304 réponses à ce sujet

[Bozorgmehr]

swn32 wrote...

Why would you take away their weapons? Their class power is meant to be used with weapons. Its not even a valid argument. Soldiers are useless if you take away their weapons, but they are godlike with their weapons. You can't just take their main advantage out of the equation and compare. Only the soldier can pack a Mattock/Viper/GPS setup and with it you are unstoppable.

The point I tried to make was to dismiss the ridiculous claim that Adepts suck once enemies have protection, but Soldiers don't. Both face same problems only difference is that Soldier don't have powers they can use on enemies like Adepts do (Soldiers can only use weapons to deal with enemies)

Also inferno ammo does cause panic even with defenses on.

No it doesn't. You mean it can cause panic on nearby (protected) enemies once you use Inferno Ammo on an already unprotected enemy.

[swn32]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

swn32 wrote...

Why would you take away their weapons? Their class power is meant to be used with weapons. Its not even a valid argument. Soldiers are useless if you take away their weapons, but they are godlike with their weapons. You can't just take their main advantage out of the equation and compare. Only the soldier can pack a Mattock/Viper/GPS setup and with it you are unstoppable.

The point I tried to make was to dismiss the ridiculous claim that Adepts suck once enemies have protection, but Soldiers don't. Both face same problems only difference is that Soldier don't have powers they can use on enemies like Adepts do (Soldiers can only use weapons to deal with enemies)

No seriously, soldiers dont suck even with protection on, because as far as I know guns do more damage to protection than they do to health. A soldier can strip defenses much faster with their weapons and Adrenaline rush. Unless you are talking about concussive shot, which I never used even on lower difficulties. Also the panic effect is very easy to achieve since taking down the defenses of one enemy takes 1 or 2 mattock headshots, after that it works on entire clusters.

Fact is guns and AR are the main things a soldier woud use and guns are better against defenses, where as every power (except warp) is inferior on defenses. Thats where the claim arises that adepts are less powerful on insanity.

Modifié par swn32, 08 octobre 2010 - 09:42 .

[Bozorgmehr]

swn32 wrote...

No seriously, soldiers dont suck even with protection on, because as far as I know guns do more damage to protection than they do to health.

I never said Soldier suck, I said they face the same problem as Adepts do - and yes, all weapons have multipliers against defenses, none against health - that's where ammo effects (Soldier) or biotics (Adept) kick in.

A soldier can strip defenses much faster with their weapons and Adrenaline rush. Unless you are talking about concussive shot, which I never used even on lower difficulties.

Soldiers can strip defenses just as fast as Adepts can do, AR makes aiming easier and provides a damage bonus - Adepts can strip both armor and barriers instantly using Warp (or much faster using Warp bombs)

Also the panic effect is very easy to achieve since taking down the defenses of one enemy takes 1 or 2 mattock headshots, after that it works on entire clusters.

Correct

Fact is guns and AR are the main things a soldier woud use and guns are better against defenses, where as every power (except warp) is inferior on defenses. Thats where the claim arises that adepts are less powerful on insanity.

Guns are the only things Soldiers can use (and they are very good in doing so); the claim that Adepts are supposedly underpowered faced with defenses is false. Powers are superior in every way compared to guns, they can strip defenses instantly. I rather use squadmate's Overload to remove shields then take them down using guns (some powers like Warp can be used on enemies out of sight, no gun can fire around corners) not to mention Adepts have guns too.

Those who consider Adept less powerful on Insanity don't know how to play; the only argument put forth is "biotics don't work on protection" - false again, all powers work on defenses and Singularity works on pretty much everything. Claiming Adept is harder to play on Insanity than Soldier is true, but that's only because Soldiers use one (very powerful) trick (which has no effect on enemies whatsoever) while Adepts can use multiple (less powerful) tricks that have to be used on enemies to work. To play effectively on Insanity with an Adept only requires using the right powers in the right circumstances, thats all.

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 08 octobre 2010 - 10:58 .

[cruc1al]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Guns are the only things Soldiers can use (and they are very good in doing so); the claim that Adepts are supposedly underpowered faced with defenses is false.

Soldiers can also use bonus powers, even biotics. Isn't that game breaking then? A super Soldier who can have Hardened Adrenaline Rush, Mattock, Viper AND Reave?

Second, Adepts are underpowered compared to soldiers when faced with defenses. More specifically, adepts can't deal with shields unless they invest in Energy Drain as a bonus power. In this way, bonus powers don't make Adepts "super Adepts" they just make them more close to the level of Soldiers, whereas bonus powers can make Soldiers "super Soldiers".

And arguably not having access to sniper rifles and ARs from the start, and having a 6 second cooldown on Warp, make Adepts less able to deal with armor too. I'm pretty sure I could demostrate empirically that Soldiers are more effective at taking down both types of defenses than than Adepts when not relying on squadmates (but it would take too much of my time). Adepts could be more effective perhaps against barriers, but even that's debatable (and dependent on player skill).

Powers are superior in every way compared to guns, they can strip defenses instantly.

That's a claim you'd need to demostrate. On a single low level enemy, powers ~ guns. Sometimes guns can one-shot the enemy in less than a second, sometimes power combos can neutralise the enemy with no risk whatsoever. On multiple enemies of varying strength, powers < guns, because powers have cooldown time and guns dont. And guns such as Widow can also one-shot defenses instantly, even on bosses, something which powers cannot do. Thing is, guns and ammo powers are what give Soldier their versatility. Powers are what is supposed to give adepts their versatility; and I would tend to agree with The Spamming Troll in that ME2 is a bit lacking in this department. More combo-capable powers and more combinations of powers for adepts are needed. Yet I'm also reluctant to do away with classes completely (but that hasn't been his argument for a couple of pages anyway).

I rather use squadmate's Overload to remove shields then take them down using guns (some powers like Warp can be used on enemies out of sight, no gun can fire around corners) not to mention Adepts have guns too.

Both Adepts and Soldiers can use squadmates' Overload. What's your point?

The guns that Adepts have are clearly inferior to those of Soldiers, as it should be. You know this and you probably agree that it's a good thing; class restrictions are what make classes unique. It's just that adepts shouldn't need to rely on guns as much for effectiveness and gameplay variety.

Again, a Claiming Adept is harder to play on Insanity than Soldier is true, but that's only because Soldiers use one (very powerful) trick (which has no effect on enemies whatsoever) while Adepts can use multiple (less powerful) tricks that have to be used on enemies to work. To play effectively on Insanity with an Adept only requires using the right powers in the right circumstances, thats all.

True, on a level. Soldiers also need to use multiple tricks to be effective: different guns. You won't get far spamming just one gun the whole way. Or maybe you will, AR is quite powerful... possibly another reason why Adepts could be nerfed compared to Soldiers. As are engineers, which rely on the same principle of right powers in the right circumstances (minus the fact that engineers don't have power combos).

To finish, I believe BioWare emphasized the powerfulness of guns in ME2 because they tried to equalize the effectiveness of powers vs guns. Their point of view is that players generally aren't that good at aiming and handling guns, while using powers is just click and boom. 100% accuracy with instant powers; maybe 75 percent with projectile powers. They were aiming at the RPG / storyline players, not at the FPS players. Maybe I'm biased, as my aim could be sufficiently good to justify my saying that soldiers are more effective, even overpowered.

I think TheAverageGatsby touched on this in his Engineer series way back when, claiming that players are not finding the Engineer class popular because there's a discrepancy between using guns and using powers, and they require completely different skill sets. The problem was, he said (as I recall), that Engineers find it hard to deal with enemies with powers only, so they have to rely on guns; but guns aren't like powers, and players who like playing with guns would rather play the Soldier class, while players who like using powers in a classical RPG-way (Engineer being the Mage) aren't completely getting what they want with classes such as Engineer and Adept. I would agree with him in that while Engineers and Adepts are fun, the need for both types of player skills (using guns, using powers) to be utilized subtracts from that fun.

Modifié par cruc1al, 08 octobre 2010 - 11:34 .

[godlike13]

cruc1al wrote...

Second, Adepts are underpowered compared to soldiers when faced with defenses. More specifically, adepts can't deal with shields unless they invest in Energy Drain as a bonus power. In this way, bonus powers don't make Adepts "super Adepts" they just make them more close to the level of Soldiers, whereas bonus powers can make Soldiers "super Soldiers".

And arguably not having access to sniper rifles and ARs from the start, and having a 6 second cooldown on Warp, make Adepts less able to deal with armor too. I'm pretty sure I could demostrate empirically that Soldiers are more effective at taking down both types of defenses than than Adepts when not relying on squadmates (but it would take too much of my time). Adepts could be more effective perhaps against barriers, but even that's debatable (and dependent on player skill).

