304 réponses à ce sujet

[swn32]

Then again adept themselves are a weird class with lots of useless talents. The only powers worth using are singularity and warp. Others are pretty useless IMO. Adepts shouldve had some more advanced biotic powers like reave, dominate, barrier, stasis instead of them being bonus powers.

Also pull is instant, unlike Cryo which takes a couple of seconds to freeze the enemy.

Because balance is also important. Just because u have no use for CC powers like throw or shockwave, which admittedly do suck at higher difficulty, though that's why they're higher difficulty, doesn't mean they don't have their uses non the less.

But the powers in the classes aren't even balance among themselves. Take soldier for example, there is a godlike power AR that takes 10 points to evolve, and a completely useless power conc shot which also takes 10 points to evolve. If anything, this game lacks balance the way it is right now. Every class has its set of useless powers, thats not very good balance IMO.

Modifié par swn32, 30 septembre 2010 - 07:44 .

[godlike13]

swn32 wrote...

Then again adept themselves are a weird class with lots of useless talents. The only powers worth using are singularity and warp. Others are pretty useless IMO.

Key right there is "IMO", u might think adepts are a weird class with lots of useless talents, but there are plenty who quite enjoy adepts. Being able to set off their own Warp explosion, or pulling up a group of enemies then throwing them to their doom. There are plenty of other classes for u to choose from if u don't find them appealing.

swn32 wrote...

Adepts shouldve had some more advanced biotic powers like reave, dominate, barrier, stasis instead of them being bonus powers.

Adepts don't need Reave, and given they are bonus powers we can pick dominate, barrier, or stasis if we want.

swn32 wrote...
Also pull is instant, unlike Cryo which takes a couple of seconds to freeze the enemy.

And Cryo can hit multiples from the begging of its level. Both accomplish the same thing though, which is to immobilize for a time.

swn32 wrote...

But the powers in the classes aren't even balance among themselves. Take soldier for example, there is a godlike power AR that takes 10 points to evolve, and a completely useless power conc shot which also takes 10 points to evolve. If anything, this game lacks balance the way it is right now. Every class has its set of useless powers, thats not very good balance IMO.

How is that not balancing? AR is the class main with multiple purposes as all the others class mains are. Conc shot is a soldiers one of two CCs, its force damage CC, next to cryo ammo, its immobilizer CC. Not to meting u don't need to invest 10 points in conc for it to be effective. Part of the balancing is for classes to have some advantages and disadvantages. Part of the goal is to force us to strategize here, and give us a challenge.

Modifié par godlike13, 30 septembre 2010 - 08:13 .

[swn32]

godlike13 wrote...

Key right there is "IMO", u might think adepts are a weird class with lots of useless talents, but there are plenty who quite enjoy adepts. Being able to set off their own Warp explosion, or pulling up a group of enemies then throwing them to their doom. There are plenty of other classes for u to choose from if u don't find them appealing.

Appealing maybe, but really less than optimal. You'd be gimping yourself if you chose throw over warp. BTW I never said singularity and warp bombs are useless, the rest of the powers are.

godlike13 wrote...

Adepts don't need Reave, and given they are bonus powers we can pick dominate, barrier, or stasis if we want. 

Its impossible to have 2 bonus powers. What if I wanted a build with singularity, warp, dominate and barrier instead of spending extraneous points on those useless powers thats just for "appeal" and not to give you an edge in combat.

I want the class powers to be balanced among themselves, so that i have to choose between equal powers. As it stands now, i choose the best powers early on in the game. Then as I progress i spent the extraneous points on these useless powers. It doesnt feel like an upgrade at all.

godlike13 wrote...

And Cryo can hit multiples from the begging of its level. Both accomplish the same thing though, which is to immobilize for a time.

No they don't accomplish exactly the same thing, pull sets up warp bombs, cryo doesnt. Its a significant difference. Pull also makes it easier to shoot enemies behind cover, while with cryo, they just fall behind it.

godlike13 wrote...

