304 réponses à ce sujet

[Omega-202]

m14567 wrote...

You could move warp explosions to only triggering from a singularity. I doubt that would seriously affect Adepts. Other than that I don't see too much open for abuse.

And then what happens to Vanguards who have squadmates detonate their pulls or Sentinels who detonate squadmate's pulls/slams?

There are classes for a reason.  Everyone would be a cookie cutter, identical character if there were no classes.  Nobody would bother taking certain powers and EVERYONE would be taking others.  

Do I believe they could be less rigid?  Sure.  Do I think they'd ever consider a classless system?  No.  

[HTTP 404]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i know some people might not enjoy an option like this but im of a different sort. basically i wondering what is the meaning behind the developers giving us 6 pre-defined classes? why did they create a vangaurd that couldnt use throw or an infiltrator that couldnt use sabotage? why did bioware slice everything they throw at us into 6 predefined and linear classes? im saying its not just the fact that i have to play 3 seperate classes to fully enjoy what bioware gave me(charge, cloak, revenant), its that i have to be stuck with a sentinel that can never use anything then what their predifend abilities are. i can understand a vangaurd being parts biotic and warrior but why wouldnt we get a vangaurd and then chooose of the available abilities from the two classes in order to build OUR vangaurd.

also whats the point in being an adept, aka the best biotic class by far, and not actually be that great a biotic? the best abilities are class specific and bonus abilities. the adept can never use stasis, reave, dominate, warp ammo, or any BIOTICS that SHOULD be available to ALL ADEPTS.

so why is an adept, an adept?

wrong

[The Spamming Troll]

Omega-202 wrote...

m14567 wrote...

You could move warp explosions to only triggering from a singularity. I doubt that would seriously affect Adepts. Other than that I don't see too much open for abuse.

And then what happens to Vanguards who have squadmates detonate their pulls or Sentinels who detonate squadmate's pulls/slams?

There are classes for a reason.  Everyone would be a cookie cutter, identical character if there were no classes.  Nobody would bother taking certain powers and EVERYONE would be taking others.  

Do I believe they could be less rigid?  Sure.  Do I think they'd ever consider a classless system?  No.  

every adept is a cookie cutter adept. isnt that something you noticed? an adepts gameplay will never change and it has nothing to do with spamming singulairty. your adept looks exactly like mine, because theres no varity present there. your choice of heavy or wide is purely cosmetic.

this isnt talk about a classless system with a character that has singulairty, drone, cloak, AR, and tech armor. an adepts gameplay can still revolve around spamming singulairty, but id like the adept to have more options in its other biotics. same thing applies to the hrbrid classes, probably even more so. if the sentinel gets four abilities, two of them biotic, two of them tech, then hows a pull, reave, energy drain, incination blast sentinel any better then a throw, warp, sabotage, cryo blast sentinel? id even consider give the sentinel warp ammo and disruptor ammo as options too.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 04 octobre 2010 - 05:05 .

[JaegerBane]

OniGanon wrote...

No, but it's a big part of the draw. BioWare obviously went out of their way to make sure only the Adept can do biotic comboes by themselves. Giving the ability to other classes threatens their role.

You don't want things becoming like ME1 where the Vanguard and Infiltrator were better than the Adept and Engineer in pretty much every way that mattered.

I'm on the fence about this. On the one hand I agree, it's good to have a specific role for each class and it did get a bit silly in ME1 where the Vanguard was a better biotic than the biotic specialist (and a better combatant to boot) and the infiltrator-engineer relationship was the same thing.

On the other, having iron-clad restrictions is the express way to ensuring that the player is forced down a certain path and ends up playing their character in the same way everyone else does. You don't want that, either. There's a balance to be had between restrictions and choice, and imo, the current balance is weighted too far in the direction of restrictions. DA:O felt far more like it was in the middle.