Kind of underestimating the SMG if u ask me. SMGs will deal with shields, as capable as any weapon the Solider has. The Locust alone is quite a beast. And im sorry but ur going to have a hard time selling to me that sniper rifles and ARs are going to be more effective then warp and its wonderful warp explosions when dealing with armor, especially when factoring in multiple opponents.

Modifié par godlike13, 08 octobre 2010 - 12:43 .

[cruc1al]

godlike13 wrote...

cruc1al wrote...

Second, Adepts are underpowered compared to soldiers when faced with defenses. More specifically, adepts can't deal with shields unless they invest in Energy Drain as a bonus power. In this way, bonus powers don't make Adepts "super Adepts" they just make them more close to the level of Soldiers, whereas bonus powers can make Soldiers "super Soldiers".

And arguably not having access to sniper rifles and ARs from the start, and having a 6 second cooldown on Warp, make Adepts less able to deal with armor too. I'm pretty sure I could demostrate empirically that Soldiers are more effective at taking down both types of defenses than than Adepts when not relying on squadmates (but it would take too much of my time). Adepts could be more effective perhaps against barriers, but even that's debatable (and dependent on player skill).

Kind of underestimating the SMG if u ask me. SMGs will deal with shields, as capable as any weapon the Solider has.

Uh, no. SMG are good, sure. They're not vindicators, mattocks, shotguns or vipers, however. As a soldier, you'll be shooting at shielded enemies with disruptor ammo all the time. As an adept, you're better off letting teammates with Overload deal with shields (of course, soldiers benefit from this too, but it's not really a requirement). Have you tried playing an adept solo mode on a shield heavy mission, compared to soldier? Have you then tried playing an adept solo mode on a barrier heavy mission, and seen what a huge difference it makes what type of defenses you're facing?

The Locust alone is quite a beast. And im sorry but ur going to have a hard time selling to me that sniper rifles and ARs are going to be more effective then warp and its wonderful warp explosions when dealing with armor, especially when factoring in multiple opponents.

To me, it sounds like you haven't even tried using Viper, Mattock, Widow or even Mantis and Vindicator.

Modifié par cruc1al, 08 octobre 2010 - 01:01 .

[swn32]

Bozorgmehr wrote..
.
I never said Soldier suck, I said they face the same problem as Adepts do

They dont face the same problems, ammo CC effects arent that big a deal for a soldier. The  damage boost, damage reduction, time dilation from an AR is what a soldier really depends on, and that doesnt decrease with harder difficulties. Mattock in AR is all the CC i need, ammo effects are just a bonus.

Soldiers can strip defenses just as fast as Adepts can do, AR makes aiming easier and provides a damage bonus - Adepts can strip both armor and barriers instantly using Warp (or much faster using Warp bombs)

Wrong, weapons dont have cooldowns. Even their reload times is faster than the lowest cooldown any power has got. 3 AR headshots from a Mattock can outdamage any power and you can continue firing atleast 10 more shots before the AR ends, which again has a lower cooldown than warp (the only defense stripping power). Do a YMIR mech test yourself, you'll know what i mean. I'm yet to see a video where an adept takes out YMIR mechs as quickly as a soldier.

Guns are the only things Soldiers can use (and they are very good in doing so); the claim that Adepts are supposedly underpowered faced with defenses is false. Powers are superior in every way compared to guns, they can strip defenses instantly. I rather use squadmate's Overload to remove shields then take them down using guns (some powers like Warp can be used on enemies out of sight, no gun can fire around corners) not to mention Adepts have guns too.

That is the most ridiculous claim I've seen. Did you forget powers have cooldowns, or the fact that their damage output is nothing compared to one widow shot or charged GPS. Adepts have no offensive power against shields, they have to use their bonus power slot for something like energy drain or spam the smg or use squadmates. The only thing warp has going for it is that you dont need to aim and you can fire around cover (then again enemies in cover are never an immediate threat). And regarding using squad mate overload, enjoy waiting 9-12 seconds for cooldown. 

I dunno which adept can have a Assault Rifle, Sniper Rifles and shotguns at the same time.

Those who consider Adept less powerful on Insanity don't know how to play; the only argument put forth is "biotics don't work on protection" - false again, all powers work on defenses and Singularity works on pretty much everything. Claiming Adept is harder to play on Insanity than Soldier is true, but that's only because Soldiers use one (very powerful) trick (which has no effect on enemies whatsoever) while Adepts can use multiple (less powerful) tricks that have to be used on enemies to work. To play effectively on Insanity with an Adept only requires using the right powers in the right circumstances, thats all.

Its not that they dont know how to play adept, its just that they know how to play soldier better. Also no one said all biotics powers dont work on protection. Most biotics powers are simply inferior when used on protection. Like singularity only locks enemies in place, shockwave merely stuns them for a second, pull and throw does nothing.

The thing is Adepts are powerful enough to beat the game on insanity fairly well. Just that they are nowhere as godlike as soldiers.

Modifié par swn32, 08 octobre 2010 - 01:30 .

[Bozorgmehr]

cruc1al wrote...

Soldiers can also use bonus powers, even biotics. Isn't that game breaking then? A super Soldier who can have Hardened Adrenaline Rush, Mattock, Viper AND Reave?

Soldier can use only one weapon and one power at the time - Reave is vastly inferior to AR; AR is always best option, by far the most powerful ability in ME2.

Second, Adepts are underpowered compared to soldiers when faced with defenses. More specifically, adepts can't deal with shields unless they invest in Energy Drain as a bonus power. In this way, bonus powers don't make Adepts "super Adepts" they just make them more close to the level of Soldiers, whereas bonus powers can make Soldiers "super Soldiers".

Why do Adepts need to invest in ED? Soldiers have to shoot as do Adepts; both can use Disruptor Ammo though Adepts need Zaeed to provide. No difference at all, Soldiers only benefit from AR, but Adepts can use powers too. One Singularity will drain entire trooper's shield, no need to shoot at all (but draining takes some time).

Bonus powers are useless for Soldiers, AR is always better. Only exception is Stasis (to OHOK YMIRs) and defensive powers such as Barrier, GSB and Fortification though only to be used before an engagement so it doesn't interfere with AR spamming.

And arguably not having access to sniper rifles and ARs from the start, and having a 6 second cooldown on Warp, make Adepts less able to deal with armor too. I'm pretty sure I could demostrate empirically that Soldiers are more effective at taking down both types of defenses than than Adepts when not relying on squadmates (but it would take too much of my time). Adepts could be more effective perhaps against barriers, but even that's debatable (and dependent on player skill).

Soldier can use Mantis and Incisor at the start, both are vastly inferior armor strippers compared to HP, Adepts can use Incediary Ammo like Soldiers can (Jacob/Grunt) - no difference.

How would you demonstrate empirically that Soldiers are 'better' taking down defenses?

That's a claim you'd need to demostrate. On a single low level enemy, powers ~ guns. Sometimes guns can one-shot the enemy in less than a second, sometimes power combos can neutralise the enemy with no risk whatsoever. On multiple enemies of varying strength, powers < guns, because powers have cooldown time and guns dont. And guns such as Widow can also one-shot defenses instantly, even on bosses, something which powers cannot do.

- Powers work instantly and take down defenses (over 90% of enemies)
- Powers can strip 3-4 enemies instantly (guns cannot even come close to this)
- Less time (if any) out of cover to do so, shooting exposes Shep

So yes powers are better defense strippers than guns can ever be. Yes you have to wait for cooldown, but same can be said when using guns - you can't stay out of cover all day; one needs to wait for regen before being able to shoot again.

Thing is, guns and ammo powers are what give Soldier their versatility. Powers are what is supposed to give adepts their versatility; and I would tend to agree with The Spamming Troll in that ME2 is a bit lacking in this department. More combo-capable powers and more combinations of powers for adepts are needed. Yet I'm also reluctant to do away with classes completely (but that hasn't been his argument for a couple of pages anyway).

The Spamming Troll hasn't mentioned combos that was me actually

The Spamming Troll wants super biotics - I don't

Both Adepts and Soldiers can use squadmates' Overload. What's your point?

That defense are no problem; just bring the right squadies and they will be gone in no time at all.

The guns that Adepts have are clearly inferior to those of Soldiers, as it should be. You know this and you probably agree that it's a good thing; class restrictions are what make classes unique. It's just that adepts shouldn't need to rely on guns as much for effectiveness and gameplay variety.

Adepts can use bonus weapon 80-90% of the game; they're not that far behind in terms of firepower. I agree that I would like to see more specialization in ME3 (give the player at least the option to chose to enhance their biotic capabilities instead of taking a bonus weapon - I did mention this before).

One has to remember that ME2 is a shooter first; claiming Adepts should not use guns at all is ridiculous (another thing the Spamming Troll doesn't like).