How is that not balancing? AR is the class main with multiple purposes as all the others class mains are. Conc shot is a soldiers one of two CCs, its force damage CC, next to cryo ammo, its immobilizer CC. Not to meting u don't need to invest 10 points in conc for it to be effective. Part of the balancing is for classes to have some advantages and disadvantages. Part of the goal is to force us to strategize here, and give us a challenge.

Given the shared cooldown nature of the game, there is absolutely no reason anyone would use concussive shot. Concussive shot does AOE only when fully evolved. Thats 10 points spent on the most useless talent in the game. It cant arc around cover, it doesnt have any cooldown benefits. The damage bonus you get by taking commando is negligible since it only affects the initial damage of 75 points and not the force damage. Its cooldown time is 6 seconds so it interferes with your AR spam unlike the ammo powers which soldiers have. Hell, AR does better crowd control than conc shot.

Modifié par swn32, 30 septembre 2010 - 11:44 .

[JaegerBane]

swn32 wrote...

Then again adept themselves are a weird class with lots of useless talents. The only powers worth using are singularity and warp. Others are pretty useless IMO. Adepts shouldve had some more advanced biotic powers like reave, dominate, barrier, stasis instead of them being bonus powers.

I would submit that they're only 'weird' in the sense that they're the only class in the game that derives virtually all it's power from combining it's powers to create effects rather than just spamming one power.

Obviously, if you choose to look at each of the Adept's powers in isolation they'll look a lot weaker than they actually are. Admittedly Warp and Singularity are both useful powers in their own right but branding things like Throw and Pull as 'useless' just isn't correct by any definition. Throw isn't a bad power by itself, as it's relatively limited use is counterbalanced by it's extremely short cooldown and immediate effect, but combine it with Singularity or Pull and you have the potential to set up as many insta-kills as you want, completely independant of the level or who you brought with you. Pull is one of the best powers in the game. I can't figure out how anyone could claim it was 'useless'. It's got so many different uses (particularly for an Adept) that calling it 'useless' simply doesn't make any sense.

Yeah, poor Shockwave has been flogged to death on here, and while I still maintain it has it's uses, and the Adept has a number of tricks which minimise it's substantial weaknesses, yeah, it's a suspect power on the higher difficulties. But I think it's going overboard to brand the Adept as a class 'with lots of useful talents' simply because it happens to have Shockwave.

I have yet to hear a good reason why Adepts lost Stasis in ME2, and personally I think the Adept should have come with both Warp Ammo and Barrier as class abilities as they fit both the gameplay and the lore of the Adept like a glove... but stuff like Reave and Dominate don't seem like 'human' biotic abilities. Frankly I've always thought both of them were patently ludicrous (I'm not really sure how controlling a mass effect field can allow a biotic to be a vampire, while Dominate doesn't even agree with the codex).

[termokanden]

Are you serious? The drone is one of the best abilities in the game. Shepard's version is, anyway.

Well, I suppose it loses its usefulness on the easier settings.

Modifié par termokanden, 30 septembre 2010 - 03:52 .

[swn32]

I'm not saying adept is weird because their powers are weak. They just have some powers which have very less practical use. I know every class has one absolutely useless power, but adepts have more than one.

Pull isnt a useless power by any means. Its just a redundant power for an adept, since singularity is a better power. Where as throw and shockwave are just there for amusement. If you want to have optimal build, your points are better spent elsewhere. The very limited use for throw and shockwave doesnt justify the points you've spent on them. Moreover its always better to use unstable warp on enemies in singularity or pull fields than use throw on them.

Having such an imbalance between powers within a class causes the best powers to be evolved early. After that there is no real sense of getting upgraded with every level up.

If less number of points were required to evolve throw, pull or shockwave, then it wouldve made more sense. Requiring 10 whole points is just ridiculous.

Modifié par swn32, 30 septembre 2010 - 03:58 .

[cruc1al]

swn32 wrote...

I'm not saying adept is weird because their powers are weak. They just have some powers which have very less practical use. I know every class has one absolutely useless power, but adepts have more than one.

