304 réponses à ce sujet

[Bozorgmehr]

termokanden wrote...

Some people are now saying Shapeshifting CAN actually be useful, but you have to follow quite elaborate guides to get it to work.

I still think it's crap though

I haven't played DAO for a while and didn't follow the news - I wonder how to use Shapeshifting exactly though.

In any case, it's hardly fair to say that DAO has only a few powerful abilities that everybody uses. I have put lots of this to the test personally and only really found this to be true for archers.

I never said that, I love the flexiblity of DAO. I meant that Mage specialization is limited; no matter if you're going to fight with a sword or use your staff - Arcane Warrior spec makes a Mage almost indestructable; a musthave.

Without the specializations, Mages could use a wide range of spells working together. My favorite tactic (solo Mage) is to freeze group of enemies, hex them (add vulnerability), use Walking bomb on the guy in the middle and shatter using Stonefist. But there are many other combos using different spells to play effectively - something I think ME2 is lacking. 

Back on topic: I would like classes to be a lot more different in ME3 than they are in ME2. I would really like the differences to be bigger than just one class skill, slightly different class passives and selection of common skills. Like more elaborate passive skills that involve more of a choice of direction for your character. Not just "do you want 15% extra duration or 15% extra damage".

Exactly my point. Bioware could even fix ME2 a little by adding some distinctive armor/gear. Stuff that boost one thing, but gives penalties to other stats. (something that gives a huge power boost, but also increases vulnerablity. Or something boosting armor (or hitpoints) but slows Shep down while moving around for example) - just brainstorming here;)

Alamar2078 wrote...

I would say in ME2 I use the "spam" skill of each class [Adrenalin Rush, Cloak, Charge, Combat Drone,
Singularity] every chance I get.   In that way there are still dramatically overused & underused skills [if your goal is to use each skill fairly often]

That's the good and the bad of ME2. One hand you've got 6 completely different classes, all with there distinctive unique power. But on the other hand there's this global cd system which turns other powers into some extra spice only. This is particullary true for the combat classes, but it applies to the caster classes too only to a lesser extent. I guess that's why I prefer Adept. Singularity will be used a lot, but Pull, Throw, Warp and bonus power will see plenty of action too.

I hope ME3 keeps the distinctive class system (unique powers/abilities) and the wide range of additional powers to chose (like DAO); so we'll still be playing differently depending on class, but without the limitation of ME2.

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 29 septembre 2010 - 02:48 .

[swk3000]

JaegerBane wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

I agree with the system of powers in sub-groups. Take the Vanguard with Shockwave and Pull. First, I have to put points into Shockwave before I can even get Pull. I don't want Shockwave. Or Infiltrator with AI Hacking. I don't want that either. Better to give me the choice of two tech powers for an Infiltrator, and I'll choose Incinerate and Neural Shock.
To avoid being overpowered or to keep the classes a bit different from each other still, I'd say keep certain specific class powers off the table for other classes. Only an Engineer can pick Combat Drone or AI Hacking, a Sentinel or Infiltrator can't. Only an Adept can have Singularity or Stasis, the other biotic classes can't.

I think there is some merit in that, but personally, I prefer the slot idea.

Start with the class. Each class has a passive, a class power, and a selection of biotic, combat and tech slots, the individual numbers of which depend on the class.

So, for instance, a Soldier would have their passive, AR, and four slots for combat powers. An Adept would have passive, Singularity, and four biotic slots, Engineer has passive, Drone and four tech slots.

An Infiltrator would have passive, Cloak, two tech slots and two combat slots. Vanguard would have passive, Charge, two combat and two biotic slots, Sentinel would have passive, tech armour, two tech and two biotic slots.

Obviously, doing it this way would require the Adept to be rebalanced a bit, as the current Adept derives a lot of it's worth from biotic combos rather than what specific powers they have. But other than that, we'd have a situation where people choose their class based on what they want to do but customise it so it can play in the way they prefer it to.

That would be actually be perfect.

