343 réponses à ce sujet

[M8DMAN]

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

GodWood wrote...

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Anderson's no longer councilor

 he's still councilor in my game... 

No he's not, he quits his job in Retribution.

as councilor or as captain? maybe that means he's captain anderson again in mass effect 3, of a bigger and better star ship where as commander sheperd can still operate as commanding officer/spectre who can command pointed navigations (aswell as take command or orders from anderson for certain missions).

If bioware pull's the I quit LOL card in ME3 I will be mad as hell! There's a reason I picked Anderson for the job.
 
Anderson owes me, I busted my hump to get him the councilor gig and this is how he repays me?!

Modifié par M8DMAN, 30 septembre 2010 - 06:43 .

[GodWood]

He was a **** councilor anyway.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Cerberus is technically against the Cerberuses of other, currently more dominant races that percieve humanity as a threat... but it's easy for that to turn from a reason to an excuse for a total power play by TIM.

Also, nuclear weapons against Japan was definitely a RENEGADE option... because they didn't feel it was worth sacrificing American soldiers when they could kill innocent non-american civilians to make a point.

The Japanese military would've fought until they all died... which would've been at a great cost to the military numbers of the USA.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 30 septembre 2010 - 06:44 .

[Ieldra]

People, you're going seriously off-topic now with the WWII history.

@Killjoy Cutter:
You'd prefer the galaxy to die before compromising your ideological stance. From even the most moderate consequentialist viewpoint, this comes close to being the ultimate evil. In my book, someone who acted out what you propose would be the biggest villain in the galaxy.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 septembre 2010 - 06:50 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Now you're just being a hipster-cynic.  Take off those 80s shades and study American history with objective eyes.

(I'll get some examples when I have time to make them solid, I'm posting while waiting for reports to run.)

Yeah, while studying the history of the American democracy since the end of WW2 it is recommended to have a steel helmet on your head. 'Cause it's a hiiighly explosive subject.

Not to mention the Human experimentation in the United States.

And anyone involved in experiments on unwitting, unwilling, or deceived human subjects should have been prosecuted and spent the rest of their lives in prison.

And not one did.

[Asheer_Khan]

Once i wondered how possible is convincing someone to enter establishment full of people wearing filled with explosives backpack and blow itself out... after seeing threads like this i stopped wondering.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Keep in mind that the comparison between Cerberus in ME and the actions of the Allies in WW2 start out with a fatal flaw. The actions taken by the Allies in WW2 were taken against enemy nations, whereas the acts that make Cerberus so repulsive have been directed towards their own people -- while claiming to protect all of humanity, most of the terrible things that Cerberus has done, they have done to their fellow humans.



If Cerberus were metaphorically "dropping atomic bombs" on Reapers, then we'd have a valid comparison.

[jbblue05]

GodWood wrote...

He was a **** councilor anyway.

 But he's my friend and believes me and gave me back my spectre status unlike Udina which means Anderson is the better Councilor

*sarcasm* 

[Killjoy Cutter]

The messed-up thing is, if Cerberus wasn't so determined to always do things in the most repugnant way possible, Anderson might have actually been an ally for them, as he was one of the few who believed in the Reaper threat. It's sad -- the things they did right were largely disconnected from the largely idiocy they engaged in. Overlord, Teltin, the creeper and Rachni experiments, killing marines and Kohaku, etc, none of those things helped them build the SR2, bring Shepherd back from the dead, etc.

[Zulu_DFA]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Keep in mind that the comparison between Cerberus in ME and the actions of the Allies in WW2 start out with a fatal flaw. The actions taken by the Allies in WW2 were taken against enemy nations, whereas the acts that make Cerberus so repulsive have been directed towards their own people -- while claiming to protect all of humanity, most of the terrible things that Cerberus has done, they have done to their fellow humans.

If Cerberus were metaphorically "dropping atomic bombs" on Reapers, then we'd have a valid comparison.

You keep defending that killing of hundreds of thousands of women and children is appropriate if they belong to an enemy nation, but death and suffering inflicted upon a few dozen people is repulsive even though it's been made with the goal of net gain for the whole of Mankind in the long run.

The worst (most massive) thing Cerberus ever did were those Eezo "accidents", but, they (a) did it long before they "went rogue", (2) were not the first to do it, (3) not nearly as bad (massive) as Hiroshima & Nagasaki "renegade option", not to mention the genophage and other "questionable" Mass Effect stuff performed for the greater good by the cool aliens.