Pull isnt a useless power by any means. Its just a redundant power for an adept, since singularity is a better power. Where as throw and shockwave are just there for amusement. If you want to have optimal build, your points are better spent elsewhere. The very limited use for throw and shockwave doesnt justify the points you've spent on them. Moreover its always better to use unstable warp on enemies in singularity or pull fields than use throw on them.

Having such an imbalance between powers within a class causes the best powers to be evolved early. After that there is no real sense of getting upgraded with every level up.

If less number of points were required to evolve throw, pull or shockwave, then it wouldve made more sense. Requiring 10 whole points is just ridiculous.

Honestly, you have no clue about Adept.

Saying singularity is better than pull is like saying a tank is better than a helicopter. 90% of the time they have different uses.

Let me give you the basics. Singularity..
- takes a relatively long time to travel to the target
- is used to lock down protected enemies
- is used to block passage through choke points
- is most effective when creating warp bombs when multiple targets are in the air

None of these apply to Pull. On the other hand, Pull...
- travels quickly to the target
- has a quicker cooldown
- is used for insta-killing or CC'ing enemies with throw; or speeding up weapon kills due to damage bonus
- is THE power to use against single unprotected targets
- can be used to immobilise scattered unprotected targets (due to quick execution of successive pulls, best with heavy pull = 12 sec)

If you're using singularity for any of the uses I listed for pull, you're doing it wrong.

The only truly useless power of Adept on hc/insanity is Shockwave. Without Pull and Throw, the mainstream adept is incomplete. Throw isn't there "just for amusement", it's extremely effective when used with pull. With well executed pull / heavy throw, you can instakill an unprotected regular enemy in about 3-4 seconds in nearly every situation, taking minimal fire while doing so.

Modifié par cruc1al, 30 septembre 2010 - 04:38 .

[lazuli]

cruc1al wrote...
Saying singularity is better than pull is like saying a tank is better than a helicopter. 90% of the time they have different uses.

Thanks for making that point, cruc1al, so I didn't have to.

[swn32]

cruc1al wrote...

swn32 wrote...

I'm not saying adept is weird because their powers are weak. They just have some powers which have very less practical use. I know every class has one absolutely useless power, but adepts have more than one.

Pull isnt a useless power by any means. Its just a redundant power for an adept, since singularity is a better power. Where as throw and shockwave are just there for amusement. If you want to have optimal build, your points are better spent elsewhere. The very limited use for throw and shockwave doesnt justify the points you've spent on them. Moreover its always better to use unstable warp on enemies in singularity or pull fields than use throw on them.

Having such an imbalance between powers within a class causes the best powers to be evolved early. After that there is no real sense of getting upgraded with every level up.

If less number of points were required to evolve throw, pull or shockwave, then it wouldve made more sense. Requiring 10 whole points is just ridiculous.

Honestly, you have no clue about Adept.

Saying singularity is better than pull is like saying a tank is better than a helicopter. 90% of the time they have different uses.

Let me give you the basics. Singularity..
- takes a relatively long time to travel to the target
- is used to lock down protected enemies
- is used to block passage through choke points
- is most effective when creating warp bombs when multiple targets are in the air

None of these apply to Pull. On the other hand, Pull...
- travels quickly to the target
- has a quicker cooldown
- is used for insta-killing or CC'ing enemies with throw; or speeding up weapon kills due to damage bonus
- is THE power to use against single unprotected targets
- can be used to immobilise scattered unprotected targets (due to quick execution of successive pulls, best with heavy pull = 12 sec)

If you're using singularity for any of the uses I listed for pull, you're doing it wrong.

The only truly useless power of Adept on hc/insanity is Shockwave. Without Pull and Throw, the mainstream adept is incomplete. Throw isn't there "just for amusement", it's extremely effective when used with pull. With well executed pull / heavy throw, you can instakill an unprotected regular enemy in about 3-4 seconds in nearly every situation, taking minimal fire while doing so.