[The Spamming Troll]

HTTP 404 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i know some people might not enjoy an option like this but im of a different sort. basically i wondering what is the meaning behind the developers giving us 6 pre-defined classes? why did they create a vangaurd that couldnt use throw or an infiltrator that couldnt use sabotage? why did bioware slice everything they throw at us into 6 predefined and linear classes? im saying its not just the fact that i have to play 3 seperate classes to fully enjoy what bioware gave me(charge, cloak, revenant), its that i have to be stuck with a sentinel that can never use anything then what their predifend abilities are. i can understand a vangaurd being parts biotic and warrior but why wouldnt we get a vangaurd and then chooose of the available abilities from the two classes in order to build OUR vangaurd.

also whats the point in being an adept, aka the best biotic class by far, and not actually be that great a biotic? the best abilities are class specific and bonus abilities. the adept can never use stasis, reave, dominate, warp ammo, or any BIOTICS that SHOULD be available to ALL ADEPTS.

so why is an adept, an adept?

wrong

this post is the sumation of all the posts ive seen here. "it wont be balanced." "an adept already uses biotics." and my personal favorite, "wrong." i havent even seen a valid reason why making an adept with different biotics would be worse then playing one with predefined biotics. if you want your adept in ME3 to play exactly the same as it did in ME2, then i think you are the one thats wrong. an adept doesnt mean biotic specialist so much as it means a biotic class that can only use pull, throw, warp, sing, shockwave, and one more random ability. say what you want about it but id like my adept in ME3 to have a little more freedom in gameplay.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 04 octobre 2010 - 11:36 .

[HTTP 404]

[numotsbane]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

this post is the sumation of all the posts ive seen here. "it wont be balanced." "an adept already uses biotics." and my personal favorite, "wrong." i havent even seen a valid reason why making an adept with different biotics would be worse then playing one with predefined biotics. if you want your adept in ME3 to play exactly the same as it did in ME2, then i think you are the one thats wrong. an adept doesnt mean biotic specialist so much as it means a biotic class that can only use pull, throw, warp, sing, shockwave, and one more random ability. say what you want about it but id like my adept in ME3 to have a little more freedom in gameplay.

the gap between 'a little more freedom' and 'no classes at all' is where you're likely losing most of us. I would like more choices, but you haven't put forward a compelling example for how a classless system would work in an effective and balanced way*. until you can do so I'll sit on the fence, and wait till Pacifien follows the almost automatic rule of locking strategy threads that last longer than 6 pages

*or if you have, I'm not aware of it. link me?

[Killjoy Cutter]

classes and levels appear so often in games (computer and table-top) because that's how it's always been done in most gaming. There are plenty of other ways to structure character progression, skill sets, balance, etc, but they're seldom considered for a variety of reasons, including blunt intellectual inertia.


Personally, I'd love to see ME3 have no classes at all.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 05 octobre 2010 - 03:15 .

[Permutation]

Thought you guys might find this a little entertaining. Lol. Uploaded it last night.

[The Spamming Troll]

numotsbane wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

this post is the sumation of all the posts ive seen here. "it wont be balanced." "an adept already uses biotics." and my personal favorite, "wrong." i havent even seen a valid reason why making an adept with different biotics would be worse then playing one with predefined biotics. if you want your adept in ME3 to play exactly the same as it did in ME2, then i think you are the one thats wrong. an adept doesnt mean biotic specialist so much as it means a biotic class that can only use pull, throw, warp, sing, shockwave, and one more random ability. say what you want about it but id like my adept in ME3 to have a little more freedom in gameplay.

the gap between 'a little more freedom' and 'no classes at all' is where you're likely losing most of us. I would like more choices, but you haven't put forward a compelling example for how a classless system would work in an effective and balanced way*. until you can do so I'll sit on the fence, and wait till Pacifien follows the almost automatic rule of locking strategy threads that last longer than 6 pages

*or if you have, I'm not aware of it. link me?

first thing is that i dont need the elimination of classes. i wouldnt mind a game that allowed me to create my own character but most people in here arent capable enough of making something on their own it seems. well anyways theres a few exacmples in this very thread about how to tweak classes. its not even hard. you can probably come up with a reasonable idea of how classes could be further developed, and i dont want to spon feed every other post in here who says "an adept with slam AND stasis doesnt make any sense!" when to me it makes perfect sense. dont you question why your vangaurd is forced to use inferno and cryo ammo?

if bioware gives me a game like ME2 with the rock paper scissors aspect, then id hope they would atleast let my character evolve on its own, rather then just use singularity becasue dominate or stasis "dont fit on the power wheel."

