343 réponses à ce sujet

[Whatever42]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

I haven't read the book but can someone answer me this question: did Anderson's war on Cerberus meant to help make the galaxy safe from the Reapers?

He actually did it because he could and he wanted to free his love interest's friend. He almost screwed the entire galaxy by doing it, though.

I don't want to read this book. I still like Anderson from ME1. This would probably make me want to shoot him.

[Cjrdrifter]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

I haven't read the book but can someone answer me this question: did Anderson's war on Cerberus meant to help make the galaxy safe from the Reapers? It's clear that Cerberus is bent on protecting humanity from the Reapers. Did crippling them further that goal?

finally What anderson did was undermine the safety of the human race if he wanted to go after cerebus he would have been better served if he went after TIM directly (replace & restore)

[NKKKK]

Shepard's going to do that.

[jbblue05]

Anderson's actions could probably trigger a war with the Alliance and the Turians

[Casuist]

... no, leaving the human-centric terrorist organization in a position of influence is vastly more likely to bring war between species than removing it.

[Casuist]

Shandepared wrote...

Casuist wrote...

... no, leaving the human-centric terrorist organization in a position of influence is vastly more likely to bring war between species than removing it.

How so? Cerberus has been around for 25 years and hasn't started a war nor tried to. Why would they start one now?

Note wording carefully : "more likely."

TIM is not shy about his motivations, and, in the end, he and his organization want humans on top. This is not conducive to peace... even if you consider political assassinations, ship sabotage and a major attack on the quarians to be particularly peaceful.

[Casuist]

Shandepared wrote...

Arresting Alliance personnel isn't conductive to peace either.

Referring to Cerberus agents planted within the Alliance as Alliance personnel is dubious at the very least, and, given that the two organizations are in fact at odds with other: flatly untrue.

All Anderson did was undermine any political good will between the Systems Alliance and the Turian Hierarchy.

How do you figure? The Turins had a right to go after criminal elements, and there is no evidence that they damaged any alliance infrastructure or personnel except those whom the alliance would not want spying on them.

He also crippled the only people in the galaxy fighting to save it.

As of the end of Retribution, this comment is hyperbolic.

One imagines that during ME3 it will, by necessity, become completely inaccurate, and that such was necessary whether or not Anderson instigated the attack. 

[Arijharn]

Casuist wrote...
One imagines that during ME3 it will, by necessity, become completely inaccurate, and that such was necessary whether or not Anderson instigated the attack. 

Who really cares about future events like this though? The key point being that Cerberus is the only ones willing to act now. Anderson knows that the Alliance isn't being proactive about the Reapers unlike Cerberus, and he knows that Cerberus has been supporting his friend.

If anything, wouldn't it make more sense to seek to dismantle Cerberus after they save the galaxy from galactic extinction? Anderson says that he 'knows how the world works' yet all he has really shown is that he responds to Kahlee's beck and call... and there were other methods to dealing with Cerberus if he thought they were a threat enough, without resorting to another sovereign nation... lest of all the Turian's because you can bet that any military force they send will perhaps be clouded somewhat by lasting stigma from the First Contact War.

[NKKKK]

This topic doesn't matter guys, what matters is Shepard. It's always been Shepard.

[jbblue05]

Casuist wrote...

... no, leaving the human-centric terrorist organization in a position of influence is vastly more likely to bring war between species than removing it.

That's so unlikely

The turians arrest top alliance officials
The Alliance is pissed off demands the Alliance officials get released
Turians deny request believing its in the Galaxy's best interests.
Alliance goes to the Council their request for the release of the Alliance officials
Council denies them becuase the Alliance officials are considered working for terrorists.
Alliance takes matters in their own hands and rescues their operatives. by force
This might lead to casualties. and possible information leaks
Tensions grow between the Turians and the Alliance

The Alliance isn't going to believe the turians are just investigating the alliance offficials on their connection with Cerberus.
The Alliance  is going to believe the Turians are looking for an excuse to discover Alliance's secretds and classified Alliance information.

Don't you see this is just a recipe for disaster

Modifié par jbblue05, 30 septembre 2010 - 06:13 .

[Casuist]

Shandepared wrote...
Anderson should have taken his info to trusted people within the Alliance.

Like who? Keeping in mind that the safe assumption is that there are (many) agents you don't know about?

Anderson made the Alliance look stupid, that hurts relations.

...and keeping people who have an irrational hatred of Turians and are surreptitiously working against a cosmopolitan galaxy: help relations. I see.

Casuist wrote...

As of the end of Retribution, this comment is hyperbolic.

How so?

Shepard, Liara, Anderson, Rachni (assuming one saved the queen), Geth, any number of additional entitites who are more than capable of understanding that there is a threat (STG).