But since then it has been offset, and Admiral Anderson knew it practically first hand, by the action against the Collectors, making TIM next to a saint compared to the rest of galactic citizenry. And Anderson goes for taking him out, knowing that any (and that means all) of his Alliance collegues can be in bed with TIM, which makes TIM's elimination totally pointless, since in a short time he'd be replaced by an equally or more "corrupt" individual, leading an equally or more "morally bankrupt" shadow ops outfit. With the Reapers still there...

So, calling Anderson a traitor is actually a compliment his way, as the only alternative to that is his being a complete idiot!

[eldav]

I have always hated Capt: Anderson, that man is a political nightmare, he has worked against shepard back in ME1 when he brought up dreams as proof against saren.

He has no political understanding, hence he talks **** about Udina whenever he can.

I am serious.....that man is a idiot who could betray the Alliance unintensionaly.

Now i have always seen Udina as a very inteligent man that have only human interest in mind.



Remember folks, a cow ****s on you in order to keep you warm, but a wolf cleans you and eat you up.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Well, again, to be a traitor, he'd have to have committed treason.



Treason has a very narrow definition, despite the way it's been thrown around so freely over the last decade or so.



Nothing Anderson did qualifies as treason.





As for the "cool aliens", meh. I never agreed with the Rachni genocide or anything that was done to the Krogan.

[eldav]

.....Liberal

[Xilizhra]

I don't know how closely the two organizations are tied together, but I support a purge of Cerberus wholeheartedly.

[GodWood]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
As for the "cool aliens", meh. I never agreed with the Rachni genocide or anything that was done to the Krogan.

Your one of those people who saved the genophage cure, aren't you?

[Zulu_DFA]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Well, again, to be a traitor, he'd have to have committed treason.

Treason has a very narrow definition, despite the way it's been thrown around so freely over the last decade or so.

To be a traitor you need to betray somebody, like an organization you used to be a trusted member of, then became disloyal to before officially resigning from. That's the quite broad definition betrayal (which in the case of government officials and military men is called treason) has and it's been thrown around since the times when legal systems were unheard of.

So Anderson definitely qualifies, even if the Alliance will be unable/unwilling to prosecute him.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 30 septembre 2010 - 09:00 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Well, again, to be a traitor, he'd have to have committed treason.

Treason has a very narrow definition, despite the way it's been thrown around so freely over the last decade or so.

To be a traitor you need to betray somebody, like an organizaztion that you used to be a trusted member of, then became disloyal to before officially resigning from. That's the quite broad definition betrayal (which in the case of government officials and military men is called treason) has and it's been thrown around since the times when legal systems were unheard of.

So Anderson definitely qualifies, even if the Alliance will be unable/unwilling to prosecute him.

Tell me, in the history of the United States, how many people have been charged with, let alone convicted of, the Crime of Treason? 

And given that Anderson was never a member of Cerberus, he can't be a traitor against them regardless of one's definition.

At least in the United States, Treason is the only crime specifically defined in the Constitution, and for good reason, given the abuse of the charge by earlier governments. 


"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."

[Killjoy Cutter]

GodWood wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
As for the "cool aliens", meh. I never agreed with the Rachni genocide or anything that was done to the Krogan.

Your one of those people who saved the genophage cure, aren't you?

Every.  Damn.  Time.

If nothing else, it could be the key to getting their help against the Reapers later.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 30 septembre 2010 - 09:07 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

From Wiki:
One of American history's most notorious traitors is Benedict Arnold, whose name is considered synonymous with the definition of traitor due to his collaboration with the British during the War of Independence. However, this occurred before the Constitution was written. Since the Constitution came into effect, there have been fewer than 40 federal prosecutions for treason and even fewer convictions. Several men were convicted of treason in connection with the 1794 Whiskey Rebellion but were pardoned by President George Washington. The most famous treason trial, that of Aaron Burr in 1807 (See Burr conspiracy), resulted in acquittal. Politically motivated attempts to convict opponents of the Jeffersonian Embargo Acts and the Fugitive Slave Law of 1850 all failed. After the American Civil War, no person involved with the Confederate States of America was tried for treason, though a number of leading Confederates (including Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee) were indicted. Those who had been indicted received a blanket amnesty issued by President Andrew Johnson as he left office in 1869. The Cold War saw frequent associations between treason and support for (or insufficient hostility toward) Communist-backed causes. The most memorable of these came from Senator Joseph McCarthy, who characterized the Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Harry Truman administrations as "twenty years of treason." McCarthy also investigated various government agencies for Soviet spy rings; however, he acted as a political fact-finder rather than criminal prosecutor. The Cold War period saw few prosecutions for treason. On October 11, 2006, a federal grand jury issued the first indictment for treason against the United States since 1952, charging Adam Yahiye Gadahn for videos in which he appeared as a spokesman for al-Qaeda and threatened attacks on American soil.[10]