[JaegerBane]

numotsbane wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

this post is the sumation of all the posts ive seen here. "it wont be balanced." "an adept already uses biotics." and my personal favorite, "wrong." i havent even seen a valid reason why making an adept with different biotics would be worse then playing one with predefined biotics. if you want your adept in ME3 to play exactly the same as it did in ME2, then i think you are the one thats wrong. an adept doesnt mean biotic specialist so much as it means a biotic class that can only use pull, throw, warp, sing, shockwave, and one more random ability. say what you want about it but id like my adept in ME3 to have a little more freedom in gameplay.

the gap between 'a little more freedom' and 'no classes at all' is where you're likely losing most of us. I would like more choices, but you haven't put forward a compelling example for how a classless system would work in an effective and balanced way*. until you can do so I'll sit on the fence, and wait till Pacifien follows the almost automatic rule of locking strategy threads that last longer than 6 pages

*or if you have, I'm not aware of it. link me?

Agreed. I'm all for more choices and I really dislike the way the skills were so restricted in ME2, but that doesn't necessarily mean I want to see the back of classes altogether.

[Omega-202]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Omega-202 wrote...

m14567 wrote...

You could move warp explosions to only triggering from a singularity. I doubt that would seriously affect Adepts. Other than that I don't see too much open for abuse.

And then what happens to Vanguards who have squadmates detonate their pulls or Sentinels who detonate squadmate's pulls/slams?

There are classes for a reason.  Everyone would be a cookie cutter, identical character if there were no classes.  Nobody would bother taking certain powers and EVERYONE would be taking others.  

Do I believe they could be less rigid?  Sure.  Do I think they'd ever consider a classless system?  No.  

every adept is a cookie cutter adept. isnt that something you noticed? an adepts gameplay will never change and it has nothing to do with spamming singulairty. your adept looks exactly like mine, because theres no varity present there. your choice of heavy or wide is purely cosmetic.

this isnt talk about a classless system with a character that has singulairty, drone, cloak, AR, and tech armor. an adepts gameplay can still revolve around spamming singulairty, but id like the adept to have more options in its other biotics. same thing applies to the hrbrid classes, probably even more so. if the sentinel gets four abilities, two of them biotic, two of them tech, then hows a pull, reave, energy drain, incination blast sentinel any better then a throw, warp, sabotage, cryo blast sentinel? id even consider give the sentinel warp ammo and disruptor ammo as options too.

A)  Your first point is irrelevant because there would still be a difference between Adepts and any other class.  They can't be complete cookie cutter if there are classes because not everyone chooses the same class.  If you're arguing that "within a class, everyone chooses the same cookie cutter builds" then let me be the first to welcome you to RPG's.  

 Now you're just on the precipice of the slippery slope aren't you?  We see your suggestion as mildly unreasonable, yet you say that there would be limits to each class's choices.  You're proposing a new system and yet admonishing a system that goes one step further.  

What makes your suggestion reasonable and a full open system unreasonable?  

And to take your example exactly as is:  A Pull, Warp, Energy Drain, Incinerate (or Cryo) Sentinel would be probably the most chosen.  It would be more powerful.  You loaded your example by mixing up useful and non-useful and separated powers that worked together in the same set.  You'd have to see that in such a scenario, everyone would pick Pull/Warp as their two biotics and defense strippers for their Techs.  Then you end up with the same problem you complained about before:  The class becomes a 1 trick pony because that 1 trick is the best it has to offer.  

[The Spamming Troll]

referencing A. i agree classes should stay. if the game cant be balanced for a revenant, cloaking vangaurd, then why do i even need to taste my strength punching these tiny little keys on my keyboard. adepts in ME2 are all mostly built and played the same way, as is any other class, by spamming their signature ability, somewhat using their bonus ability, and sporadically using the other predefined abilities they have. you might love using pull field or setting up warp explosison with team mates, but if your not using your special ability theres no reason to be playing that class. i wouldnt even be this concerned if it wasnt for bonus abilities. its just not great being an adept, the king of biotics, and not being able to use half the biotics. maybe ive played too much ME.