[Bozorgmehr]

JaegerBane wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

I agree with the system of powers in sub-groups. Take the Vanguard with Shockwave and Pull. First, I have to put points into Shockwave before I can even get Pull. I don't want Shockwave. Or Infiltrator with AI Hacking. I don't want that either. Better to give me the choice of two tech powers for an Infiltrator, and I'll choose Incinerate and Neural Shock.
To avoid being overpowered or to keep the classes a bit different from each other still, I'd say keep certain specific class powers off the table for other classes. Only an Engineer can pick Combat Drone or AI Hacking, a Sentinel or Infiltrator can't. Only an Adept can have Singularity or Stasis, the other biotic classes can't.

I think there is some merit in that, but personally, I prefer the slot idea.

Start with the class. Each class has a passive, a class power, and a selection of biotic, combat and tech slots, the individual numbers of which depend on the class.

So, for instance, a Soldier would have their passive, AR, and four slots for combat powers. An Adept would have passive, Singularity, and four biotic slots, Engineer has passive, Drone and four tech slots.

An Infiltrator would have passive, Cloak, two tech slots and two combat slots. Vanguard would have passive, Charge, two combat and two biotic slots, Sentinel would have passive, tech armour, two tech and two biotic slots.

Obviously, doing it this way would require the Adept to be rebalanced a bit, as the current Adept derives a lot of it's worth from biotic combos rather than what specific powers they have. But other than that, we'd have a situation where people choose their class based on what they want to do but customise it so it can play in the way they prefer it to.

This would be a better system than the one currently in place though I would remove bonus power completely (bonus powers can still be unlocked, but can only be used creating a new character), no power respec either. You'll have to use same powers/build throughout entire game.

More power combos are most welcome - ME2 is really lacking in this department.

[SmokeyNinjas]

JaegerBane wrote...

Start with the class. Each class has a passive, a class power, and a selection of biotic, combat and tech slots, the individual numbers of which depend on the class.

So, for instance, a Soldier would have their passive, AR, and four slots for combat powers. An Adept would have passive, Singularity, and four biotic slots, Engineer has passive, Drone and four tech slots.

An Infiltrator would have passive, Cloak, two tech slots and two combat slots. Vanguard would have passive, Charge, two combat and two biotic slots, Sentinel would have passive, tech armour, two tech and two biotic slots.

Obviously, doing it this way would require the Adept to be rebalanced a bit, as the current Adept derives a lot of it's worth from biotic combos rather than what specific powers they have. But other than that, we'd have a situation where people choose their class based on what they want to do but customise it so it can play in the way they prefer it to.

Totally agree with this but in addition i'd like the weapons skill be picked in a similar way with all classes having the pistol as sidearm but also be able to pick their own weapon skill from the start of the game on top.

With Adept, Engineer & Sentinel able to pick one, Vanguard & Infiltrator able to pick two, & Soldier have all three (would just stick SMG & AR together)

Modifié par SmokeyNinjas, 29 septembre 2010 - 03:47 .

[sinosleep]

JaegerBane wrote...

I think there is some merit in that, but personally, I prefer the slot idea.

Start with the class. Each class has a passive, a class power, and a selection of biotic, combat and tech slots, the individual numbers of which depend on the class.

So, for instance, a Soldier would have their passive, AR, and four slots for combat powers. An Adept would have passive, Singularity, and four biotic slots, Engineer has passive, Drone and four tech slots.

An Infiltrator would have passive, Cloak, two tech slots and two combat slots. Vanguard would have passive, Charge, two combat and two biotic slots, Sentinel would have passive, tech armour, two tech and two biotic slots.

Obviously, doing it this way would require the Adept to be rebalanced a bit, as the current Adept derives a lot of it's worth from biotic combos rather than what specific powers they have. But other than that, we'd have a situation where people choose their class based on what they want to do but customise it so it can play in the way they prefer it to.

This sounds pretty good. Keeps the class sytems intact but gives the player more choice. I don't have a problem with choice, so long as there is still a class system of some sort at the helm.

[termokanden]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

I never said that, I love the flexiblity of DAO. I meant that Mage specialization is limited; no matter if you're going to fight with a sword or use your staff - Arcane Warrior spec makes a Mage almost indestructable; a musthave.

Oh OK, must have misread your post. Sorry about that.