[fongiel24]

How did a debate over whether or not Anderson betrayed the Alliance become an argument over whether Cerberus is evil? Cerberus does nasty things. There's no denying that. But suggesting that what Cerberus does is comparable to the Reapers wiping out all sapient life in the galaxy is laughable. This war Shepard and Cerberus are fighting isn't about combating "evil", this is a war for survival. Anderson might hate what Cerberus does and what they stand for, but the fact remains that Cerberus is one of the few organizations (only organization?) in the galaxy helping Shepard fight the Reapers. Considering that Anderson is also aware that the Reapers are sitting right on the galaxy's doorstep, this was not the time for him to play Don Quixote with the Cerberus windmill just to save one scumbag (Grayson) from Cerberus' clutches.

If Anderson wants to fight Cerberus, there's plenty of time to do that after the Reapers are defeated. The fact that he chose to fight Cerberus by going to the turians, thus potentially creating serious rifts between Council allies only makes his mistake even more ridiculous. While Shepard is trying to unite the races of the galaxy so as to put up an organized defence against the Reapers, Anderson is going behind his back and sowing suspicion and hostility between two of the most important factions. As of 2185, the First Contact War only ended 28 years earlier. Do you think humans, even non-racist humans, are going to be okay with the turians running roughshod over the Alliance? At the very least Anderson should have gone to the salarians or asari for aid, races that humanity doesn't have such a difficult past with. This wasn't a job for the turians. The turian way of doing it was to kick down doors and shoot people. This was a job for the STG, who could quietly pick up Cerberus' operatives without making it look like a preemptive strike by a military rival of humanity intended to decapitate Alliance leadership.

Modifié par fongiel24, 30 septembre 2010 - 09:14 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Well, again, to be a traitor, he'd have to have committed treason.

Treason has a very narrow definition, despite the way it's been thrown around so freely over the last decade or so.

To be a traitor you need to betray somebody, like an organizaztion that you used to be a trusted member of, then became disloyal to before officially resigning from. That's the quite broad definition betrayal (which in the case of government officials and military men is called treason) has and it's been thrown around since the times when legal systems were unheard of.

So Anderson definitely qualifies, even if the Alliance will be unable/unwilling to prosecute him.

Tell me, in the history of the United States, how many people have been charged with, let alone convicted of, the Crime of Treason? 

I don't have a slightest idea of that.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
And given that Anderson was never a member of Cerberus, he can't be a traitor against them regardless of one's definition.

Anderson betrayed the Systems Alliance.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
At least in the United States, Treason is the only crime specifically defined in the Constitution, and for good reason, given the abuse of the charge by earlier governments. 

The Systems Alliance is not the United States, and it's never said in the whole ME series if it even has such thing as constitution. As to the good reason for treason being specifically defined in the United States Constitution, right you are. It is very good. It is that the United States were founded by a bunch of traitors to the British crown. Of course, history vindicated them (including in the form of the US Constitution), and they became heroes, even as recognized by Britain herself.But in our case, Admiral Anderson has yet to undergo such transformation, which as I've said may only come if the Systems Alliance goes down in flames.

[GodWood]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
As for the "cool aliens", meh. I never agreed with the Rachni genocide or anything that was done to the Krogan.

Your one of those people who saved the genophage cure, aren't you?

Every.  Damn.  Time.
If nothing else, it could be the key to getting their help against the Reapers later.

So let me get this straight..

You won't give the Collector Base to Cerberus/ally with them (despite them being a useful ally against the Reapers)  because you think Cerberus would take over the galaxy and that'd be a worse fate then being wiped out by the Reapers.
Yet you'll save the genophage cure as it'd help defeat the Reapers despite the fact that it'd most likely create a repeat of the krogan rebellions. (and thats probably before the Reapers even show up)

Is that about right?

Modifié par GodWood, 30 septembre 2010 - 09:26 .

[Barquiel]

GodWood wrote...

Yet you'll save the genophage cure as it'd help defeat the Reapers despite the fact that it'd most likely create a repeat of the krogan rebellions. (and thats probably before the Reapers even show up)

Apparently Krogans can reproduce very rapidly, but now you are exaggerating...