True, on a level. Soldiers also need to use multiple tricks to be effective: different guns. You won't get far spamming just one gun the whole way. Or maybe you will, AR is quite powerful... possibly another reason why Adepts could be nerfed compared to Soldiers. As are engineers, which rely on the same principle of right powers in the right circumstances (minus the fact that engineers don't have power combos).

Soldiers have only one trick AR; and, with access to Mattock, one gun (all other weapons are a joke compared to Mattock no matter the range or enemy; Adepts can use Mattock too)

Better to reverse; Soldiers need more and different powers instead of one super power - lot easier to tweak one class than to nerfe all the others don't you think?

To finish, I believe BioWare emphasized the powerfulness of guns in ME2 because they tried to equalize the effectiveness of powers vs guns. Their point of view is that players generally aren't that good at aiming and handling guns, while using powers is just click and boom. 100% accuracy with instant powers; maybe 75 percent with projectile powers. They were aiming at the RPG / storyline players, not at the FPS players. Maybe I'm biased, as my aim could be sufficiently good to justify my saying that soldiers are more effective, even overpowered.

Agreed; though I think it's much harder to use powers effectively (Insanity) than shooting. You have to use powers at the right time and most powers Shep can use have to travel to enemy first before taking effect. I believe the biggest 'mistake' with ME2 is the Soldier class. Nothing wrong with Soldiers, but since most people play Soldier first (and use AR to make shooting very easy - a joke really) they consider the other classes 'weak' coz shooting becomes harder and there are lesser guns to use. Bioware more or less 'gimped' all other classes by adding the vastly OP AR to the Soldier class. Just imagine ME2 without the Soldier; there would be a lot less complaining about classes being 'weak' - I don't think it's wise to compare everything to one (ill-designed) class.

I think TheAverageGatsby touched on this in his Engineer series way back when, claiming that players are not finding the Engineer class popular because there's a discrepancy between using guns and using powers, and they require completely different skill sets. The problem was, he said (as I recall), that Engineers find it hard to deal with enemies with powers only, so they have to rely on guns; but guns aren't like powers, and players who like playing with guns would rather play the Soldier class, while players who like using powers in a classical RPG-way (Engineer being the Mage) aren't completely getting what they want with classes such as Engineer and Adept. I would agree with him in that while Engineers and Adepts are fun, the need for both types of player skills (using guns, using powers) to be utilized subtracts from that fun.

We are talking Insantity here, right? Because none of this applies to Veteran or below where powers always work and without protection the Adept can kill faster than Soldier using powers alone. It's perfectly possible to play on normal difficulty settings if one likes to play the 'classical' rpg-way. Only the highest difficulty settings require a balanced playstyle (Adepts and Engineers need to use their guns and powers combined to make the most of it - something I can appreciate, I don't like one dimensional games).

Furthermore I don't really understand why people like to play without using guns. ME1 was a shooter; Adepts couldn't kill using powers alone, guns were needed to kill - powers just made sure enemies couldn't fire back (boring). Luckily this isn't the case in ME2 making the game much more intense and fun. Again I say; people who like to play on the hardest difficulty should be challenged; it requires practice and some skill - if you don't like to be challenged don't play Insanity or stop complaining (or stick with Soldiering).

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 08 octobre 2010 - 03:08 .

[termokanden]

I think a lot of us enjoy the mix of powers and guns. It's why Vanguard was my favorite class in ME1, and why I like the "casters" in ME2.

Engineer was the first class I played on Insanity in ME2 and I really enjoyed it. I found that having to combine the two skill sets of correctly using powers and aiming for the head made the game more fun for me, not less. Matter of personal preference I guess. I certainly disagree that it's a universal truth that games requiring multiple skill sets are less fun because of it.

Modifié par termokanden, 08 octobre 2010 - 03:19 .

[Bozorgmehr]

swn32 wrote...

They dont face the same problems, ammo CC effects arent that big a deal for a soldier. The  damage boost, damage reduction, time dilation from an AR is what a soldier really depends on, and that doesnt decrease with harder difficulties. Mattock in AR is all the CC i need, ammo effects are just a bonus.

Soldiers have AR, Adepts have biotics. Both can use Mattock - you cannot compare AR to any of the powers Adepts can use; AR is a passive ability, biotics are active abilities. AR does nothing to enemies, biotics don't boost Shep combat skills (they must be used on enemies to be effective)

Wrong, weapons dont have cooldowns. Even their reload times is faster than the lowest cooldown any power has got. 3 AR headshots from a Mattock can outdamage any power and you can continue firing atleast 10 more shots before the AR ends, which again has a lower cooldown than warp (the only defense stripping power). Do a YMIR mech test yourself, you'll know what i mean. I'm yet to see a video where an adept takes out YMIR mechs as quickly as a soldier.

- Claymore takes 2.5 s to reload; Pull and Throw have a 1.5 s cd (with upgrades)
- Adept can use mattock too
- Adept vs 2 YMIRs [around 6:00] - they're both gone in 30 s and I ran out of Mattock ammo, they can be killed much faster using Evi or GPS though, not bad for an Adept and not that far behind what Soldiers can do.

That is the most ridiculous claim I've seen. Did you forget powers have cooldowns, or the fact that their damage output is nothing compared to one widow shot or charged GPS. Adepts have no offensive power against shields, they have to use their bonus power slot for something like energy drain or spam the smg or use squadmates. The only thing warp has going for it is that you dont need to aim and you can fire around cover (then again enemies in cover are never an immediate threat). And regarding using squad mate overload, enjoy waiting 9-12 seconds for cooldown.

- Soldiers have no offensive powers against shields either, only their guns (as do Adeps)
- Adepts can use GPS
- No gun can take down 3-4 enemy shields in less than a second, powers can
- An Adept using (Area) ED on a group of shielded enemies + using Mattock can do lots of damage; A Soldier can do the same (using ED) or they can use AR once (ED is on a 3-4 s cd for an Adept); I don't think there will be a huge difference in damage output.

I dunno which adept can have a Assault Rifle, Sniper Rifles and shotguns at the same time.

I believe you said Mattock is only weapon needed for a Soldier

Its not that they dont know how to play adept, its just that they know how to play soldier better. Also no one said all biotics powers dont work on protection. Most biotics powers are simply inferior when used on protection. Like singularity only locks enemies in place, shockwave merely stuns them for a second, pull and throw does nothing.

- Singularity drains all defenses and will remove any sort of defense of normal enemies in a few seconds
- Pull and Throw damage enemy defenses (a little) and stagger them; pretty nice for a 1.5 s cooldown. You can stagger protected enemies permanently while you remove defenses
- Adept have multiple skills; Soldiers only one - of course its easier to play Soldier

The thing is Adepts are powerful enough to beat the game on insanity
fairly well. Just that they are nowhere as godlike as soldiers.

I consider biotic powers to be more divine than ordinary gunfire, but thats just me

If you like to finish the game as fast as possible you need the other biotic class; the Vanguard.

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 08 octobre 2010 - 03:23 .

[godlike13]

cruc1al wrote...

Uh, no. SMG are good, sure. They're not vindicators, mattocks, shotguns or vipers, however.

Um actually, against Shields they are. Ur severely underestimating SMGs here. Against Shields, they're right up there with vindicators, mattocks, shotguns or vipers.

cruc1al wrote...

As a soldier, you'll be shooting at shielded enemies with disruptor ammo all the time. As an adept, you're better off letting teammates with Overload deal with shields (of course, soldiers benefit from this too, but it's not really a requirement). Have you tried playing an adept solo mode on a shield heavy mission, compared to soldier? Have you then tried playing an adept solo mode on a barrier heavy mission, and seen what a huge difference it makes what type of defenses you're facing?

And as a Adept you'll be shooting at shielded enemies with ur SMG, hopefully bringing Zaeed along so u too can utilize disruptor ammo, while throwing out powers, and warping any armor u happen to see. Of course there's a difference between Adepts and Soldiers, but neither is necessarily lesser compared to the other.

cruc1al wrote...

To me, it sounds like you haven't even tried using Viper, Mattock, Widow or even Mantis and Vindicator.

Actually i have, that's why im saying ur underestimating SMGs when it comes to shields. Against shields the Locust is actually going to do comparable damage to the Viper, and Vindicator, and better damage than the Widow, or even Mantis. All at a continues fire rate, pinpoint accuracy, and reliable ammo. The only gun that i'd say clear out beats it is the Mattock, but that gun is in a league of its own.

Modifié par godlike13, 08 octobre 2010 - 03:44 .

[Bozorgmehr]

termokanden wrote...

I think a lot of us enjoy the mix of powers and guns. It's why Vanguard was my favorite class in ME1, and why I like the "casters" in ME2.

Engineer was the first class I played on Insanity in ME2 and I really enjoyed it. I found that having to combine the two skill sets of correctly using powers and aiming for the head made the game more fun for me, not less. Matter of personal preference I guess. I certainly disagree that it's a universal truth that games requiring multiple skill sets are less fun because of it.