"- is used for insta-killing or CC'ing enemies with throw; or speeding up weapon kills due to damage bonus"
Singularity works for CC as well as gives the damage bonus

"- is THE power to use against single unprotected targets"
Everything works against single unprotected targets. Hell, if you have AR training, few bullets from mattock will suffice, or squad mate power.

"- can be used to immobilise scattered unprotected targets (due to quick execution of successive pulls, best with heavy pull = 12 sec)"
I wonder why there would be scattered unprotected targets in the first place. I'm not really in the habit of stripping enemy defenses and leaving them at health. Doing that on scattered enemies is definitely a no go. A enemy with 1% health can do as much damage as one with full health and defense, having them dead is always preferable.

The only real advantage of pull is faster travel time and the lower cooldown. However after all the cooldown upgrades the difference is less than a second. I would any day have stasis replace pull as a default ability. I need the bonus power slot for barrier or energy drain.

Throw field can never justify the 10 points spent on it. Without throw field, its just effective against one target. Killing one unprotected regular enemy in 3-4 seconds is not really fast. I rather evolve singularity, warp, passive, bonus and maybe pull for the faster traver time and cooldown. Spend the remaining one point on throw.

Modifié par swn32, 30 septembre 2010 - 05:49 .

[cruc1al]

swn32 wrote...
"- is used for insta-killing or CC'ing enemies with throw; or speeding up weapon kills due to damage bonus"
Singularity works for CC as well as gives the damage bonus

The point was that pull+throw is used for instakills, but if that fails then it'll still CC the enemy pretty well by throwing him away from your squad.

"- is THE power to use against single unprotected targets"
Everything works against single unprotected targets. Hell, if you have AR training, few bullets from mattock will suffice, or squad mate power.

You're doing it wrong if you're using a slowly travelling 4.5 sec cooldown power on singular targets when you have a fast travelling 3 sec power. You're evading the point by bringing up other means of dealing with the enemy: it was you who said that singularity is better than pull. I'm showing you it's not so simple.

"- can be used to immobilise scattered unprotected targets (due to quick execution of successive pulls, best with heavy pull = 12 sec)"
I wonder why there would be scattered unprotected targets in the first place. I'm not really in the habit of stripping enemy defenses and leaving them at health. Doing that on scattered enemies is definitely a no go. A enemy with 1% health can do as much damage as one with full health and defense, having them dead is always preferable.

Yes, usually you don't encounter scattered enemies all of whom are unprotected. And the best way to neutralise them is with pull. With heavy pull you can hold 3 enemies in the air indefinitely. However, I agree that this isn't one of pull's primary uses: the primary uses are pull+throw and pull+weapon damage, and - something I forgot to mention - it's faster to squad warp bomb with pull+warp than with singularity+warp.

The only real advantage of pull is faster travel time and the lower cooldown. However after all the cooldown upgrades the difference is less than a second. I would any day have stasis replace pull as a default ability. I need the bonus power slot for barrier or energy drain.

That's the whole point, yes. A one second difference in cooldown and travel time can mean life or death.

Throw field can never justify the 10 points spent on it. Without throw field, its just effective against one target.

I'm not a big fan of throw field either, I prefer the heavy version or just leave it at level 3.

Killing one unprotected regular enemy in 3-4 seconds is not really fast.

LOL it's damn fast for Adept. Maybe not for other classes. Nevertheless, it's often useful to sacrifice some killing speed for not taking as much damage; sometimes when you have a lot of enemies around, you won't have the luxury of staying out of cover shooting.

[swn32]

cruc1al wrote...

You're doing it wrong if you're using a slowly travelling 4.5 sec cooldown power on singular targets when you have a fast travelling 3 sec power. You're evading the point by bringing up other means of dealing with the enemy: it was you who said that singularity is better than pull. I'm showing you it's not so simple.

I dont use singularity on single targets if i have pull available. What I'm saying is that if given the option, I would definitely replace pull with stasis or something else as a default power.

cruc1al wrote...

That's the whole point, yes. A one second difference in cooldown and travel time can mean life or death.