The "nowhere else to turn" situation is contrived by TIM. There is ample evidence of the threat, and it is readily possible/necessary to convince other elements of the threat. If TIM were devoted to making the galaxy aware of the threat, rather than leveraging his knowledge, they WOULD know.

One suspects this point cannot be repeated enough...

-You have enough evidence to convince the citadel species of the risk.
-You HAVE to have more allies to succeed.
-You could have them already.
-Relying on Cerberus, at the moment, is a choice, but not a necessity. 

[Casuist]

jbblue05 wrote...

Casuist wrote...

... no, leaving the human-centric terrorist organization in a position of influence is vastly more likely to bring war between species than removing it.

That's so unlikely

The turians arrest top alliance officials
The Alliance is pissed off demands the Alliance officials get released
Turians deny request believing its in the Galaxy's best interests.
Alliance goes to the Council their request for the release of the Alliance officials
Council denies them becuase the Alliance officials are considered working for terrorists.
Alliance takes matters in their own hands and rescues their operatives. by force
This might lead to casualties. and possible information leaks
Tensions grow between the Turians and the Alliance

The Alliance isn't going to believe the turians are just investigating the alliance offficials on their connection with Cerberus.
The Alliance  is going to believe the Turians are looking for an excuse to fdiscover Alliance's secretds and classified Alliance information.

Don't you see this is just a recipe for disaster

The turians and Anderson have incriminating evidence for everyone targeted. So long as due process is followed- I repeat that the hostile agents-out option is better than hostile agents-in.

[jbblue05]

Casuist wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Casuist wrote...

... no, leaving the human-centric terrorist organization in a position of influence is vastly more likely to bring war between species than removing it.

That's so unlikely

The turians arrest top alliance officials
The Alliance is pissed off demands the Alliance officials get released
Turians deny request believing its in the Galaxy's best interests.
Alliance goes to the Council their request for the release of the Alliance officials
Council denies them becuase the Alliance officials are considered working for terrorists.
Alliance takes matters in their own hands and rescues their operatives. by force
This might lead to casualties. and possible information leaks
Tensions grow between the Turians and the Alliance

The Alliance isn't going to believe the turians are just investigating the alliance offficials on their connection with Cerberus.
The Alliance  is going to believe the Turians are looking for an excuse to fdiscover Alliance's secretds and classified Alliance information.

Don't you see this is just a recipe for disaster

The turians and Anderson have incriminating evidence for everyone targeted. So long as due process is followed- I repeat that the hostile agents-out option is better than hostile agents-in.

Are you really that naive or have on paragon goggles
Did you even read retribution, if you did your idea of due process isn't happening 
Are you refusing to see the political backlash of what the turians and Anderson are doing.
Udina is trying to get Anderson charged for treason.  The Alliance doesn't support Anderson they try to distance themselves from  him

[Zulu_DFA]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Because even if you can't slap high treason on him legally or morally, Anderson is still political traitor to the Alliance. Compare him to Kasumi's boyfriend. That guy wasn't such an honored officer in the Alliance as Anderson, but still chose to die rather than divulge its dirty secrets.

Exposing the wrong-doing of your government is not treason.

No?

Maybe in your country...

But in the Systems Alliance it causes death "of natural causes".

That doesn't make it treason, that makes it something that someone will kill you for. 

It's not treason unless you're convicted of treason.  Treason has a legal definition, in law, and unless you're convicted of treason, you're not a traitor. 

Oh my, have you even read the what you quoted?

All right, I repeat. Despite the fact, that legally and in some moral systems Anderson may remain clean, he is still a traitor to the political entity called the Systems Alliance. You need to wake up and understand, in the world of big politics where Anderson virtually exists, "fighting the good fight" is almost always the worst (& morally too) thing to do. And, when it comes to big politics, all things "legal" have bearing only limited to PR.

[Casuist]

jbblue05 wrote...

Are you really that naive or have on paragon goggles
Did you even read retribution, if you did your idea of due process isn't happening 
Are you refusing to see the political backlash of what the turians and Anderson are doing.
Udina is trying to get Anderson charged for treason.  The Alliance doesn't support Anderson they try to distance themselves from  him

I'm sorry... i missed where cerberus surrendered and mentioned they had an extraordinarily dangerous lab experiment on their hands.

I'm not refusing to see political backlash,,, as I've been plainly admitting it in each post.... you, however, are pretending that having alliance personnel secretly belong to a corrupt, evil, terrorist organization is a good thing, and that when faced with evidence of such they will simply ignore it.

[Zulu_DFA]

Casuist wrote...

Anderson made the Alliance look stupid, that hurts relations.

...and keeping people who have an irrational hatred of Turians and are surreptitiously working against a cosmopolitan galaxy: help relations. I see.

If Anderson was so concerned about people who harm the cosmopolitan Galaxy by being xenophobic, he could have commited himself to shutting down Turian bastards like Joram Talid & such. And leave the xenophobic Humans to the STG.