Same here I like to be challenged a bit, and one of the reasons I focused on the Adept class was because of all the fuss about Adepts being weak and boring. All it takes is some practice and skill; making the game much more enjoyable than to run through it without any serious opposition (something I don't like about most games, they are too easy).

I love games that have some depth instead of an 'I Win' button. I rather die 10 times to complete a task than get through without any opposition (I might be one of those species on the break of extintion; since most people, or at least the devs, reason the other way around) - It won't be long until one only needs to wave the kinetic controller (blindly) and guess what; You've done it

[cruc1al]

[quote]Bozorgmehr wrote...

[quote]cruc1al wrote...

Soldiers can also use bonus powers, even biotics. Isn't that game breaking then? A super Soldier who can have Hardened Adrenaline Rush, Mattock, Viper AND Reave?[/quote]

Soldier can use only one weapon and one power at the time - Reave is vastly inferior to AR; AR is always best option, by far the most powerful ability in ME2.

[/quote]

Possibly you're right... But Reave does have its uses, such as the health regeneration + instant CC + damage combination that is a very effective "oh crap" ability; similar to energy drain on shield-heavy missions. Both are preferable to shield boost abilities as "oh crap" abilities because of lower cooldown.

[quote][quote]
Second, Adepts are underpowered compared to soldiers when faced with defenses. More specifically, adepts can't deal with shields unless they invest in Energy Drain as a bonus power. In this way, bonus powers don't make Adepts "super Adepts" they just make them more close to the level of Soldiers, whereas bonus powers can make Soldiers "super Soldiers".[/quote]

Why do Adepts need to invest in ED? Soldiers have to shoot as do Adepts; both can use Disruptor Ammo though Adepts need Zaeed to provide.
[/quote]

If Adepts needs to rely on a squadmate for an ability, they are handicapped. Being forced to use Zaeed for having an anti-shield ability, and being forced to go the route of choosing squad disruptor in the first place, is a handicap. Soldiers can just invest in their own ability and choose whichever squadmates they want.

Furthermore, adepts should have to shoot. There's no reason biotics shouldn't work on shielded or armored enemies; it's just a game mechanic that reflects the ineptness of the designers to balance biotics without sacrificing realism.

[quote]One Singularity will drain entire trooper's shield, no need to shoot at all (but draining takes some time).[/quote]

Exactly. Needing to wait for singularity to drain shields is a liability. It will only work when you're not in any danger of being flanked while waiting, and if you like boring sit-behind-cover-and-wait gameplay.

[quote]How would you demonstrate empirically that Soldiers are 'better' taking down defenses?[/quote]

By experimentally testing it? Having various people play an adept and a soldier of equal level in the same situation with no squadmates and recording the time taken to finish?

[quote]
So yes powers are better defense strippers than guns can ever be. Yes you have to wait for cooldown, but same can be said when using guns - you can't stay out of cover all day; one needs to wait for regen before being able to shoot again.

[/quote]

You can't? What about the high health capacity of  soldiers, and the shield buff abilities you mentioned? What about reave / energy drain? And what about shooting with AR on when the enemy is relaoding? Soldiers can stay out of cover for plenty of time and make the most out of their weapons.

[quote]
Thing is, guns and ammo powers are what give Soldier their versatility. Powers are what is supposed to give adepts their versatility; and I would tend to agree with The Spamming Troll in that ME2 is a bit lacking in this department. More combo-capable powers and more combinations of powers for adepts are needed. Yet I'm also reluctant to do away with classes completely (but that hasn't been his argument for a couple of pages anyway).[/quote]

The Spamming Troll hasn't mentioned combos that was me actually [/quote]

I'm sure he wouldn't object to having more combos

[quote]The Spamming Troll wants super biotics - I don't[/quote]

I cant really see how you can justify that he wants super biotics. To me, it seems more like that he wants Adept to be more customizable and realistic in the set of abilities that can be chosen, and that having to rely on guns on insanity isn't what the Adept is about; not that he could own everything by pressing a button. Saying that it'd be great to have lots of different abilities to choose from, even having many of them available simultaneously, doesn't automatically mean the game cannot be balanced around such a system.

[quote][quote]
Both Adepts and Soldiers can use squadmates' Overload. What's your point? [/quote]

That defense are no problem; just bring the right squadies and they will be gone in no time at all.[/quote]

The defenses are a problem, unless you bring the right squaddies. Which is not true for the soldier. See? Playing an adept restricts your choices if you want to be as effective as a soldier. Is that roleplaying?

[quote][quote]
The guns that Adepts have are clearly inferior to those of Soldiers, as it should be. You know this and you probably agree that it's a good thing; class restrictions are what make classes unique. It's just that adepts shouldn't need to rely on guns as much for effectiveness and gameplay variety.[/quote]

Adepts can use bonus weapon 80-90% of the game[/quote]

The collector ship mission isn't 10% throught the game. 20% perhaps, but only if you have many DLC missions and decide not to do them and some of the side missions before Horizon. Which, again, is an artificial way to restrict choice. And you only get to choose one weapon on the collector ship, not three. And you can't have Revenant or Widow. They are far behind in terms of firepower.

[quote]One has to remember that ME2 is a shooter first; claiming Adepts should not use guns at all is ridiculous (another thing the Spamming Troll doesn't like). [/quote]

No one's saying they shouldn't use guns. They just shouldn't need to rely on them. ME2 is a shooter when you're playing a soldier, but BioWare tried to balance the game around Normal difficulty, claiming that Adept can take care of enemies without guns, which certainly is true on Normal difficulty. They clearly intended that Adepts are biotic specialists, not gun-toting weak soldiers who have some biotic abilities to help them along. It is only on the higher difficulties where the idea of the all-biotic Adept breaks down and loses its functionality; and this seems to be where The Spamming Troll's frustration stems from.

[quote]Soldiers have only one trick AR; and, with access to Mattock, one gun (all other weapons are a joke compared to Mattock no matter the range or enemy; Adepts can use Mattock too)[/quote]

Well that's another issue altogether. Sounds like the Mattock breaks the game balance.

[quote]though I think it's much harder to use powers effectively (Insanity) than shooting.[/quote]

Yes, I agree too. Maybe we're too good at aiming.

[quote]You have to use powers at the right time and most powers Shep can use have to travel to enemy first before taking effect. I believe the biggest 'mistake' with ME2 is the Soldier class. Nothing wrong with Soldiers, but since most people play Soldier first (and use AR to make shooting very easy - a joke really) they consider the other classes 'weak' coz shooting becomes harder and there are lesser guns to use. Bioware more or less 'gimped' all other classes by adding the vastly OP AR to the Soldier class. Just imagine ME2 without the Soldier; there would be a lot less complaining about classes being 'weak' - I don't think it's wise to compare everything to one (ill-designed) class.[/quote]

Good points here. Soldier is too powerful. The game should instead be balanced around each class being about as powerful, versatile and unique, but in different ways that allow for more customization than what is currently available.

[cruc1al]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

- Soldiers have no offensive powers against shields either, only their guns (as do Adeps)

Any particular reason you disqualify disruptor ammo and AR as offensive powers?

- No gun can take down 3-4 enemy shields in less than a second, powers can

Adepts can do that only with a warp bomb or a bonus power. In the former case you have to be pretty lucky to get 3-4 low-level armored or barriered enemies bunched together with an unprotected enemy in the middle for a pull+warp combo, and even then, the combo will take at least 3 seconds to execute, not less than one second.

- Singularity drains all defenses and will remove any sort of defense of normal enemies in a few seconds

This is demonstrably false. Singularity will expire before it can take out any defense of any enemy as far as I'm aware. You'll have to cast another one if you want to drain the whole bar.

[swn32]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Soldiers have AR, Adepts have biotics. Both can use Mattock - you cannot compare AR to any of the powers Adepts can use; AR is a passive ability, biotics are active abilities. AR does nothing to enemies, biotics don't boost Shep combat skills (they must be used on enemies to be effective)

Its not a passive ability. A passive ability is something you never have to activate and it always boosts your stats. AR has to be used manually. Its more of a temporary buff. And an awesome buff which makes mattock much more useful in the hands of a soldier than an adept. You can fire at the full rate of 750 rpm while u are in AR. There is no way you can do more than 8 clicks per second without it, and you are bound to miss because of the recoil. AR alone can turn Mattock from a regular weapon to a godlike one. Mattock simply isnt the beast on Adepts as it's on soldiers.

- Claymore takes 2.5 s to reload; Pull and Throw have a 1.5 s cd (with upgrades)
- Adept can use mattock too
- Adept vs 2 YMIRs [around 6:00] - they're both gone in 30 s and I ran out of Mattock ammo, they can be killed much faster using Evi or GPS though, not bad for an Adept and not that far behind what Soldiers can do.

