59 réponses à ce sujet

[Siduri]

So, I recently heard Wynne's story about how her baby was taken away from her -- and as a mom, this hits me at a really primal level. I'm not sure I believe that anything is more evil than forcibly taking children from their mothers. It's a violation of everything that makes us human -- in fact, everything that makes us mammals. Suffice it to say I think it's Evil with a capital E.

Now I want to play a game aimed at destroying the Chantry as much as possible. Screw the darkspawn: they'll just kill you. Or make you a broodmother, but then you get LOTS of children, yay! (Yes, that's sarcasm.) But anyway, assume I've decided that the Chantry is the greatest evil in Ferelden. Which set of in-game choices do you think would ultimately weaken the Chantry most?

I'm pretty sure that the PC should side with the mages, and choose "freeing the Circle" as their post-game boon. But I find myself dithering on the question of whether or not to destroy the Urn. On the one hand, it's a powerful religious artifact; but on the other, the Chantry didn't actually *want* it found. They opposed Brother Genetivi's research, after all. And there are some elements to the Urn quest that point to truths opposed to the Chantry's teachings. (For one thing, the ash wraiths, which Genetivi indicates go pretty far back in Andrastean lore--creating undead guardians seems to support the "powerful mage" explanation for Andraste's story, rather than the "bride of the Maker" explanation.) Spreading the knowledge of the Urn might ultimately weaken the Chantry's hold on the public imagination.

Also, should I help or oppose Brother Burkel in Orzammar? Spreading the Chant is a bad thing by my lights, but causing the Chantry to over-extend itself by instigating an Exalted March against the dwarves -- *that's* the kind of thing that might bring down the Chantry once and for all, especially if the dwarves are shored up through other in-game choices.

Let me say right up front that I'm not really looking for an "Is the Chantry good or evil" discussion. I think there's plenty of perfectly good in-game reasons to come down on either side of that question, and will happily agree-to-disagree with anybody who is pro-Chantry. My question, instead, is: IF you wanted to destroy the Chantry, what choices would you make?

[Riona45]

Siduri wrote...

Also, should I help or oppose Brother Burkel in Orzammar? Spreading the Chant is a bad thing by my lights, but causing the Chantry to over-extend itself by instigating an Exalted March against the dwarves -- *that's* the kind of thing that might bring down the Chantry once and for all, especially if the dwarves are shored up through other in-game choices.

The only problem with the latter option (possibly bringing on an EM), in my opinion, is that you'd be acting on knowledge that your character wouldn't have.  Unless you want to indulge in the fantasy that your PC can see into the future, refusing to help Brother Burkel would be the more in-character decision.

PS:  Keep in mind that you can only ask for the "free the mages" boon if the PC is herself a mage.

Modifié par Riona45, 29 septembre 2010 - 03:37 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Trying to fight religion with open war is dangerous.



It dosent simply "fall" like a nation will to armies, it rigidifies under pressure and turns to face a threat. The Crusades, the Catholic/Protestant conflicts both were terrifying wars that saw people butcher each other over ideas in a book. While Organized religion is powerful and can be corrupt it is not outright evil.



Not all Templars hate mages, Wynne tells how one Templar who took her to the tower was very kind to her, others you see like Otto or Bryant are good people who honestly try to help. The chantry provides the basic social services in Thedas that states dont. Its not an EVIL organization, bad things happen in its name, but good deeds are also done under it banner as well.



Religion however is not eternal and does slowly crumble against modernization, seculariztion, the rise of states and middle classes. Wars cant remove religion, nor can force it has the opposite effect. No matter how hard people have tried in the past to "break" religion it survives it and becomes stronger. When times change the Chantry will crumble against forces far beyond its control.



Trying to use war or force or subversion on something is dangerous. When Religion is added on top of that, it can lead to something far worse than what you can imagine. For example in some provinces in Germany upwards of 40% of males were killed in conflict, and thousands of villages were obliterated. All of this over a war about Religion.

[Riona45]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Trying to fight religion with open war is dangerous. 

