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[wizardryforever]

Anderson saw this as a golden opportunity to help rid the galaxy of Cerberus, potentially for good (since he hoped to get the Illusive Man in the process).  However, the Alliance had been heavily infiltrated with Cerberus agents and sympathizers.  Because of this, there was a good chance that going through the Alliance would be completely counterproductive, as these agents would tip off the Illusive Man while the supporters bogged down the process with red tape.  The only alternative was to go to an outside party, one who also had a vested interest in bringing down Cerberus.  That party was the Turian government.  Optimistically, one could hope that this cooperation with the Turians to bring down a terrorist organization (regardless of your personal beliefs, everyone in game regards them as terrorists) would bring the two governments closer together.  Pessimistically, one could believe that getting alien governments involved in internal Alliance matters would cause tension.  Either way, Anderson is not a traitor for realizing which way the wind was blowing.

Are Cerberus the only ones doing something about the Reapers?  In all of the main dialogue in ME2, that would seem to be the case, but listen to certain news reports.  They seem to mention behind-the-scenes investigations into certain mysterious circumstances by the STG and the Asari commandos.  I don't think Cerberus is as necessary to the galaxy's survival as some of you would claim, especially since they've already done pretty much everything already within their power to do.  Turn it over to people with the resources to do something about it.

[Arijharn]

Casuist wrote...
...that and the fact that neither you nor anyone else has presented another viable option for Anderson removing Cerberus other the actions he took.

Alright, for convenience sakes;

1) Surely there's some people in Alliance who hasn't been 'infiltrated' by Cerberus, including N7 teams or SA special forces teams (because he is, after all, a senior member of the Alliance).
2) Failing that there's always merc groups
3) Using the media to fabricate reports to cause suspicion that are of a serious nature, but not to do with Cerberus activities. You don't even need to make it iron clad enough to reach public trial, just enough to discredit operations.

Anything to do with interfering with Alliance 'sovereignty' from an independent nation (such as the Turian Hierarchy) is bad. It would even be a bad decision if Anderson went to the Salarian Union or the Asari, but because of the lingering animosity between humanity and the Turian's, it's doubly bad.

Perception is increasingly important, by demonstrating that the Alliance is not capable of fixing it's own mistakes, you make the species as a whole look not qualified, especially for a race that only recently came to the galactic forefront.
4) 

[fongiel24]

Anderson has terrible timing. I agree that Cerberus is evil and eventually somebody will have to deal with them, but is it really a good time for housecleaning in the Alliance when the Reapers are on the march? Having the turians conduct the housecleaning for the Alliance isn't likely to be welcomed by the latter either. Humanity is sovereign, not some client state like the volus. Having other people march into your house to clean up your crap without even bothering to inform you of it first is humiliating. Wars start over much less. Look at Austria-Hungary's attempts to meddle in Serbian internal affairs regarding the Black Hand in 1914. That didn't exactly end well, did it?

[Casuist]

Shandepared wrote...

...and why would I? I don't want Cerberus removed.

Yes. there's the rub. If you want a pro-human terrorist terrorist group infiltrating one of four arms of the galactic government, then indeed you might choose Cerberus over Anderson. Do NOT then, pretend that your position is purely rational. A human-dominated vs. cosmopolitan future is the plain dichotomy the mass effect storyline is making us decide between. Both have arguments in favor. Neither is irrational. One involves a few more moral compromises. Enjoy. 

[Casuist]

Arijharn wrote...

Alright, for convenience sakes;

1) Surely there's some people in Alliance who hasn't been 'infiltrated' by Cerberus, including N7 teams or SA special forces teams (because he is, after all, a senior member of the Alliance).

Surely, except that Anderson is as well-informed as anyone to make that judgment, and decided that it was not tenable.

2) Failing that there's always merc groups

You want Anderson to hire a group that has no loyalty to anything but its paycheck, with substantially less resources than the Turians, with almost no chance of secrecy, to hit a covert group that has more resources to offer? How is paying (with what?) a merc group to abduct people NOT going to cause a diplomatic incident you are claiming to be avoiding? If you want Anderson to fail, then this certainly works...

3) Using the media to fabricate reports to cause suspicion that are of a serious nature, but not to do with Cerberus activities. You don't even need to make it iron clad enough to reach public trial, just enough to discredit operations.