-Claymore takes 1.4 seconds to refire thanks to reload cancellation which Christina confirmed was intended game design and not a glitch. Also the base damage of claymore is more than most defense stripping power. If you factor in range bonus, research upgrades and multipliers it would become imba. Also, pull and throw do not work on defense, a claymore with cryo ammo will freeze and enemy regardless of defenses because of 8 seperate damage calls instead of 1.

-Adepts can use Mattock, at the cost of GPS or Viper. Each of those weapons have their own utility, GPS quickly eats through shields and barriers like those of YMIR mechs, Praetorean, Geth Collosus. Viper is godly against heavily armored targets like gunships, scions, thresher maw, YMIR mechs, Geth Collosus, Occulus. Where as Mattock is great for quickly clearing multiple enemies. Adepts can have only one of these weapons and have to rely on powers for the rest which does very weak damage in comparison considering the cooldown times.

-Those 2 YMIR mechs in 30 seconds, that was done by using bonus power stasis and mattock, which any class has access to. Nothing unique to adept. In fact if stasis trick is used, you can one shot both the YMIR mechs with the GPS in under 10 seconds. But even without exploits, soldiers can take out the 2 YMIR mechs faster using GPS for shields and Viper for armor.

- Soldiers have no offensive powers against shields either, only their guns (as do Adeps)
- Adepts can use GPS
- No gun can take down 3-4 enemy shields in less than a second, powers can
- An Adept using (Area) ED on a group of shielded enemies + using Mattock can do lots of damage; A Soldier can do the same (using ED) or they can use AR once (ED is on a 3-4 s cd for an Adept); I don't think there will be a huge difference in damage output.

-The damage bonus AR gives is universal. You are getting a bonus of atleast 100% damage for every shot you fire, it also improves your headshot percentage which is a bonus by itself. Thats all the offense you need. There is no soldier power that does direct damage (other than lame CS), but who needs it when you have a buff so insane that it beats any other offensive power. If you fire a Widow shot in adrenaline Rush, the damage bonus u get against armor is more than what you would get even with heavy reave. Isn't that offensive enough? You are underestimating the utility of buffs. Not every power needs to directly do damage for it to be insane. Adepts dont get this buff with their weapons and thus their weapon utility is reduced.

-GPS at the cost of Mattock or Viper.

-You can easily take out shields of 3-4 enemies in under 1 second of ingame time with Mattock+AR. Then again I usually go in for the kill instead of just taking out shields. Even then, its possible to KILL 2-3 guys over the course of one AR, which lasts for a little more than 1 second game time.

-Again its not unique to Adept, and there are conditions (like clustered shield enemies) that need to be met.

I believe you said Mattock is only weapon needed for a Soldier.

For most of the game Mattock is enough, but the low ammo capacity may require u to switch to a more specialized weapon to take out some defense, like Viper or GPS. Also if you keep using Mattock without AR, you will most likely run out of ammo because of misses, less headshots and less damage per bullet. Mattock isn't sufficient for Adepts. Its not even sufficient for soldiers, you need to switch to GPS and Viper every once in a while against those tough enemies. But for most part, it will be your primary weapon.

- Singularity drains all defenses and will remove any sort of defense of normal enemies in a few seconds
- Pull and Throw damage enemy defenses (a little) and stagger them; pretty nice for a 1.5 s cooldown. You can stagger protected enemies permanently while you remove defenses
- Adept have multiple skills; Soldiers only one - of course its easier to play Soldier

-OK

-I doubt you'd want to waste a 1.5s cooldown just to stagger an enemy. Against unprotected enemies its more useful though. On defense its a waste of cooldown time.

-Adepts have multiple skills but because of shared cooldown, you can use only one skill at once. Soldiers have one skill that can be used in every situation and thats all it needs. The ammo powers soldiers have will not interfere with the cooldown and thus is an added bonus.

I consider biotic powers to be more divine than ordinary gunfire, but thats just me

If you like to finish the game as fast as possible you need the other biotic class; the Vanguard.

Even I have a blast playing as a biotic. They are a lot of fun to play as. But I still think soldiers are overpowered in comparison. I'm not saying they are more fun, thats just a matter of personal preference.

Also vanguard isn't a pure biotic class, a biotic/combat class.

Modifié par swn32, 08 octobre 2010 - 07:41 .

[Permutation]

My goal is not to complain. I just want the adept to have better offensive and defensive abilities. An adept that can tank and still unleash biotic hell on enemies. I personally preferred the old barrier from ME1, that was it's own separate barrier with it's own stats over shields, that could take 1000 points of damage, and not simply a percentage of existing barrier/shields. THAT to me feels more like an adept. Take a look and Samara, Jacob and Jack. There's no way either of them would limit themselves to a barrier that can only take 300-400 points of damage. What's the point? On Insanity it makes no difference.

Shockwave is a awesome, but on Insanity it has almost no effect on shields/armor. That could be changed. I think when fully upgraded, from the ground shockwave should produce armor-breaking spikes. If it has the potential to shoot an enemy 50 feet in the air, it can surely devastate a little armor and disrupt some shields on any difficulty.

I think singularity should be a lot more similar to the one that fires from the M-490, except instantaneous and with the existing blue-ish hue. Increase the cooldown if you have to, but THAT is a unique ability. The current is more like a bathtub drain with very little effect, the enemies swirl about but never go down. Doesn't feel much like a singularity at all.

[JaegerBane]

Permutation wrote...

My goal is not to complain. I just want the adept to have better offensive and defensive abilities. An adept that can tank and still unleash biotic hell on enemies. I personally preferred the old barrier from ME1, that was it's own separate barrier with it's own stats over shields, that could take 1000 points of damage, and not simply a percentage of existing barrier/shields. THAT to me feels more like an adept. Take a look and Samara, Jacob and Jack. There's no way either of them would limit themselves to a barrier that can only take 300-400 points of damage. What's the point? On Insanity it makes no difference.

The inevitable answer to this is that the game was balanced for play on Normal. Adepts on Normal *are* bordering on overpowered, particularly when heavily upgraded.

It's fair to say that Insanity just wasn't thought through properly - in places, the difficulty level almost feels like an afterthought. Shockwave is a perfect example of this - I'd be very surprised if there was much consideration put in when you see stuff like that.

Shockwave is a awesome, but on Insanity it has almost no effect on shields/armor. That could be changed. I think when fully upgraded, from the ground shockwave should produce armor-breaking spikes. If it has the potential to shoot an enemy 50 feet in the air, it can surely devastate a little armor and disrupt some shields on any difficulty.

Again, the issue here is that the simple fact is, the whole defence system just doesn't make sense. There's no good reason why a bit of armour somehow allows it's wearer to be immune to being thrown through the air. I agree that the best thing for Shockwave would be to amp up it's anti-defence abilities, but I can't shake the feeling that this would be putting a band-aid on a problem as oppose to fixing it.

I think singularity should be a lot more similar to the one that fires from the M-490, except instantaneous and with the existing blue-ish hue. Increase the cooldown if you have to, but THAT is a unique ability. The current is more like a bathtub drain with very little effect, the enemies swirl about but never go down. Doesn't feel much like a singularity at all.

I think Singularity was a power where the developers focused too much on it's gameplay function and not enough on it's depiction and power. Singularity in ME1 was ridiculously powerful but, if nothing else, it matched the kind of power that biotics were described as having. Singularity in ME2 actually functions more like Stasis, and ultimately, it doesn't really offer anything particularly unique compared to other class skills. It's effectively just an Advanced form of Pull. Compared to stuff like Adrenaline Rush, Charge and Drone, you can't help but think that they didn't really think it through when they were developing the Adept class.

I really do think that, in ME3, the developers need to put a bit more effort into developing a plausible game system. ME1 had lots of gameplay issues but it was mostly plausible and different roles for techs, firepower and biotics were made clear, while ME2 had a much more balanced gameplay system that came with the cost of it overly favouring firepower and, in some cases, was so nonsensical it actully began to strain the suspension of disbelief.

[Permutation]

Overall, I think the devs did a wonderful job. I'm just sharing my opinion at this point.

Now, THIS is a singularity:

If that was a fully upgraded singularity, minus the gold hue and being a projectile, we'd be on to something I think.

Modifié par Permutation, 08 octobre 2010 - 09:17 .

[Bozorgmehr]

[quote]cruc1al wrote...

Possibly you're right... But Reave does have its uses, such as the health regeneration + instant CC + damage combination that is a very effective "oh crap" ability; similar to energy drain on shield-heavy missions. Both are preferable to shield boost abilities as "oh crap" abilities because of lower cooldown.[/quote]

No they are not. First; you can only use both powers in particular circumstances (organic enemies' defenses must be removed / shielded or (defenseless) synthetic enemies must be around); this is highly situational. Second; they don't work (like all other powers and medkits) when you are ignited by Pyros, hit by a rocket/warp/incinerate etc - powers like Barrier work always, no animation, no delay in ROF, no matter the circumstances. If you press the button when your health is almost entirely gone; you've got your shield back up: the ultimate 'oh crap' power.