I could be wrong but I think you missed the OP's point.  She's asking about what in-game choices she could make to weaken the Chantry.  I can't think of any in-game choices you can make that involve open war.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I'd almost say the Chantry did Wynne's child a favor.

Now, to address the topic. Several things I can think of:

- Save the mages.

- Deal with Lyrium smuggling (between the smuggler in Orzammar and Godwin in the Tower).

- Pick Bhelen and send Dagna to the Circle. A new circle can be formed in Orzammar and it's better to have a strong king instead of a complete failure.

- Don't help Burkel. While it might be tempting to do so, Orzammar wouldn't be that much of a challenge. Bide your time and wait. Let mages find out that Orzammar can be a safe haven for them.

- Do Mage Collective quests (perhaps you can ignore those that seek out maleficarum, or do them as it will reduce the need for Templars).

- Don't do Chantry quests.

- About the Urn. If you destroy it, nobody knows and thus no one cares. Revealing the urn might be a double edged sword however. It will either strengthen the Chantry (and I disagree that it didn't want them found, it simply didn't believe they exist), or weaken it as the presence of lyrium and ash wraiths can cast doubt.

- Side with the Dalish.

- This is important. If you are a blood mage, put Anora on the throne and you as her chancellor. RP as if you'd dominate her mind via blood magic, allowing you to influence her decisions. Since Alistair is a Templar (can resist mind domination), he must either die or be exiled, preferably die (do you have the guts to do it?).

- Do the Dark Ritual.

Of course at the end of the day, all this will do little to such a powerful institution. But it's a start, if you are so adamant about weakening it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 septembre 2010 - 03:45 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Riona45 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Trying to fight religion with open war is dangerous. 

I could be wrong but I think you missed the OP's point.  She's asking about what in-game choices she could make to weaken the Chantry.  I can't think of any in-game choices you can make that involve open war.

Mostly I was just saying that religion is not something that you can "break" It just dosent work.

I dont really care about the Chantry its there but I am more concerned about Darkspawn.
The Qun and the Chant are ideas, the Darkspawn are monsters. 

[Tigress M]

Interesting topic.  I'd say (being very liberal with possible future outcomes as you'll see):

*Intimidate the RM in Lothering - you might start a trend of people standing up to the Chantry
*Side with the mages - and yes, free the circle as your boon after the blight
*Have mercy on the blood mage in the tower - I think I read just recently that you can even agree to help/join her after you're done with the tower (as if you can recruit her) but the actual "recruitment" never happens
*Don't seek out the RM's help in Redcliffe - this might sew seeds of dissent among the knights
*Free Jowan and try to let him remain free (never have gotten the Arl to do anything but turn him over to the tower so I'm not sure if that's possible)
*Don't do any Chantry board quests - if they aren't getting done, perhaps people will stop going to the Chantry for help with their problems
*Don't help Brother Burkel - while his dream does fail, the word has been spread and may be picked up again by some of his converts down the road
*Do all of the Mage's collective quests
*Harden Leliana - perhaps you can get her to change her views of the Chantry, thereby keeping her from spreading tales of their "wonderfulness"

[Giggles_Manically]

Unhardened Leliana is Pro-Maker.

Her dialouge and banter indicate someone who is anti-doctrine though.

[Riona45]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I'd almost say the Chantry did Wynne's child a favor.

I take it you aren't a huge fan of Wynne...?

- This is important. If you are a blood mage, put Anora on the throne and you as her chancellor. RP as if you'd dominate her mind via blood magic, allowing you to influence her decisions. Since Alistair is a Templar (can resist mind domination), he must either die or be exiled, preferably die (do you have the guts to do it?).

Well, that depends--you could be Alistair's friend (or lover, for that matter) and it can be assumed that as king, he'll readily take your advice because he trusts you and isn't too tough for the Warden to influence (especially if he's unhardened).  No blood magic is even required.  I'm not really supporting Alistair so much as saying putting him on the throne could work to your advantage just as well as Anora, if not better. 