...leaving Cerberus with no real harm done, as personnel are transferred, resources shifted and the terrorist organization moves before you take away anything they have. Again, if you like being infiltrated by a terrorist orgainization- this is a good option. This is NOT a viable alternative to Anderson's plan.

Anything to do with interfering with Alliance 'sovereignty' from an independent nation (such as the Turian Hierarchy) is bad. It would even be a bad decision if Anderson went to the Salarian Union or the Asari, but because of the lingering animosity between humanity and the Turian's, it's doubly bad.

NOW you're making some sense. The salarians in particular would make some sense, and the main argument to the contrary would be that the Turians are better prepared for the type of military operation required. Anderson used connections he had available.

As to violating sovereignty- there aren't any good options available. I'm still waiting for y'all to suggest something that is appreciably less bad (if you want to say he should've made overtures to the salarians/asari instead, I'm with that.

Perception is increasingly important, by demonstrating that the Alliance is not capable of fixing it's own mistakes, you make the species as a whole look not qualified, especially for a race that only recently came to the galactic forefront.

...and, unfortunately, the Alliance is not capable of fixing this present mistake on its own. No citadel species can claim to not have similar marks on their record (look, for example, at the humiliation felt by the Turians concerning Saren)...

Modifié par Casuist, 01 octobre 2010 - 07:22 .

[Casuist]

Shandepared wrote...

If Anderson had taken the time to analyze the data he should have been able to determine at least a few safe Alliance officers to take the intel to. 

Irrational assumption number 1. How would examining the data make any Alliance entity more reliable? Grayson wasn't providing any evidence to exonerate anyone and wasn't ever in position to catch everyone. As stated above, Anderson is far better prepared than we to evaluate the viability of contacting elements within the alliance, and he discarded that option. 

He should have informed Udina

Irrational assumption number 2. Why is Udina trustworthy with this? The man who, with his political gamesmanship, would have doomed the galaxy two years ago?

Putting everything out the open would force the Alliance to act. The Cerberus agents' cover would be blown and they could be arrested, by the Systems Alliance. In this case Cerberus wouldn't be hurt too badly, but neither would the Alliance.

End result: Cerberus barely hurt at all, and the opportunity to deal with corrupt elements within the Alliance  and damage a terrorist organization has been blown

Anderson could have waited on this for a long time... or just acted on a small part of it.

Which, since the information would then become out of date, again results in an opportunity being missed.

Say arrested only one or two Cerberus agents and interrogate them.

...which leads Cerberus to realize there's a data leak. If they Identify Grayson as the source (reasonable, given the circumstances), then again, opportunity blown.

If only small bits and pieces were used over a long enough length of time Cerberus would have a hard time figuring out where the intelligence leak was, allowing the Alliance to more gradually work out who the other Cerberus agents were.

There's so many rogue Cerberus agents caught sending information from a terminal and wiping local files prior to capture to choose from.

Hurting Cerberus doesn't just hurt Cerberus, especially if some outside party is doing it. Cerberus' deep infiltration of the Alliance means that those undercover Cerberus agents don't just know Cerberus secrets, but Alliance secrets as well.

...and leaving Cerberus agents in place hurts the alliance... unless you happen to be on Cerberus' side. 

Of-course there is also the question of whether or not it is wise to take Cerberus down right now while they are busy working to stop the Reapers.

They're also busy kidnapping alliance children, murdering political figures, attacking Quarian vessels, slaughtering Alliance civilians and marines.... etc. If you choose to think that Cerberus will have a net positive effect that is absolutely necessary to defeat the reapers, that's your prerogative. But, again, this is not the only rational conclusion.

Modifié par Casuist, 01 octobre 2010 - 07:21 .

[fongiel24]

Casuist wrote...

As to violating sovereignty- there aren't any good options available. I'm still waiting for y'all to suggest something that is appreciably less bad (if you want to say he should've made overtures to the salarians/asari instead, I'm with that.

I already presented the salarian/asari option in an earlier post, but only as a "less bad" alternative rather than a "good" alternative. There aren't any good alternatives here because Anderson f'd up. There's no other way of putting it. He embarassed the Alliance, he got a bunch of turians killed, his operation failed to do anything except give Cerberus a flesh wound and release a Reaper hybrid on the galaxy, and now he no longer has a job since he chose to resign his post.

In ME2 he promised to fight the "good fight" and run interference for Shepard with Alliance brass and the Council. How's he supposed to do that now? Best case scenario he's forced to sit everything out, forced into early retirement because nobody in the Alliance wants him on their staff anymore. At worst he's sitting in a holding cell awaiting sentencing for conspiring with the turians behind the Alliance's back.