[quote]
If Adepts needs to rely on a squadmate for an ability, they are handicapped. Being forced to use Zaeed for having an anti-shield ability, and being forced to go the route of choosing squad disruptor in the first place, is a handicap. Soldiers can just invest in their own ability and choose whichever squadmates they want.[/quote]

I never bring Zaeed playing Adept because Disruptor Ammo isn't needed at all. I only value the CC effect on synthetics, but since I use ED on Geth mission you can't die anyway. The bonus against shields is minimal; I either use a SG or an AR (locust before bonus weapon), Disrupter Ammo will save maybe one shot if any at all to remove shields - I rather bring an Overload squadmate; to increase overall effectiveness and to detonate Destroyers.

[quote]
Exactly. Needing to wait for singularity to drain shields is a liability. It will only work when you're not in any danger of being flanked while waiting, and if you like boring sit-behind-cover-and-wait gameplay.[/quote]

Why wait? I toss a Singularity on one guy, shoot and/or kill another (or more) before getting back to the now unprotected enemy. BTW I hardly ever use cover with the Adept; not needed anyway if you know how to use the Adept's powers effectively.

[quote]
By experimentally testing it? Having various people play an adept and a soldier of equal level in the same situation with no squadmates and recording the time taken to finish?[/quote]

Possibly, but very unreliable. Even if same person plays the same level with the same class & build a dozen times, results will be different (and differences can become quite large and it depends on luck too). Furthermore, ME2 is a teambased game, removing squadmates changes game parameters thus results will not provide a 'realistic' comparison.

I know you like playing solo Cruc1al (I've been playing without squadies too for a while - thanks to your help with modding) and I'm the first to admit that Soldiers can clear levels faster than Adepts (solo - on Insanity, not on Normal), but that's irrelevant. With squadies, difference will be very small. For example, I can clear the CS platforms with my Adept in one minute and that's because I have to wait for the platforms to come in; check some of my vids in my sig and tell me if a Soldier can clear those levels faster than I did with my Adept. Sure they can, but difference will be measured in seconds rather than minutes and I don't care if I run through the Dantius Towers in 7 minutes or in 6:45

[quote]
You can't? What about the high health capacity of  soldiers, and the shield buff abilities you mentioned? What about reave / energy drain? And what about shooting with AR on when the enemy is relaoding? Soldiers can stay out of cover for plenty of time and make the most out of their weapons.[/quote]

So can Adepts; I don't think there's that much difference in time spent out of cover between Soldier and Adept.

[quote]
I cant really see how you can justify that he wants super biotics. To me, it seems more like that he wants Adept to be more customizable and realistic in the set of abilities that can be chosen, and that having to rely on guns on insanity isn't what the Adept is about; not that he could own everything by pressing a button. Saying that it'd be great to have lots of different abilities to choose from, even having many of them available simultaneously, doesn't automatically mean the game cannot be balanced around such a system.[/quote]

I cannot speak for The Spamming Troll, but all I see and hear is:
- global cooldown removal
- more powers for the Adept
- powers should work all the time
- super powers
- no guns needed

All this breaks the game; and ideas put forth by Pacifien, JaegerBane, myself and others, to make classes more customizable but without dumping the class system all together is thwarted by The Spamming Troll; claiming I'm
"creating an argument with myself" 

[quote]
The defenses are a problem, unless you bring the right squaddies. Which is not true for the soldier. See? Playing an adept restricts your choices if you want to be as effective as a soldier. Is that roleplaying?[/quote]

For a Soldier defenses don't matter much - all they can do is shoot, this doesn't change once defenses are down. Defenses are not a problem for the Adept per se, but they do limit the use of biotic powers - I agree with that. But defenses don't interfere with the Adept's overall effectiveness, in fact, defense are the only thing Adepts should worry about. Once they're out of the way you can use biotics to finish them or disable them and focus on another enemy with defenses - Soldiers are only half way once defenses are down and have to fire (at least) as many bullets to kill enemies.

[quote]
The collector ship mission isn't 10% throught the game. 20% perhaps, but only if you have many DLC missions and decide not to do them and some of the side missions before Horizon. Which, again, is an artificial way to restrict choice. And you only get to choose one weapon on the collector ship, not three. And you can't have Revenant or Widow. They are far behind in terms of firepower.[/quote]

You only have to do Mordin's, Grunt's, Garrus' and Jack's RM + Horizon; after that you pick up Zaeed and Kasumi (if you have the dlc; otherwise you'll need to recruit another squadmate), do the Fire Walker missions and you're going to the Collector Ship. This leaves all LMs + 3 (or 4) RMs and all the N7 Assignments with combat involved.

This means doing 5 major mission before getting bonus weapon; leaving 12 LM + 4 RM + LothSB + Overlord + all the interesting N7 missions.

Soldiers can only pick one of those weapons; and with the arrival of the Mattock and GPS they've become redundant anyway - they do have a unique feel though and I use them just for the fun factor (something I believe the Adept class excels at) plus you can mod weapons (you cannot mod powers, except bonus powers). I love using Claymore on my Adept; sure there're better and more effective weapons out there, but nothing beast the excitement blasting enemy' faces off with the Claymore (esspecially with a class most people considered to be weak and cover addictive)

[quote]
No one's saying they shouldn't use guns. They just shouldn't need to rely on them. ME2 is a shooter when you're playing a soldier, but BioWare tried to balance the game around Normal difficulty, claiming that Adept can take care of enemies without guns, which certainly is true on Normal difficulty. They clearly intended that Adepts are biotic specialists, not gun-toting weak soldiers who have some biotic abilities to help them along. It is only on the higher difficulties where the idea of the all-biotic Adept breaks down and loses its functionality; and this seems to be where The Spamming Troll's frustration stems from.[/quote]

Very true. ME2 is designed to be a shooter first and they added some powers to spice things up. The system works very well on Normal, but (like almost all games) things are becoming 'unbalanced' on higher settings. I have to say I prefer the 'defense'-system over the usual 'enemy health x10, enemy damage x10 etc'-system, making things very unrealistic (the need to shoot enemies a couple dozen time in the head doesn't make sense to me). The only issue (though because ME2 is single player doesn't makes it a real issue anyway) is the system affects some classes more. Soldiers are only class that actually becomes more dynamic on Insanity (finally the other (ammo) powers become useful - on Normal enemies die with a single shot no matter the ammo used). Adepts on the other hand 'suffer' most, their powers lose some of their potential. I like it this way, otherwise things would be like ME1: no opposition at all because (protected) enemies would be floating around helpless everywere. The ME2 system isn't perfect, but it's a vast improvement.

I believe I already posted this earlier, but I would like to see something that would give the Adept (and other casters) the option to specialize in some way at the cost of firepower. Maybe options like the choice (lvl 4) to use current power, or to have it work against (a particular type of) defenses at the cost of a (much higher) cooldown - though this is pretty irrelevant on Normal complicating things. Well it's just an idea:)

[quote]
Well that's another issue altogether. Sounds like the Mattock breaks the game balance.[/quote]

It does, as does the GPS.

[quote]
Yes, I agree too. Maybe we're too good at aiming.[/quote]


[quote]
Good points here. Soldier is too powerful. The game should instead be balanced around each class being about as powerful, versatile and unique, but in different ways that allow for more customization than what is currently available.[/quote]

Exactly! The problem is that it's very difficult to come up with many different abilities, using completely different mechanics and keep things balanced. Without multiplayer I don't care about balance issues much, but I do like more choices, opening new ways to play. I prefer this over a well balanced, but somewhat straightforward game were everybody uses the same tactics/strategy.

[quote]
There's no reason
biotics shouldn't work on shielded or armored enemies; it's just a game mechanic that reflects the ineptness of the designers to balance biotics without sacrificing realism.[/quote]

They sacrificed realism to keep the game realistic yes, this may sound contradictorily, but the current system keeps enemy HP relatively low bypassing the unrealistic 'having to kill enemies over and over'-system at the cost of limiting power effectiveness. I think most issues can be solved if Bioware looks beyond Normal difficulty, at the moment the game just adds defenses but everything else remains the same. Should they opt to look things over to increase balance and overall gameplay using the defense-system too, I believe ME3 will have the best difficulty system since years.