Without the specializations, Mages could use a wide range of spells working together. My favorite tactic (solo Mage) is to freeze group of enemies, hex them (add vulnerability), use Walking bomb on the guy in the middle and shatter using Stonefist. But there are many other combos using different spells to play effectively - something I think ME2 is lacking. 

Exactly the kind of thing I was thinking about. The combo is much more powerful than the sum of its parts. In fact, Virulent Walking Bomb can be quite hazardous if you use it on its own.

And there are MANY combos you can use. Glyph of Repulsion in a doorway plus AoE is probably my favorite. When Repulsion is about to wear off or if something gets through, Glyph of Paralysis on top of it for paralysis explosion and another wave of AoE.

Exactly my point. Bioware could even fix ME2 a little by adding some distinctive armor/gear. Stuff that boost one thing, but gives penalties to other stats. (something that gives a huge power boost, but also increases vulnerablity. Or something boosting armor (or hitpoints) but slows Shep down while moving around for example) - just brainstorming here;)

Yep. More tradeoffs would be nice. It allows you to specialize and get more unique playthroughs. Doesn't have to involve actual penalties to stats, maybe just more branching in the passive instead of just two evolutions.

Speaking of which, I never understood the idea of giving more of a Renegade/Paragon boost to one of them. It's always the defensive one that gets the better boost (which doesn't fit Renegade so much), but it's not necessarily the best one.

Modifié par termokanden, 29 septembre 2010 - 04:02 .

[lazuli]

JaegerBane wrote...

Start with the class. Each class has a passive, a class power, and a selection of biotic, combat and tech slots, the individual numbers of which depend on the class.

I think this idea has merit, but all of the powers would have to be carefully balanced (hopefully on multiple difficulty levels) so we aren't flooded with rejects like Shockwave and Shredder Ammo (on higher difficulty settings). 

Another thing to consider is how powers that require points in other powers would work.  Would it really be fair for Cryo Ammo to be available without a prerequisite?  What about Pull?  A possible solution would be to have certain powers require you to have invested sufficiently in either your class' signature power or passive.

In the end, as long as the system is clearly thought out and tested, I'm sure whatever we get for ME3 will be satisfactory.  That said, I do hope we get more powers, both for Shepard and for our squadmates, and I hope they interact in many ways.  I can't imagine we'll have to unlock powers for squadmates through loyalty missions anymore, as it seems unlikely that ME3 will feature the same emphasis on building your team's loyalty.

[termokanden]

Will have to disagree with you there. I always disliked how every RPG forces you to choose between the two, because it very rarely makes much of a difference having a very persuasive character.

If it did, then maybe I could understand it.

It's like those games where you can invest a massive amount of points into stealth and then your character will be weak in combat. But usually stealth is still just a nice little bonus and not an actual alternative to fighting.

Modifié par termokanden, 29 septembre 2010 - 04:31 .

[termokanden]

I haven't been following the ME forums that much lately, no chance of figuring that out

[tonnactus]

I am more annoyed by the "unlocking of powers" more then by anything else(shockwave to unlock pull or warp to unlock throw??). And how biotic squadmates become
jokes that are only good in cutscenes. Really,the only formidable crowd controller is liara in her mission. All other squadmates are just enhancements,a pack of walking bonus powers.
But remember what kaidan,liara and even wrex could do in the first game.
Or tali as an engineer.
A shame,really.

Modifié par tonnactus, 29 septembre 2010 - 06:55 .

[JaegerBane]

Glad to see people liked my idea. I was trying to figure out a way of keeping the class's flavour while allowing the player to customise the class to their preferences - it was more inspired by Dragon Age than anything else.

I think the core issue I have with the classes in ME2 is that I think the specialist classes are very well built - they have solid MOs, they have their strengths and weaknesses, and they have all the powers they need to fulfill their role.