Regardless of whether the Alliance brass thinks what he did was "right", the fact remains that he went over the heads of his superiors and conducted a rogue operation with the turians and the Alliance will now have to clean up the mess. They can't let him get away with this. Chain-of-command exists in both the military and the government for a reason. If one cowboy with good intentions thinks he can get away with skirting it, what's stopping copycats from trying to do the same?

[Casuist]

fongiel24 wrote...
his operation failed to do anything except give Cerberus a flesh wound

Factually untrue.

and release a Reaper hybrid on the galaxy

...for which Cerberus and TIM are infinitely more culpable. Anderson, moreover, is primarily responsible for ending said threat. 

and now he no longer has a job since he chose to resign his post. 

....and is now a free agent working to help Shepard full time. Paragon or Renegade, ME3 will have to involve making the universe at large aware of the threat, and doing so does not require Anderson to be councilor/assistant.

[Arijharn]

Casuist wrote...
Surely, except that Anderson is as well-informed as anyone to make that judgment, and decided that it was not tenable.

Possibly, possibly not.

Casuist wrote...
You want Anderson to hire a group that has no loyalty to anything but its paycheck, with substantially less resources than the Turians, with almost no chance of secrecy, to hit a covert group that has more resources to offer? How is paying (with what?) a merc group to abduct people NOT going to cause a diplomatic incident you are claiming to be avoiding? If you want Anderson to fail, then this certainly works...

Exactly, by hiring merc groups you do not directly infringe upon a country's sovereign capability to defend and police itself like you are by sending in the Turian's, and you also are much more likely to keep such details a secret than the Turian's, due to the fact that as long as the merc groups get paid, they don't care.
I view any action performed by well funded and well equipped merc groups to be less visible than Turian interests hitting human interests at least. If you wanted to be really unscrupulous you can also then hit the merc groups afterwards with Alliance forces to keep things very placebo on the public front.

Do you disagree with me just for the sake of disagreeing? I don't think you're thinking critically here, just acting on first impulses.

Causist...
...leaving Cerberus with no real harm done, as personnel are transferred, resources shifted and the terrorist organization moves before you take away anything they have. Again, if you like being infiltrated by a terrorist orgainization- this is a good option. This is NOT a viable alternative to Anderson's plan.

You're striking at the supposed heads of the hydra (or those not easily removed anyway) in a less visible fashion than a Turian witch-hunt. Media will also cause a bit of a panic with would be investors as well. The added advantage of course is that a 'media trial' can be performed in tandem with other strategies. If they're heads of the Alliance military-industrial complex that secretly supports Cerberus you can bet that the Alliance wouldn't want that publicised even if they were desperate to exorcise themselves just in case of market shareholder drops (whose effects are very likely to be felt a lot more than just in how many frigates the System's Alliance can afford this procurement cycle).
By striking at these 'heads' you're very strictly telling those would be Cerberus supporters to, well, stop supporting Cerberus thereby hitting the organization possibly the hardest, in their hip pocket nerve.

Honestly, I'm surprised you even needed me to explain this, I thought it was somewhat obvious.

Casuist wrote...
NOW you're making some sense. The salarians in particular would make some sense, and the main argument to the contrary would be that the Turians are better prepared for the type of military operation required. Anderson used connections he had available.

As to violating sovereignty- there aren't any good options available. I'm still waiting for y'all to suggest something that is appreciably less bad (if you want to say he should've made overtures to the salarians/asari instead, I'm with that.

Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. You have to discredit Cerberus, you can't just smash it apart with a sledgehammer and expect results because that's just plain stupid, it's a 'shadow' organization, it's supposed to shrink when exposed to the light and it just regathers elsewhere.

Causist wrote...
...and, unfortunately, the Alliance is not capable of fixing this present mistake on its own. No citadel species can claim to not have similar marks on their record (look, for example, at the humiliation felt by the Turians concerning Saren..

Be that as it may, it still isn't the 'right' time nor has it been settled by a mutually beneficial relationship to the Alliance. Unless there's a hidden future hook in DLC or ME3, it almost as if Drew has forsaken a shrewd and believeable story (which I feel the ME universe largely fits) for the sake of making a good action novel. It seems rather childish in a way.

[Casuist]

Arijharn wrote...