Agreed, thats what makes pull more useful than throw and shockwave. Still 10 more points just to save 1 second? Some other power instead would be great.

cruc1al wrote...

LOL it's damn fast for Adept. Maybe not for other classes. Nevertheless, it's often useful to sacrifice some killing speed for not taking as much damage; sometimes when you have a lot of enemies around, you won't have the luxury of staying out of cover shooting.

Damn, considering I usually play as a Mattock soldier who can take out 3 unprotected enemies in one AR, 3-4 seconds seemed a lot. Anyways I guess its pretty quick for an Adept.

Modifié par swn32, 30 septembre 2010 - 07:36 .

[Bozorgmehr]

swn32 wrote...

cruc1al wrote...

LOL it's damn fast for Adept. Maybe not for other classes. Nevertheless, it's often useful to sacrifice some killing speed for not taking as much damage; sometimes when you have a lot of enemies around, you won't have the luxury of staying out of cover shooting.

Damn, considering I usually play as a Mattock soldier who can take out 3 unprotected enemies in one AR, 3-4 seconds seemed a lot. Anyways I guess its pretty quick for an Adept.

Adept can clear levels just as fast as Soldiers or any other class for that matter. This is how I play Adept on Insanity: www.youtube.com/watch I don't think Soldiers would be much faster.

[sinosleep]

I don't understand why speed seems to be the only thing by which classes are measured any way. Traditionally melee classes have never been able to clear content as quickly as caster classes in fantasy games, that has no effect whatsoever on my love of melee classes though. I feel much the same with Mass Effect. I don't care how slow or fast the different classes clear content, what's important is that they all can and that they all play differently.

Modifié par sinosleep, 30 septembre 2010 - 07:55 .

[cruc1al]

@swn32

Another point: you can only have one singularity at any time, so if you need to get someone in the air for throwing or warp bombing while you have a singularity elsewhere, pull is your only option.

I agree that there are more useful powers in the bonus powers, but that's exactly why they're bonus powers. You're not meant to have the most powerful powers (apart from your class special power) by default.

Modifié par cruc1al, 30 septembre 2010 - 07:55 .

[Simbacca]

sinosleep wrote...

I don't understand why speed seems to be the only thing by which classes are measured any way. Traditionally melee classes have never been able to clear content as quickly as caster classes in fantasy games, that has no effect whatsoever on my love of melee classes though. I feel much the same with Mass Effect. I don't care how slow or fast the different classes clear content, what's important is that they all can and that they all play differently.

This +1000.  I have always felt this way whenever these debates have sprung up on the forums (which is far too often).

[swn32]

sinosleep wrote...

I don't understand why speed seems to be the only thing by which classes are measured any way. Traditionally melee classes have never been able to clear content as quickly as caster classes in fantasy games, that has no effect whatsoever on my love of melee classes though. I feel much the same with Mass Effect. I don't care how slow or fast the different classes clear content, what's important is that they all can and that they all play differently.

The faster you take out your opposition, the lesser the time they have to flank you or overpower you. In general its preferable to be as quick as possible. Especially in multiplayer games where speed is everything. However in single player games its not really much of an issue. Still its a measure of how effective a build is.

[Bozorgmehr]

Simbacca wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

I don't understand why speed seems to be the only thing by which classes are measured any way. Traditionally melee classes have never been able to clear content as quickly as caster classes in fantasy games, that has no effect whatsoever on my love of melee classes though. I feel much the same with Mass Effect. I don't care how slow or fast the different classes clear content, what's important is that they all can and that they all play differently.

This +1000.  I have always felt this way whenever these debates have sprung up on the forums (which is far too often).

Agreed, games are supposed to be fun. Unfortunately there are still people around arguing which class or build is 'better'. Just nonsense, there ain't no best class or build, only different ones.

It's far more interesting to share tips and tricks how to play each class in different ways (like OniGanon's guide for example) just for the lulz of it.

swn32 wrote...