[quote]
Any particular reason you disqualify disruptor ammo and AR as offensive powers?[/quote]

If Adepts have no offensive powers against shields (that was the argument), Soldiers don't have them either. Both AR and Disruptor Ammo boost weapon damage; they are not like the powers the Adept can use. I assumed guns weren't taken into account since ED was considered to be only way Adepts could take down shields

[quote]
Adepts can do that only with a warp bomb or a bonus power. In the former case you have to be pretty lucky to get 3-4 low-level armored or barriered enemies bunched together with an unprotected enemy in the middle for a  pull+warp combo, and even then, the combo will take at least 3 seconds to execute, not less than one second.[/quote]

I wasn't talking about the Adept, but about powers in general. Adepts have an advantage here though, since most enemies popup in doorways, corridors or other choke points, it's quite easy to keep them clustered using Singularity.

[quote]
This is demonstrably false. Singularity will expire before it can take out any defense of any enemy as far as I'm aware. You'll have to cast another one if you want to drain the whole bar.
[/quote]

Singularity's effects are pretty erratic, but this happens quite frequently though I use the heavy version of course. There are not that may examples in my vids (most enemies are shot at in the mean time), but I know of two examples; one against barrier [1:59] and one against shield [6:30]. Both enemies had full defenses and don't get hit by gunfire - not only did Singularity removed defenses, it also ragdolled them so they could be warped.

PS Damn, this quite a wall of text, I think the Spamming Troll would be proud of me

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 08 octobre 2010 - 09:07 .

[Bozorgmehr]

swn32 wrote...

Its not a passive ability. A passive ability is something you never have to activate and it always boosts your stats. AR has to be used manually. Its more of a temporary buff. And an awesome buff which makes mattock much more useful in the hands of a soldier than an adept. You can fire at the full rate of 750 rpm while u are in AR. There is no way you can do more than 8 clicks per second without it, and you are bound to miss because of the recoil. AR alone can turn Mattock from a regular weapon to a godlike one. Mattock simply isnt the beast on Adepts as it's on soldiers.

Would have been weird if Adept could outgun a Soldier. My point was that AR works rather different than the Adept's biotic arsenal. Soldiers have powers to increase weapon damage, they need to shoot in order to benefit; Adepts have powers to disable or kill enemies, they don't increase the Adept's firepower (though ragdolled enemies take more damage) instead they have to be targeted directly at an enemy, quite different.

-Claymore takes 1.4 seconds to refire thanks to reload cancellation which Christina confirmed was intended game design and not a glitch. Also the base damage of claymore is more than most defense stripping power. If you factor in range bonus, research upgrades and multipliers it would become imba. Also, pull and throw do not work on defense, a claymore with cryo ammo will freeze and enemy regardless of defenses because of 8 seperate damage calls instead of 1.

-Adepts can use Mattock, at the cost of GPS or Viper. Each of those weapons have their own utility, GPS quickly eats through shields and barriers like those of YMIR mechs, Praetorean, Geth Collosus. Viper is godly against heavily armored targets like gunships, scions, thresher maw, YMIR mechs, Geth Collosus, Occulus. Where as Mattock is great for quickly clearing multiple enemies. Adepts can have only one of these weapons and have to rely on powers for the rest which does very weak damage in comparison considering the cooldown times.

-Those 2 YMIR mechs in 30 seconds, that was done by using bonus power stasis and mattock, which any class has access to. Nothing unique to adept. In fact if stasis trick is used, you can one shot both the YMIR mechs with the GPS in under 10 seconds. But even without exploits, soldiers can take out the 2 YMIR mechs faster using GPS for shields and Viper for armor.

- I use Claymore on my Adept and I'm an officer of Kronner's Claymore fanclub, so I kinda know a bit how it works. Adepts can use their powers between shots (using reload trick), they can use Pull and Throw between every shot, the other powers between two shots - it's very hard to target one enemy with Claymore and another with powers, but it works out now and then. Furthermore, reload trick can be used with all weapons, and I use it all the time no matter the class, Claymore only benefits most coz it needs to be reloaded after every shot. You can easily OHOK 90% of enemies with Claymore, Cryo Ammo is useless then plus it takes time before enemies are frozen, biotics are better.

- Mattocks is great against everything you mentioned and if you take into account the time needed to swiych weapons, things will be over much quicker using the Mattock alone. BTW, I don't consider YMIRs ordinary enemies, they're not the best example to use. I also said they could be killed much faster if I had equiped my Adepts with GPS (I didn't because I hate that thing). Only Vanguards can take out 2 YMIRs without cover and medkits, Soldiers can't (nor can Adepts for the record).

- The Adept's powers are quite formidable. One simple little Throw can instakill a Krogan with full health for example, not bad for a 1.5 s cooldown. The Adept also excels add CC, a Pulled enemy (=death enemy) can't fight back, so even without direct damage it still increases combat effectiveness a lot (1.5 s cd also). If there wasn't a global cooldown system, the Adept would make the Soldier look like a fool. But I wouldn't want that because it breaks the game though the OP suggested something like this earlier.

The damage bonus AR gives is universal. You are getting a bonus of atleast 100% damage for every shot you fire, it also improves your headshot percentage which is a bonus by itself. Thats all the offense you need. There is no soldier power that does direct damage (other than lame CS), but who needs it when you have a buff so insane that it beats any other offensive power. If you fire a Widow shot in adrenaline Rush, the damage bonus u get against armor is more than what you would get even with heavy reave. Isn't that offensive enough? You are underestimating the utility of buffs. Not every power needs to directly do damage for it to be insane. Adepts dont get this buff with their weapons and thus their weapon utility is reduced.

Where did you hear me say AR is weak? It's the most OP power around and the single reason I consider the Soldier class the worst in ME2. They are just too powerful and too one dimensional (using one power up to 100% of the time). Don't take this personel, I know you like Soldiers best - and I loved my Soldier playthrough, but I prefer biotics, just my personal preference.
One of the reasons I focused on the Adept class was to see if I could prove the 'Adept is weak crowd' wrong. Once I got into biotics I couldn't go back, after an hour or two spend playing another class I always need to clear one level with an Adept.

You can easily take out shields of 3-4 enemies in under 1 second of ingame time with Mattock+AR. Then again I usually go in for the kill instead of just taking out shields. Even then, its possible to KILL 2-3 guys over the course of one AR, which lasts for a little more than 1 second game time. Again its not unique to Adept, and there are conditions (like clustered shield enemies) that need to be met.

There are also conditions regarding AR, you could only take out those Collectors coz they were standing right next to each other, same thing with powers really. I watched your Collector Base vid a couple of days ago. As impressive as it is (and a good watch too), it demonstrates the issue I have with the Soldier class - it's too easy though it takes some skill to do it like you did.

For most of the game Mattock is enough, but the low ammo capacity may require u to switch to a more specialized weapon to take out some defense, like Viper or GPS. Also if you keep using Mattock without AR, you will most likely run out of ammo because of misses, less headshots and less damage per bullet. Mattock isn't sufficient for Adepts. Its not even sufficient for soldiers, you need to switch to GPS and Viper every once in a while against those tough enemies. But for most part, it will be your primary weapon.

Sure I miss shots on a regular basis, but not many. I hardly ever run out of ammo, remember that Adepts only need weapons against shields (and to a lesser extend against armor and barriers). Once defenses are down it's biotic playtime - more fun; lesser ammo! Soldiers need bullets to deliver the killing blow.

-I doubt you'd want to waste a 1.5s cooldown just to stagger an enemy. Against unprotected enemies its more useful though. On defense its a waste of cooldown time.

-Adepts have multiple skills but because of shared cooldown, you can use only one skill at once. Soldiers have one skill that can be used in every situation and thats all it needs. The ammo powers soldiers have will not interfere with the cooldown and thus is an added bonus.

Depends, without ED Adepts have nothing against shields (except weapons of course). One simple Pull or Throw will stagger enemies 1-2 s, it saved my ass many times. No waste at all since there isn't another option. I can either use it to stagger or do nothing at all.

Having multiple skills instead of one only adds to the Adept's appeal, they offer more options though it depends on the circumstances. Soldier have one super power, very effective, but still only one skill to be used over and over again.

Even I have a blast playing as a biotic. They are a lot of fun to play as. But I still think soldiers are overpowered in comparison. I'm not saying they are more fun, thats just a matter of personal preference.

Also vanguard isn't a pure biotic class, a biotic/combat class.

Good to hear some love for biotics Isn't it all about having fun? That's at least why I love the Adept. Look, I never claimed Soldiers are weak or whatever. All I tried ws to dismiss the claim that Adepts are nothing more than gimped Soldiers on Insanity. Adept can be deadly on Insanity using biotics (and guns). Soldiers are powerful, no question, too powerful if you ask me.