Casuist wrote...
Surely, except that Anderson is as well-informed as anyone to make that judgment, and decided that it was not tenable.

Possibly, possibly not.

...no evidence to the contrary.

Exactly, by hiring merc groups you do not directly infringe upon a country's sovereign capability to defend and police itself like you are by sending in the Turian's, and you also are much more likely to keep such details a secret than the Turian's, due to the fact that as long as the merc groups get paid, they don't care.
I view any action performed by well funded and well equipped merc groups to be less visible than Turian interests hitting human interests at least. If you wanted to be really unscrupulous you can also then hit the merc groups afterwards with Alliance forces to keep things very placebo on the public front.

Do you disagree with me just for the sake of disagreeing? I don't think you're thinking critically here, just acting on first impulses.

I'm saying that your merc idea doesn't work as a military option, doesn't fulfill the requirements of secrecy, and is beyond Anderson's financial means. An one of those factors not working means on the first or fiftieth impulse: the idea doesn't work.

Likewise your media exposure idea doesn't actually accomplish the goals Anderson rightfully had. Cerberus shifts resources, gets some negative press equivalent to what they are getting already, and the corruption story hurts the Alliance almost as much as it would have as he did it.

[fongiel24]

Casuist wrote...

fongiel24 wrote...
his operation failed to do anything except give Cerberus a flesh wound

Factually untrue.

Anderson's operation didn't finish off Cerberus like it was intended to. It was stated repeatedly in the book that unless TIM was captured, the operation would be a wash. TIM got away and retains considerable financial holdings. TIM's conclusion is that the most serious blow to Cerberus was the loss of trained personnel. The personnel will take time to replace, but TIM seems pretty confident that Cerberus will rise again.

...for which Cerberus and TIM are infinitely more culpable. Anderson,
moreover, is primarily responsible for ending said threat.

TIM and Cerberus had Grayson locked down. The situation went pear-shaped only after the turians kicked down the door and let Grayson go due to Anderson sending them after Cerberus with incomplete intelligence. Anderson was also only able to take down Grayson AFTER he infiltrated the Ascension Program, murdered at least two Alliance security officers and three scientists, and risked the safety of every student enrolled at the school.

....and is now a free agent working to help Shepard full time. Paragon
or Renegade, ME3 will have to involve making the universe at large aware
of the threat, and doing so does not require Anderson to be
councilor/assistant.

Anderson is worthless to Shepard without his Alliance/Council post. It's not like he has extensive underworld contacts with which he can provide Shepard with information, technology, or weapons. What exactly can he do to help Shepard with all his formal links to the Alliance severed?

[Casuist]

No, it has not been blown. Putting everything out in the open will kick out all the corrupt personnel revealed by Grayson's data. The public will be fully aware of Cerberus infiltration and so will the rest of the Council.

The Council already knows what. They do not know who... and anyone important is going to be gone if you tip them off before the fact.

 
removing them needs to be a delicate process or else the Alliance is going to wound itself very deeply.

It is massively injured already.

Casuist wrote...

...and leaving Cerberus agents in place hurts the alliance...

How?

...unsurprisingly... if you think that having Cerberus in place in the Alliance working against Alliance goals is a good thing, then you're welcome to that situation. It is, however, a position dependent upon the persepctive that Cerberus' ideas for the future hold merit.

When Cerberus are the only ones preparing to fight off the horde of murderous machines coming to kill us all

This again. No. They are not. As I've said in the past: if you think a cosmopoliton citadel-species acting together solution is the best way to fight the reapers, Cerberus is quite likely to (and has in the past) worked AGAINST that goal.

If you love this human supremacy power trip (and I know you do) ENJOY.

[Arijharn]

Casuist wrote...
I'm saying that your merc idea doesn't work as a military option, doesn't fulfill the requirements of secrecy, and is beyond Anderson's financial means. An one of those factors not working means on the first or fiftieth impulse: the idea doesn't work.

First; you do realise there has been evidence in the past that merc groups can be paid by 'favours,' also what statistical likelihood did Aresh persuade the Blood Pack to go to Pragia because I find it highly unlikely that Aresh paid the Blood Pack in advance.

Anderson had all the intel on where Cerberus facilities are before he sent the details to the Turian councillor, ergo he could send these details to the merc groups. Also, because merc groups are not a sovereign state in itself, the Alliance doesn't suffer as much blowback (other than: "SHOCK MERC GROUPS HAVE ATTACKED") for not being able to adequately defend itself and will even gain sympathetic support from within the Alliance when they retaliate.