[jbblue05]

Casuist wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Are you really that naive or have on paragon goggles
Did you even read retribution, if you did your idea of due process isn't happening 
Are you refusing to see the political backlash of what the turians and Anderson are doing.
Udina is trying to get Anderson charged for treason.  The Alliance doesn't support Anderson they try to distance themselves from  him

I'm sorry... i missed where cerberus surrendered and mentioned they had an extraordinarily dangerous lab experiment on their hands.

I'm not refusing to see political backlash,,, as I've been plainly admitting it in each post.... you, however, are pretending that having alliance personnel secretly belong to a corrupt, evil, terrorist organization is a good thing, and that when faced with evidence of such they will simply ignore it.

Taking the righteous moral stand is  the dumbest thing you can do. The Alliance doesn't want the turians sticking their fingers in their pie.
Anderson did what he thought was right and its biting him in the ass and is causing more problems then it is solving

[fongiel24]

I think the worst part about what Anderson did is that it didn't really have any lasting effect other than to set loose a Reaper-human hybrid monster on the galaxy. Cerberus was hurt badly, but these aren't mortal wounds we're talking about. The turians took down a lot of Cerberus cells and bases, but not all of them and at the end of the book, TIM seems fairly confident he'll be able to get Cerberus up and running before too long again. The turians themselves even state that unless they can snatch TIM the whole operation is a wash. As for the reason why TIM had to rely on Aria for muscle, it's not that he had no muscle left, it's that he didn't want to risk activating any of his own forces while the turians were still looking for them and before he had plugged the leaks.



Regarding how the Alliance will react to Anderson's actions, the turians' asault on and arrest of so many Alliance personnel could be a clear casus belli. While it's true that it was turian members of C-Sec rather than the turian military that was storming Alliance facilities to arrest Alliance personnel, I doubt Alliance property falls under their jurisdiction. If the Citadel works anything like the real world, Alliance facilities like their embassies and other offices would be considered Alliance territory and thus would fall under Alliance jurisdiction, not C-Sec. If I were the turians, their ambassador gets fired and every turian involved in the operation gets served with a gag order.

[Zulu_DFA]

This^.

[Ieldra]

Here's my take on it:

No matter how justified Anderson thought his actions were, there will be a big political backlash. As a comparison: imagine that your country's representative at the UN were responsible for allowing a neighbouring superpower military operations in your country, including the arrest and possible shooting of high-ranking officials and politicians, including but not limited to those of an extremist political movement.

I don't think the strength of the "political sh*tstorm" resulting from this could be overestimated. I expect distrust of the Council and the turians among humans to increase dramatically, and there might be a patriotic backlash driving people into the arms of Terra Firma in droves. Cerberus might even come out of it stronger than before. Those political parties standing for co-operation with the Council and most notably the turians will be weakened.

Anderson's actions can rightly be seen as a betrayal. If sympathy for Cerberus-compatible goals among humans is so widespread that you have to get support from aliens to act against them, he *did* act against a significant part of his constituency, not just against a small but influential group of criminals.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 septembre 2010 - 08:16 .

[Arijharn]

Especially since Cerberus isn't that well known to begin with.

[Zulu_DFA]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Here's my take on it:

No matter how justified Anderson thought his actions were, there will be a big political backlash. As a comparison: imagine that your country's representative at the UN were responsible for allowing a neighbouring superpower military operations in your country, including the arrest and possible shooting of high-ranking officials and politicians, including but not limited to those of an extremist political movement.

I don't think the strength of the "political sh*tstorm" resulting from this could be overestimated. I expect distrust of the Council and the turians among humans to increase dramatically, and there might be a patriotic backlash driving people into the arms of Terra Firma in droves. Cerberus might even come out of it stronger than before. Those political parties standing for co-operation with the Council and most notably the turians will be weakened.

Anderson's actions can rightly be seen as a betrayal. If sympathy for Cerberus-compatible goals among humans is so widespread that you have to get support from aliens to act against them, he *did* act against a significant part of his constituency, not just against a small but influential group of criminals.

And this^ too.

Actually, why wouldn't Cerberus and Terra Firma's ideals be popular among Human colonists?
The most "average Joe" character in ME is Mess Sergeant Gardner, who washes his hands ... most of the time. And he is damn proud to be part of Cerberus. On the other hand, Kelly, a good & kinky college girl doesn't feel like xenophobia comes with being in Cerberus at all. Maybe they know nothing of the "evil experiments", but that's not the point here. And, on the second thought, may be they would prefer not to know if that's what it takes.

And Turians arresting Human officials and businessmen right & left is the best birthday present for Charles Saracino. I can see the slogans for his next political campaign: "Turian Revanche!" ... "It's Them or Us!" ... "You May Be Next!"  ... "[Turian C-Sec officer:] It Sucks to Be Human!"