But in the end it all comes down to personal preference (like you said)

PS I sometimes get a bit carried away when people are (still) bashing the Adept class, I guess that doesn't happens to Soldiers a lot. But it's always nice to exchange arguments

[swn32]

- Mattocks is great against everything you mentioned and if you take into account the time needed to swiych weapons, things will be over much quicker using the Mattock alone. BTW, I don't consider YMIRs ordinary enemies, they're not the best example to use. I also said they could be killed much faster if I had equiped my Adepts with GPS (I didn't because I hate that thing). Only Vanguards can take out 2 YMIRs without cover and medkits, Soldiers can't (nor can Adepts for the record).

I dunno, I've always found using Mattock on YMIR mechs a huge ammo drain considering the limited ammo it has. Its not even faster if you can master quick refire with charged GPS. The weapon switch time is mitigated by the fact that you dont have to reload the weapons as often. I think GPS can take out the shield without having to reload and Viper can do the rest with just 1 reload, where as mattock would have to reload atleast thrice and empty more than half its ammo on just 1 YMIR mech. Also soldiers can take out YMIR mechs without cover, but you need to keep a safe distance since they dont have the shield recover feature the charge has. You can't go in as close as vanguards do.

- The Adept's powers are quite formidable. One simple little Throw can instakill a Krogan with full health for example, not bad for a 1.5 s cooldown. The Adept also excels add CC, a Pulled enemy (=death enemy) can't fight back, so even without direct damage it still increases combat effectiveness a lot (1.5 s cd also).

Soldier's CC needs are more or less met by either neural shockwave or squad cryo ammo.

If there wasn't a global cooldown system, the Adept would make the Soldier look like a fool. But I wouldn't want that because it breaks the game though the OP suggested something like this earlier.

Having a skill like AR does break the game to some extent. Its an all round overpowered ability. It really could've done pretty well even without the insane damage boost. Its not even in the description.

Where did you hear me say AR is weak? It's the most OP power around and the single reason I consider the Soldier class the worst in ME2. They are just too powerful and too one dimensional (using one power up to 100% of the time). Don't take this personel, I know you like Soldiers best - and I loved my Soldier playthrough, but I prefer biotics, just my personal preference.
One of the reasons I focused on the Adept class was to see if I could prove the 'Adept is weak crowd' wrong. Once I got into biotics I couldn't go back, after an hour or two spend playing another class I always need to clear one level with an Adept.

Thats what I've been trying to say, the soldiers are too powerful that it breaks the balance of the game. Adepts are not weak at all, but soldiers are overpowered.

There are also conditions regarding AR, you could only take out those Collectors coz they were standing right next to each other, same thing with powers really. I watched your Collector Base vid a couple of days ago. As impressive as it is (and a good watch too), it demonstrates the issue I have with the Soldier class - it's too easy though it takes some skill to do it like you did.

Two enemies is quite easy even if they are seperated. Three enemies may require them to be close so as to minimize AR time wasted while switching targets.

Sure I miss shots on a regular basis, but not many. I hardly ever run out of ammo, remember that Adepts only need weapons against shields (and to a lesser extend against armor and barriers). Once defenses are down it's biotic playtime - more fun; lesser ammo! Soldiers need bullets to deliver the killing blow.

Just like adepts have powers to deal with Mattocks ammo shortage, soldiers have other weapons. Ammo isnt really an issue with the Mattock, but you cant use it all the time for everything.

But what I'm saying is that the other weapons which soldiers have, strip defenses much more quickly. For example it would take you 10 heavy warps to down YMIR mech armor which would give a combined cooldown time of around 30-40 seconds, where as a viper could do the same thing in around 5-10 seconds. Against normal mooks both the classes are powerful, but then again which class isn't.

Having multiple skills instead of one only adds to the Adept's appeal, they offer more options though it depends on the circumstances. Soldier have one super power, very effective, but still only one skill to be used over and over again.

Thats primarily the reason i play with Adept, variety in gameplay. I play soldier when I wanna get that rambo feel. I pretty much like every class other for some reason or the other (except sentinel cause i find their class power really unappealing, just another shield power on steroids).

Good to hear some love for biotics Isn't it all about having fun? That's at least why I love the Adept. Look, I never claimed Soldiers are weak or whatever. All I tried ws to dismiss the claim that Adepts are nothing more than gimped Soldiers on Insanity. Adept can be deadly on Insanity using biotics (and guns). Soldiers are powerful, no question, too powerful if you ask me.

But in the end it all comes down to personal preference (like you said)

PS I sometimes get a bit carried away when people are (still) bashing the Adept class, I guess that doesn't happens to Soldiers a lot. But it's always nice to exchange arguments

Glad we reached a conclusion 

[cruc1al]

@ Bozorgmehr



I read your reply and appreciate the points u made, agreeing with some and disagreeing with others. I just can't be bothered to reply in detail

[swk3000]

godlike13 wrote...

cruc1al wrote...

Uh, no. SMG are good, sure. They're not vindicators, mattocks, shotguns or vipers, however.

Um actually, against Shields they are. Ur severely underestimating SMGs here. Against Shields, they're right up there with vindicators, mattocks, shotguns or vipers.

cruc1al wrote...

As a soldier, you'll be shooting at shielded enemies with disruptor ammo all the time. As an adept, you're better off letting teammates with Overload deal with shields (of course, soldiers benefit from this too, but it's not really a requirement). Have you tried playing an adept solo mode on a shield heavy mission, compared to soldier? Have you then tried playing an adept solo mode on a barrier heavy mission, and seen what a huge difference it makes what type of defenses you're facing?

And as a Adept you'll be shooting at shielded enemies with ur SMG, hopefully bringing Zaeed along so u too can utilize disruptor ammo, while throwing out powers, and warping any armor u happen to see. Of course there's a difference between Adepts and Soldiers, but neither is necessarily lesser compared to the other.

cruc1al wrote...

To me, it sounds like you haven't even tried using Viper, Mattock, Widow or even Mantis and Vindicator.

Actually i have, that's why im saying ur underestimating SMGs when it comes to shields. Against shields the Locust is actually going to do comparable damage to the Viper, and Vindicator, and better damage than the Widow, or even Mantis. All at a continues fire rate, pinpoint accuracy, and reliable ammo. The only gun that i'd say clear out beats it is the Mattock, but that gun is in a league of its own.

I can't believe this. Are you even taking damage into account? No, wait, scratch that. Of course you're not. You just compared the Locust to the Widow in terms of damage output. Never mind that the Locust does 25 damage a shot, and the Widow does 368.3 a shot. That's over 12 times the damage. The Locust takes 15 shots to do what the Widow does in one.

SMG's are useful weapons, and have similar damage multipliers, but they generally have much lower damage numbers. Only the Locust is comparable to an Assault Rifle, and only because it's damage better than the Avenger and the Geth Pulse Rifle. The Shuriken and Tempest don't even compare.

[The Spamming Troll]

cruc1al wrote...

@ Bozorgmehr

I read your reply and
appreciate the points u made, agreeing with some and disagreeing with
others. I just can't be bothered to reply in detail

cruc1al, you are ****ing awesome.

Permutation wrote...

Overall, I think the devs did a wonderful job. I'm just sharing my opinion at this point.

Now, THIS is a singularity:

If that was a fully upgraded singularity, minus the gold hue and being a projectile, we'd be on to something I think.

you are absolutely right here. ive often wondered why my abilities arent my heavy weapons. i mean they put this effort into making heavy weapons when most people dont even use them or even want to see them on their shepards backs. i wonder if they toned down abilities to compensate for weapons. becasue abilities should be nothing short of what i saw in that video. abilities in ME2 are its biggest selling point, so why make a weapoin that does what an ability should do?

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 09 octobre 2010 - 12:32 .

[godlike13]

swk3000 wrote...

I can't believe this. Are you even taking damage into account? No, wait, scratch that. Of course you're not. You just compared the Locust to the Widow in terms of damage output. Never mind that the Locust does 25 damage a shot, and the Widow does 368.3 a shot. That's over 12 times the damage. The Locust takes 15 shots to do what the Widow does in one.

Really, i just compared the Locust to the Widow in terms of damage output. I did not know that. Yes the Widow does 368.3, which against shields is 11.8 shots for the locast, not including upgrades, upgrades that increase shield damage even further by 50%. Given the Locust can continuously shoot those 11.8 shots in about the same time the Widow takes to fire off a shot then have to reload, im definitely taking damage into account. Just not single shot damage.

swk3000 wrote...

SMG's are useful weapons, and have similar damage multipliers, but they generally have much lower damage numbers. Only the Locust is comparable to an Assault Rifle, and only because it's damage better than the Avenger and the Geth Pulse Rifle. The Shuriken and Tempest don't even compare.

That's just not true, even though SMG have lower per single bullet damage numbers, their increased rate of fire make their overall damage numbers quite comparable to an Assault Rifle, especially against shields where their multiplier will potentially be higher. And given Tempest's fire rate and shots per clip it will make it even more comparable against shield. Just suffers from a lack of accuracy <_<

Modifié par godlike13, 09 octobre 2010 - 03:22 .