the Shapeshifter class was supposed to do, and henc they ended up creating a melee class like the Arcane Warrior except it couldn't use any gear or cast spells, which should have rung some warning bells in the designer's heads.

The ME2 system does force people to use their class powers, true, but it does so in a very heavy-handed way, by flatly refusing to allow some classes access to certain powers arbitrarily. That's fine if you want to start refusing access to stuff like AR for an Adept, for example, but that approach also backfires when the class structure isn't fully thought out (the best example being the Vanguard with Shockwave).

[JaegerBane]

Pacifien wrote...

I agree with the system of powers in sub-groups. Take the Vanguard with Shockwave and Pull. First, I have to put points into Shockwave before I can even get Pull. I don't want Shockwave. Or Infiltrator with AI Hacking. I don't want that either. Better to give me the choice of two tech powers for an Infiltrator, and I'll choose Incinerate and Neural Shock.
To avoid being overpowered or to keep the classes a bit different from each other still, I'd say keep certain specific class powers off the table for other classes. Only an Engineer can pick Combat Drone or AI Hacking, a Sentinel or Infiltrator can't. Only an Adept can have Singularity or Stasis, the other biotic classes can't.

I think there is some merit in that, but personally, I prefer the slot idea.

Start with the class. Each class has a passive, a class power, and a selection of biotic, combat and tech slots, the individual numbers of which depend on the class.

So, for instance, a Soldier would have their passive, AR, and four slots for combat powers. An Adept would have passive, Singularity, and four biotic slots, Engineer has passive, Drone and four tech slots.

An Infiltrator would have passive, Cloak, two tech slots and two combat slots. Vanguard would have passive, Charge, two combat and two biotic slots, Sentinel would have passive, tech armour, two tech and two biotic slots.

Obviously, doing it this way would require the Adept to be rebalanced a bit, as the current Adept derives a lot of it's worth from biotic combos rather than what specific powers they have. But other than that, we'd have a situation where people choose their class based on what they want to do but customise it so it can play in the way they prefer it to.