How is a Turian group any more 'secret' than a merc group? The Turian's aren't exactly renowned for their subtlety. 

The merc idea isn't covert ops in the classical sense, what they do have is a diversionary element. Able  to shift blame and can be 'cleaned up' far more efficiently if needed than the Turian's, and maintains the semblence of the balance of power to boot.

Causist wrote...
Likewise your media exposure idea doesn't actually accomplish the goals Anderson rightfully had. Cerberus shifts resources, gets some negative press equivalent to what they are getting already, and the corruption story hurts the Alliance almost as much as it would have as he did it.

It will hurt Cerberus in the long term far more effectively than he did. All I can say that if I was the Illusive Man and Anderson did what he did, I'd be confident in my abilities to 'pick up the pieces' with far more enthusiasm than if Anderson did what I suggest, because like I said, perception is everything.

[Casuist]

fongiel24 wrote...

TIM and Cerberus had Grayson locked down. The situation went pear-shaped only after the turians kicked down the door and let Grayson go due to Anderson sending them after Cerberus with incomplete intelligence. Anderson was also only able to take down Grayson AFTER he infiltrated the Ascension Program, murdered at least two Alliance security officers and three scientists, and risked the safety of every student enrolled at the school.

I'm sorry, I missed the point where Cerberus put safeguards in place to ensure Grayson's escape. I also missed the part where they surrendered and mentioned they had an extraordinarily dangerous lab experiment on their hands. I did NOT miss the part where TIM readily admitted to himself that he chose saving his own skin over ensuring that Grayson did not escape. Their psychotic experiment: their responsibility. Blaming the typhoon for letting the dinosaurs loose is misplacing the blame.

Anderson is worthless to Shepard without his Alliance/Council post.

The end of retribution makes it pretty clear he is NOT without means. Not being a huge fan of the novel, I'm amazed I'm put into the position of defending it, but one has to work with the facts of the universe as they are presented.

It's not like he has extensive underworld contacts with which he can provide Shepard with information, technology, or weapons. What exactly can he do to help Shepard with all his formal links to the Alliance severed?

...see page 351. Or, for that matter, TIM, who rather frankly states that Anderson being driven into this position may be, vis a vis the Reapers, a positive result of these events.

[Casuist]

Arijharn wrote...

First; you do realise there has been evidence in the past that merc groups can be paid by 'favours,' also what statistical likelihood did Aresh persuade the Blood Pack to go to Pragia because I find it highly unlikely that Aresh paid the Blood Pack in advance.

Aresh assembles 20-odd vorcha and 3 Krogan and would have been killed for his trouble given that Pragia has nothing to offer. As soon as he manages to assemble a force equivalent to the strike team in question, let me know.

How is a Turian group any more 'secret' than a merc group? The Turian's aren't exactly renowned for their subtlety. 

How easy do you think it is for a xenophobic human group to infiltrate another species' military organization reknowned for duty and discipline? How easy is it to infiltrate the Blue Suns?

"Hi, is this the place to go after Archangel"

"Huh, good thing you don't really look like a freelancer."

[fongiel24]

Casuist wrote...

I'm sorry, I missed the point where Cerberus put safeguards in place to ensure Grayson's escape. I also missed the part where they surrendered and mentioned they had an extraordinarily dangerous lab experiment on their hands. I did NOT miss the part where TIM readily admitted to himself that he chose saving his own skin over ensuring that Grayson did not escape. Their psychotic experiment: their responsibility. Blaming the typhoon for letting the dinosaurs loose is misplacing the blame.

How do you know there weren't any safeuards put in place? The turians completely shot up the place. Any safeguards would have been designed to prevent Grayson from escaping under under his own power, not to stop a turian commando unit from springing him from the outside.

And I missed the part where the turians offered anyone the opportunity to surrender. Why would Cerberus personnel reveal anything to the turians anyway? The turians are the enemy and it would have seemed pretty safe for the Cerberus personnel to assume that as professionals, the turians would exercise caution in searching a research facility. Nobody could have foreseen that the turians sent to liberate Grayson would be idiots.

As for TIM choosing to save himself, look at it from his perspective. He sees Cerberus as humanity's last line of defence and if he goes down with the ship, Cerberus is done. Considering Cerberus also likely holds more current intelligence on the Reapers than anyone else in the galaxy, sacrificing himself and allowing Cerberus to be destroyed doesn't seem like a wise course of action.