On the other hand, the hybrid class's choice of powers always seemed to be a bit disjointed. I couldn't figure out why the player didn't have any choice in which powers they specialised in. Obviously all three hybrids can play very well in one or two roles and they all have their distinct style, it's just some of the powers don't seem to fit. The Sentinel, for instance, seems to primarily be a techy that has some random biotics that don't synergise tacked on while the allegedly stealthy-assassin Infiltrator class stalks the night wielding his super-stealthy guided fireball explosions. And then we have the Vanguard/Shockwave thing.

lazuli wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

Start with the class. Each class has a passive, a class power, and a selection of biotic, combat and tech slots, the individual numbers of which depend on the class.

I think this idea has merit, but all of the powers would have to be carefully balanced (hopefully on multiple difficulty levels) so we aren't flooded with rejects like Shockwave and Shredder Ammo (on higher difficulty settings). 

Another thing to consider is how powers that require points in other powers would work.  Would it really be fair for Cryo Ammo to be available without a prerequisite?  What about Pull?  A possible solution would be to have certain powers require you to have invested sufficiently in either your class' signature power or passive.

I didn't mean to claim that the above idea was to replace the need to modifiy currently under-used powers, this is supposed to be in addition.

Truth be told, I've never honestly thought the whole per-class 'unlock' system made much sense. I would advocate that powers are seperated into Tiers and whatever you choose, you have to unlock the Tier 2 power by levelling the Tier 1. How those powers are organised, I've no idea. Perhaps if Shockwave, Warp and Reave were Tier 2 powers while Throw, Slam and Pull were Tier 1? With Shockwave modified to be worth it's cooldown on higher difficulties?

It would be up to the player what powers they choose. Perhaps if they had to pick, depending on their power sets, one Tier 1 power and one Tier 2 power, or two Tier 1 powers, for every 2 slots they have? The need for unlocking depending on how many Tier 2 abilities you picked? (So, essentially an Adept could pick up to two Tier 1s and two Tier 2s, or three Tier 1s and one Tier 2, or four Tier 1s, while a Vanguard or a Sentinel could only pick two Tier 1s or one Tier 1 and one Tier 2 in terms of biotics?)

I hope that made sense, I'm primarily just throwing ideas out here.

[Tony Gunslinger]

I love the idea. As far as the concern of people picking only uber powers, a few things could keep them in check. Like people have mentioned, it could be a standardized tree for specific groups of powers. For instance, in a "telekinesis tree", basic throw evolves and splits into pull or slam for all classes capable of biotics, so that you'll only able to get 2 of the 3. Also, the adept needs less skill points to max this tree, making him/her easier to master it and use skill points for other powers. Another way (or in conjunction) would be to restrict passive and upgrade modifiers to biotic, combat, and/or tech powers only. So an adept's overload is less effective than an engineers, for instance. Purely thinking this out schematically, the hybrids would have medium passive bonuses for their dual-class powers, but in actual gameplay I'd have no idea if it'll work well. The issue I have is that tech and combat classes should not be able to use any biotics, but it's still plausible for any class to pick up a tech power. Unless BW does a retcon and makes Shepard biotic-capable, I dunno how to justify it as part of the story role-playing.

[lazuli]

JaegerBane wrote...
I didn't mean to claim that the above idea was to replace the need to modifiy currently under-used powers, this is supposed to be in addition.

Truth be told, I've never honestly thought the whole per-class 'unlock' system made much sense. I would advocate that powers are seperated into Tiers and whatever you choose, you have to unlock the Tier 2 power by levelling the Tier 1. How those powers are organised, I've no idea. Perhaps if Shockwave, Warp and Reave were Tier 2 powers while Throw, Slam and Pull were Tier 1? With Shockwave modified to be worth it's cooldown on higher difficulties?

I can see how that would work with the right modifications made to certain skills.  I think Pull deserves its place as a skill you need to work for because it is just that good.

[The Spamming Troll]

this is awesome, i thought i was truely the only one who questioned the effectiveness of classes in ME. even the ideas rolling around seem obviously the best aproach bioware should take. and were just a bunch of random forum posters. its funy, i swaer that jagerbane and a few others had this same conversation about "slots" being used for classes back on the opld forum. it was waaayyyy back when i was "yournofarve" which unfortunately was banned for no doubt hating on some idiot who thought an infiltrator was better then a vangaurd. that was back when i was ****ing hardcore into ME. ME2 tho does nothing close to what ME1 did for me in that regard. but just the option of choosing throw over pull for the vangaud would be enough of an example of the benefits giving the players that sort of choice would be.

long story short, theres better ideas in this topic alone that are better then what we curretnly have. if something vcan be improved i think it should be. and  its seams easily possible, and easily understandable.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 30 septembre 2010 - 03:09 .