The faster you take out your opposition, the lesser the time they have to flank you or overpower you. In general
its preferable to be as quick as possible. Especially in multiplayer games where speed is everything. However in single player games its not really much of an issue. Still its a measure of how effective a build is.

And it still has nothing to do with satisfaction (= why I play ME2) - I have the most fun playing Adept, others prefer a different class. But please stop complaining about Adepts being weak, or have useless powers, or whatever coz they don't. All classes are powerful in their own way; it just takes some time and practice to get a feel for all of them.

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 30 septembre 2010 - 08:37 .

[sinosleep]

swn32 wrote...

The faster you take out your opposition, the lesser the time they have to flank you or overpower you. In general its preferable to be as quick as possible. Especially in multiplayer games where speed is everything. However in single player games its not really much of an issue. Still its a measure of how effective a build is.

I understand the basic concept that killing things quicker is helpful, but anybody knows that. My point is simply that speed with which you clear content shouldn't be as big a deal as people make it out to be.

Modifié par sinosleep, 30 septembre 2010 - 08:51 .

[swn32]

 

And it still has nothing to do with satisfaction (= why I play ME2) - I have the most fun playing Adept, others prefer a different class. But please stop complaining about Adepts being weak, or have useless powers, or whatever coz they don't. All classes are powerful in their own way; it just takes some time and practice to get a feel for all of them.

Ive seen that video of yours. You were singularities, warp bombs and energy drain most of the time. Pull rarely, throw even more rare. Thats how even I play an adept. If there was a choice to select powers I wont ever bother with pull or throw. Select something else instead.

I never said adepts are weak. I'm not sure where you are getting all this. Every class has its set of useless powers. Thats the lack of balance which I was addressing. Each of the 5 powers should be worth spending points on. It shouldnt be skewed like the way its now.

[Bozorgmehr]

Without Pull and Throw the Adept will be severely handicapped. It's like Cruc1al already explained; Singularity against groups/choke points/powerful enemies; Warp detonate whenever you can hit multiple enemies; all other circumstances are better dealt with using either Pull or Throw. Pull is perhaps the best power except the unique ones; Throw is excellent CQC power and easily instakills combined with Pull or Singularity. I can't imagine playing Adept with out both powers (and it's great fun tossing enemies around too). Shockwave is great on easier settings but worthless above. Same can be said about other classes (who uses CS with Soldier?)

I like more customization, but without loosing distinctive feel of each class.

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 30 septembre 2010 - 09:22 .

[JosieJ]

swn32 wrote...

 Thats the lack of balance which I was addressing. Each of the 5 powers should be worth spending points on. It shouldnt be skewed like the way its now.

swn32, you seem to be arguing that the classes are unbalanced because all their powers aren't equally uber, whereas many of us think the classes are well-balanced because all of them have a mix of abilities, some better than others.  When it comes to the Adept (with which I have the most experience in ME2), I think all of their talents except Shockwave are worth putting points in.  It's just that all of them may not be worth putting 10 points in.

[The Spamming Troll]

i thought i would have so much to say, but everyone on my side seems to be right were i need them. if we can forget about the elimination of classes, but focused more on the potential of classes then i think we could be heading in the right direction. the more i think about not playing ME3 as some form of biotic class really is starting to irk me. but the thing i find interesting is that those who think the adept works fine and shouldnt be inproved for ME3. one simple question i have for them......whats better A or B?

A. throw, warp, pull, singularity, shockwave, and maybe reave.

B. everything i already mentioned as well as barrier, slam, stasis, warp ammo, dominate.

i mean seriousely, you want less???

isnt an adept by defenition a class that shoould be using warp ammo, singularity, stasis, and reave???? why am i an adept, and not being an adept? adept is just the title that bioware gave the "class" that had option A.

[The Spamming Troll]

do you see what i wrote there? an adept that cant use the most effective biotics in the game. what the hell.

i just boggled my own mind

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 30 septembre 2010 - 11:59 .

[sinosleep]

If any class had access to all of those abilities at once it would be ridiculous. The adept is the adept because he has access to more biotic powers at the same time (doesn't matter what they are) than any other class.