The end of retribution makes it pretty clear he is NOT without means. Not being a huge fan of the novel, I'm amazed I'm put into the position of defending it, but one has to work with the facts of the universe as they are presented.

Anderson claims to have "people" that he can turn to, but how can his resources even begin to compare to the resources available to Cerberus? His value to Shepard was as an ally within the upper ranks of Alliance and Council leadership. How much help could his "contacts" be? He's one man with limited resources working contacts part-time, not a professional information broker like Liara. 

He has Grayson's body now and presumably his plans will be to have Kahlee and some of his "people" study it, but do you really think they'll be able to even come close to accomplishing what Cerberus would have been able to do, given that Cerberus had an entire team of scientists and vast amounts of money invested in their project?

...see page 351. Or, for that matter, TIM, who rather frankly states
that Anderson being driven into this position may be, vis a vis the
Reapers, a positive result of these events.

From page 353, "Finally someone other than Cerberus was going to start doing something about the Reapers." The language of the exerpt in question suggests that TIM wasn't fully aware of Anderson's efforts against the Reapers before the events of Retribution. TIM assumed that before Retribution Anderson was just another blind bureaucrat.

Modifié par fongiel24, 01 octobre 2010 - 08:34 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Casuist wrote...

The end of retribution makes it pretty clear he is NOT without means. Not being a huge fan of the novel, I'm amazed I'm put into the position of defending it, but one has to work with the facts of the universe as they are presented.

Yeah, that's interesting who are those mysterious Anderson's friends "outside the Alliance", ain't it? It also rises some more questions about his Alliance loyalty. How many groups oustide of the Alliance he is in bed with, and for how long? Is he simply disgruntled over the rampant lies and corruption in the Alliance, or is there maybe something more to it? I kind of wonder where Grayson's body winds up in the end...

Never mind, let's keep it simple. Anderson trusts nobody in the Alliance, so he just takes all the load of responsibility for shaping the Alliance's bright sans-Cerberus future on himself... Oh scratch that, he shares it with the Turians who in all honesty couldn't forget some ass-kicking they received from the Alliance a few decades back...

And he does it why? Because some Kahlee Sanders asked him to help rescue some Paul Grayson, one single person, that has even nobody to blame but his own self for the mess he's into. That's certainly a way to go. Create a casus belli for the sake of an unfortunate miscreant. That's truly paragon. Every soul deserves to be saved even if the price is a whole galaxy of bodies.

And again, if the Alliance is so Cerberus-ridden, that Anderson (a highly esteemed war hero) has nobody - not one - not a bloody single man - who he can vouch for, then this "cleaning the house" rhetoric is simply not applicable. It's about burning the house to the ground, and even if some people in this here thread are incapable of grasping that, Anderson himself must have clearly understood what he was doing and what it's called. A betrayal. "To hell with the Alliance!" - that almost as much as he literally says in the book.

[Arijharn]

All right, one last attempt to persuade you why you're wrong...

Casuist wrote...

Aresh assembles 20-odd vorcha and 3 Krogan and would have been killed for his trouble given that Pragia has nothing to offer. As soon as he manages to assemble a force equivalent to the strike team in question, let me know.

Why would you think he couldn't considering these Cerberus cells are active ergo much richer spoils.

How easy do you think it is for a xenophobic human group to infiltrate another species' military organization reknowned for duty and discipline? How easy is it to infiltrate the Blue Suns?

"Hi, is this the place to go after Archangel"

"Huh, good thing you don't really look like a freelancer."

Why would they need to 'infiltrate' at all? Just go in gunz blazin' and they'd still accomplish what he set out to do in the first place which seems to be as you put it, a vast amount of personnel and infrastructure damage to Cerberus to the extent of shutting it down.

I'm convinced now that you're trolling because you seem to be arguing all over the place. Even a blind man could see that what Anderson did wasn't kosher for the Alliance and even if he did suspect that he couldn't trust anyone there are alternatives than using the Turian's which in the case of any political rammifications would be enormous.

[Zulu_DFA]

fongiel24 wrote...

From page 353, "Finally someone other than Cerberus was going to start doing something about the Reapers." The language of the exerpt in question suggests that TIM wasn't fully aware of Anderson's efforts against the Reapers before the events of Retribution. TIM assumed that before Retribution Anderson was just another blind bureaucrat.