B. now i dont want classes removed, i just want them expanded. its easy to limit things. take enemy defenses on insanity for example. if a game cant be balanced and couldnt provide a challenge to the gamers, then absolutely you are right. i dont feel any more powerfull by level 30, then i am at level 10 in ME2.



pull and warp is the obvious choice for biotics. why doesnt a vanguard have pull and warp, wouldnt a warrior have warp? but the sentinel doesnt have pull because the vanguard has pull. that just doesnt make sense to me. each class already is a one trick pony, errrrrr cookie cutter....



i give up.

[JaegerBane]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

pull and warp is the obvious choice for biotics. why doesnt a vanguard have pull and warp, wouldnt a warrior have warp? but the sentinel doesnt have pull because the vanguard has pull. that just doesnt make sense to me. each class already is a one trick pony, errrrrr cookie cutter....

i give up.

I think you're conflating several things together here. Yes, the Vanguard is a one-trick-pony - that isn't a result of the fact they don't have Warp, as such. It's a result of the poor synergy in the Vanguard's power set, with Pull not working terribly well with Cryo, Shockwave just not working at all and a general style of play that is essentially the same trick, played over and over again. You wouldn't fix this just by plastering any old biotic power in there. You fix this by establishing a solid modus operandi for the Vanguard and then giving them a set of skills to allow that style of play to be achieved.

The basic idea is that the Adept is the master biotic, hence it's not surprising they have a set of skills that synergise - this is the class who have so much biotic ability they operate on a level beyond the other two by using their advanced combos rather than just spamming the same power. Adding this ability to Vanguards and Sentinels would effectively be like adding Charge to an Adept - it would essentially render one class totally pointless.

That's not to say some biotic combos should not be allowed on the hybrid biotics - I still think the Throw/Pull combo would have been a far better idea than the poorly-matched Shockwave/Pull/Cryo selection on the Vanguard while the Sentinel could have made far better use of Shockwave, given it's relatively poor CC.

As for Warp 'because Vanguard is a warrior'... this is neither here nor there. All classes, biotic or not, in this game are 'warriors'.

[weedlink10]

i get what OP is saying and i like it, what i think he is trying to say is that the devs shouldn't force us to use the four powers given to us, lets say you pick an adept you shouldn't be stuck with pull, throw shockwave and warp, the main class power which is singulairty in this case should never change, but the rest of the powers you should be able to choose for yourself, but their should be rules to it, and adept shouldn't be able to choose tech powers and you can only choose four powers not including the class main power, so you choose your adept class at the beginning of the game then you have a list of all the biotics powers in the game to choose as your four for your build, also for classes such as the vanguard can't replace normal powers with ammo powers, so that class would get to two powers from the list of all the biotics and two ammo powers from a list of all the ammo powers this system is way better and offer much more flexibility when it comes to game play and for all the people who say this will throw off the balance in the game i say to you bull****, mass effect 2 is far from balance, as the game sits right now i can play with all classes on insanity and never died and never use medgel or heavy weapons so i don't see how making your own class be anymore unbalance.

Modifié par weedlink10, 06 octobre 2010 - 10:38 .

[godlike13]

Permutation wrote...

Thought you guys might find this a little entertaining. Lol. Uploaded it last night.

That looks an awful lot like ur Adept. I know my Adept didn't play like that at all .

JaegerBane wrote...

That's not to say some biotic combos should not be allowed on the hybrid biotics - I still think the Throw/Pull combo would have been a far better idea than the poorly-matched Shockwave/Pull/Cryo selection on the Vanguard while the Sentinel could have made far better use of Shockwave, given it's relatively poor CC.

Um, i think ur forgetting about Charge, and the Pull/Charge combo

Modifié par godlike13, 06 octobre 2010 - 10:42 .

[Nozybidaj]

sinosleep wrote...

So that you can't create god classes that break the game like you can in Oblivion.

Apples and oranges.  Kinda hard to compare a set of predefined skills in a third person shooter/action game to a custom class in an open world role playing game.  The fact that you even tried to draw a comparison between ME2 and Oblivion is laughable.  Those two games are about as different as can be.

CubbieBlue66 wrote...
Would beating the game on insanity be much of an achievement if you had the ability to make a class and you slapped tech armor, charge, and cloak on it?