[godlike13]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

but just the option of choosing throw over pull for the vangaud would be enough of an example of the benefits giving the players that sort of choice would be.

Although i do like the overall idea, throw on a Vanguard seems kind of pointless.

Modifié par godlike13, 30 septembre 2010 - 03:49 .

[The Spamming Troll]

as is having throw and warp comboed on the sentniel being pointless. the sentinel got stuck with throw becasue of one reason and one reason only, hte vangaurd already has it. thats some leary judgement on the devs part thinking they know how we all would enjoy playing a hybrid class. but nope, were stuck with throw, warp and cryo blast. atleast we get to decide on heavy throw or throw field, wonderfull. i could also say its pointless having throw on an adept as well, but thats neither here nor there.

[godlike13]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

as is having throw and warp comboed on the sentniel being pointless.

Hardly, one's crowd control, and ones a defense stripper. The Sentinel got stuck with throw because as a biotic/tech hybrid class it needed a biotic power that it would benefit from. Throw does that. It gave the Sentinel something it lacked, a quick, 3 seconds compared to 6, ability that gives the class some biotic crowed control it otherwise lacks.

U want to think that its some leery judgment on the devs part, go ahead, but just because ur not getting ur way doesn't mean their wrong for balancing the classes according to their judgment. Don't like it, don't buy it <_<.

[swn32]

Whats the point having two CC powers? Cryo blast is enough, you dont need throw. The cooldown for both of them are pretty low and with all upgrades the difference is less than a second. It would just make more sense to have lift instead of throw like troll said. It has the same cooldown time, has better crowd control via warp bombs.

[godlike13]

swn32 wrote...

Whats the point having two CC powers?

Preference. Although both are CC powers both are very different. Most classes seem to have 2 different CC powers, exception being Vanguard and Adept.

swn32 wrote...
Cryo blast is enough, you dont need throw. The cooldown for both of them are pretty low and with all upgrades the difference is less than a second. It would just make more sense to have lift instead of throw like troll said. It has the same cooldown time, has better crowd control via warp bombs.

There is no Lift. Though if ur talking about Slam, that's available to all classes. Not to mention Slam on its own can only effect 1 target at a time, where Throw can hit multiples.

Modifié par godlike13, 30 septembre 2010 - 07:21 .

[swn32]

Preference. Although both are CC powers both are very different. Most classes seem to have 2 different CC powers, exception being Vanguard and Adept. 

If preference was so important, they shouldve let us choose tech or biotic powers a sentinel can have instead. I have no use for CC powers like throw or shockwave.

There is no Lift. Though if ur talking about Slam, that's available to all classes. Not to mention Slam on its own can only effect 1 target at a time, where Throw can hit multiples. 

I was talking about pull.

Modifié par swn32, 30 septembre 2010 - 07:28 .

[godlike13]

swn32 wrote...

Pull

That would kind of diminish Adept's now wouldn't it. They're the only class the can set off warp explosions on their own, that part of what make them special. Not to mention Pull is going to give u a more similar result to Cryo then Throw does.

Its all about balance. Ur class is going to effect the squad make up and the over all play of the game. So lets say im an Adept im not going to need another bionic in my squad then, though u could if u want, but lets say im a Sentinel now im going to need a bionic for my Warp explosions. Different classes are suppose to give different experiences.

Modifié par godlike13, 30 septembre 2010 - 07:39 .

[godlike13]

swn32 wrote...

If preference was so important, they shouldve let us choose tech or biotic powers a sentinel can have instead. I have no use for CC powers like throw or shockwave.

Because balance is also important. Just because u have no use for CC powers like throw or shockwave, which admittedly do suck at higher difficulty, though that's why they're higher difficulty, doesn't mean they don't have their uses non the less.

Modifié par godlike13, 30 septembre 2010 - 07:40 .