If anything, TIM could know through Shepard that Anderson belives in the Reapers' reality but could do nothing becase he was in no position.

What I'm getting from this exceprt (together with his ending converstion with Aria) is that he doesn't care at all which or how many groups will become aware of the Reapers, and maybe has evenput his Human dominance agenda on hold, because nothing else but the Reapers matter now. Thus, it's absolutely irrelevant where Anderson's loyalties are. In any case, all the damage he could deal to Cerberus, Anderson has already dealt, so he's no longer a threat. And since he was never a Cerberus member, revenge is not of any priorty, especially as long as he may be useful.

Besides, knowing Anderson, if I were TIM, I'd settle for the for the most cruel revenge plan possible - making Anderson unwittingly work for Cerberus, and advance their goals somehow, and not necessarily in the body horror way as it was with Grayson. Which TIM may already be doing. As some have already noticed in this very thread, after damage control and emergency procedures are finished there's nothing left to do for Cerberus but to capitalize on the aftermath of Anderson's failed escapade.

[fongiel24]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And he does it why? Because some Kahlee Sanders asked him to help rescue some Paul Grayson, one single person, that has even nobody to blame but his own self for the mess he's into. That's certainly a way to go. Create a casus belli for the sake of an unfortunate miscreant. That's truly paragon. Every soul deserves to be saved even if the price is a whole galaxy of bodies.

Anybody else find it ironic that Anderson did what he did because he was looking out for Kahlee Sanders, but in the process his actions actually painted a big bulls-eye on her back? Before Retribution, Cerberus didn't even care about Sanders. Due to Anderson's actions, Cerberus was forced to hunt down Sanders to use as bait for Grayson. I know TIM supposedly isn't into revenge without reason, but he does appear somewhat vindictive. I wouldn't be surprised if Kahlee ends up on some Cerberus hitlist post-Retribution.

Modifié par fongiel24, 01 octobre 2010 - 09:09 .

[Zulu_DFA]

fongiel24 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And he does it why? Because some Kahlee Sanders asked him to help rescue some Paul Grayson, one single person, that has even nobody to blame but his own self for the mess he's into. That's certainly a way to go. Create a casus belli for the sake of an unfortunate miscreant. That's truly paragon. Every soul deserves to be saved even if the price is a whole galaxy of bodies.

Anybody else find it ironic that Anderson did what he did because he was looking out for Kahlee Sanders, but in the process his actions actually painted a big bulls-eye on her back? Before Retribution, Cerberus didn't even care about Sanders. Due to Anderson's actions, Cerberus was forced to hunt down Sanders to use as bait for Grayson. I know TIM supposedly isn't into revenge without reason, but he does appear somewhat vindictive. I wouldn't be surprised if Kahlee ends up on some Cerberus hitlist post-Retribution.

That's Paul Grayson you're talking about in the first place. Anderson just seems to inherit his idiot ball.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

If Grayson had that data-package prepped to send off with one button hit, that was already a hostile action against Cerberus! What if it was not Kai Leng, that raided his appartment, but some Omega gang? Grayson would've still thought that it's Cerberus coming after him and sent the data! This "Cerburus triggured it dumsulves" argument is totally retarded. And if Grayson cared so much for Kahlee's safety, why it had to be her that he sent his data? Now he is dead and she is a potential target! Before that Cerberus didn't care if she existed. Good job, Paul!

To make it more clear, imagine: You're a Mafia hitman, and betrayed the God Father. Now the God Father is after you, but you've got a cache of cocaine in a suitcase with his monogrammed handkerchief and fingerprints in it. You are afraid that the God Father will harm your sister, who was in the same car when you stole the cocaine. So you call the God Father and tell him, that if so much as one hair falls off your little sister's head, the FBI gets the suitcase. But when the Mafia guys finally come after you, you send the suitcase... to you sister!

[Killjoy Cutter]

Shandepared wrote...

Any thoughts on this wikipedia entry or did you just feel like sharing it with us?

Just putting some context into the discussion regarding treason and traitors.

EDIT:  And given Pacifen's post on the next page from that one, I'll bow out after this. 

My overall opinion:  Anderson cannot commit treason against Cerberus, as they are not a government, and he is not a member.  He cannot betray Cerberus, as he was never a member of Cerberus.  Acting against Cerberus is not a betrayal of the Alliance, as the two are not one and the same.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 01 octobre 2010 - 01:28 .