About as much of one as it is beating it without those things. <_<

[sinosleep]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Apples and oranges.  Kinda hard to compare a set of predefined skills in a third person shooter/action game to a custom class in an open world role playing game.  The fact that you even tried to draw a comparison between ME2 and Oblivion is laughable.  Those two games are about as different as can be.

Contrary to what the rpg elitists would have you believe, ME 2 still counts as rpg. Not only that but the problems associated with classless systems seem to follow the games that use them regardless of genre. Oblivion and Champions online aren't the same thing either and yet they both have all the same create your own class problems. People find absurd combinations of powers that make the game a cake walk and then that's all you see.

[Nozybidaj]

sinosleep wrote...
 ME 2 still counts as rpg.

People find absurd combinations of powers that make the game a cake walk and then that's all you see.

No, that's all you see, if you so choose.  Champions has (or had, played it back when it was in beta, may be very different now) its own set of issues and trends being an MMO.

An open class system doesn't have any more inherent problems than a strictly predefined set of classes, just different ones usually.  To your Oblivion example specifically, I could go on about how its possible to create characters that are completely gimped by level 5, and characters completely overpowered by level 20, and how most will fall in a range somewhere in the middle by dissecting various class and character build databases that are available for the game. 

I'll refrain however and remind myself of your first statement and see how fruitless all that would be. 

[termokanden]

I'm an RPG elitist, and I consider ME2 a (computer) RPG.

I prefer a class system, and one with more differences between the classes than ME2 has.

Speaking of Morrowind/Oblivion, the class system there was (IMO) a complete and utter failure. You were actually best off NOT making your primary skills your primary skills, because that would level you up too fast with low attribute multipliers. So by following what would be common sense in most games, you would actually weaken your character relative to everything else each time you leveled up.

Modifié par termokanden, 06 octobre 2010 - 01:56 .

[Nozybidaj]

termokanden wrote...

Speaking of Morrowind/Oblivion, the class system there was (IMO) a complete and utter failure.

I actually completely agree, I never liked the systems used in either game, and for Oblivion mod'ed my own system based off a few other popular leveling mods.

In the end though my original point wasn't about whether one system is better or worse than another, but about trying to make comparisons between two totally different systems in two completly different games.

[JaegerBane]

godlike13 wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

That's not to say some biotic combos should not be allowed on the hybrid biotics - I still think the Throw/Pull combo would have been a far better idea than the poorly-matched Shockwave/Pull/Cryo selection on the Vanguard while the Sentinel could have made far better use of Shockwave, given it's relatively poor CC.

Um, i think ur forgetting about Charge, and the Pull/Charge combo

No, I'm not forgetting the Pull/Charge combo. What I was pointing out above were *useful* combos. Realistically the Pull/Charge combo is basically a gimmick - since it only works in one direction only, it's more difficult to get instakills with it, it's limited in when it can be triggered since a Charging Vanguard can't hit things as high up as Throw or Warp bolt can, and it's limited in it's utility in that the player ends up getting moved to wherever he pulled off the combo, which reduces the number of situations it can reliably be used in.

In short, it's crap. When I was talking about combos, I was referring to ones that are worth performing. Pull/Charge looks pretty but you're often no worse served simply charging an opponent.

[JaegerBane]

termokanden wrote...
Speaking of Morrowind/Oblivion, the class system there was (IMO) a complete and utter failure. You were actually best off NOT making your primary skills your primary skills, because that would level you up too fast with low attribute multipliers. So by following what would be common sense in most games, you would actually weaken your character relative to everything else each time you leveled up.

Yeah. The idea of holding off on developing your main skills to boost your character was such a whacked-out concept that I honestly don't know what Bethesda were thinking when they made it.

[Bozorgmehr]

Nozybidaj wrote...

In the end though my original point wasn't about whether one system is better or worse than another, but about trying to make comparisons between two totally different systems in two completly different games.

The original point being made was about the classless system put forth to be used in ME3, people responded using the Oblivion example, and I think it's fair to say most posters here don't like a system like that. 

The problem is to keep the different classes but without the current restrictions regarding skills/powers. I'm interested hearing your opinion on this.