[Zjarcal]

I hate the Chantry as well, with a passion actually. I approve of a playthrough solely meant to weaken them!



What Riona points out is true though. Refusing to help Brother Burkel is the proper in character choice. Unless your PC is devious and cunning enough to realize that spreading the chant in a place like Orzammar, would lead to trouble. Hmm, I actually can see that as a viable RP motivation.



As for the Urn, I admit that even as a chantry hater I could never defile it, mostly out of respect for the remains of Andraste. That being said, I'm also of the opinion that revealing the ashes location isn't exactly what the chantry wants. My preferred outcome in that situation is to leave the ashes alone, allow Genetivi to organize the pilgrim expedition, but leave the High Dragon alive. This will lead to the pilgrims getting all excited about the Urn but when they confront the High Dragon they won't be able to get past it. The High Dragon (according to the epilogue slide) will destroy the location, leading to the ashes never being found again. I believe that this outcome could result in a lot of negative publicity for the chantry.

[Zjarcal]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Unhardened Leliana is Pro-Maker.
Her dialouge and banter indicate someone who is anti-doctrine though.

Yeah, she actually is opposed to many of the chantry's views.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Riona45 wrote...
Well, that depends--you could be Alistair's friend (or lover, for that matter) and it can be assumed that as king, he'll readily take your advice because he trusts you and isn't too tough for the Warden to influence (especially if he's unhardened).  No blood magic is even required.  I'm not really supporting Alistair so much as saying putting him on the throne could work to your advantage just as well as Anora, if not better. 

Except Alistair doesn't hate the Chantry and as weak as he is, I still doubt you'll be able to influence him to go against everything he was raised with. He finds blood magic deplorable for instance and that will not change.

The optimal condition is to have him dead and Anora on the throne, being completely vulnerable to mind domination.

Now if her PC is not a blood mage, then I'd agree that having Alistair unhardened on the throne to be better.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 septembre 2010 - 03:57 .

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I'd almost say the Chantry did Wynne's child a favor. 

Heh, I hadn't thought of it that way. I'm still opposed to it as I believe that no child should ever be taken away from their parents, but yeah, being raised by Wynne isn't exactly something I would like.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I'd almost say the Chantry did Wynne's child a favor. 

Heh, I hadn't thought of it that way. I'm still opposed to it as I believe that no child should ever be taken away from their parents, but yeah, being raised by Wynne isn't exactly something I would like.

I was being sarcastic.

[Siduri]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I'd almost say the Chantry did Wynne's child a favor. 

Heh, I hadn't thought of it that way. I'm still opposed to it as I believe that no child should ever be taken away from their parents, but yeah, being raised by Wynne isn't exactly something I would like.

Maybe she wouldn't be constantly trying to act like your mom if her real baby hadn't been stolen from her. Just a thought.

And thanks for the ideas, everyone. Lots of good thoughts here.

[Zjarcal]

Siduri wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I'd almost say the Chantry did Wynne's child a favor. 

Heh, I hadn't thought of it that way. I'm still opposed to it as I believe that no child should ever be taken away from their parents, but yeah, being raised by Wynne isn't exactly something I would like.

Maybe she wouldn't be constantly trying to act like your mom if her real baby hadn't been stolen from her. Just a thought.

And thanks for the ideas, everyone. Lots of good thoughts here.

Eh, I sympathize with the woman for having her child taken away. I still don't like her one bit, but I do sympathize.

@KoP:

I know you were. Still...

Modifié par Zjarcal, 29 septembre 2010 - 04:07 .

[Raiil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Riona45 wrote...
Well, that depends--you could be Alistair's friend (or lover, for that matter) and it can be assumed that as king, he'll readily take your advice because he trusts you and isn't too tough for the Warden to influence (especially if he's unhardened).  No blood magic is even required.  I'm not really supporting Alistair so much as saying putting him on the throne could work to your advantage just as well as Anora, if not better. 

Except Alistair doesn't hate the Chantry and as weak as he is, I still doubt you'll be able to influence him to go against everything he was raised with. He finds blood magic deplorable for instance and that will not change.

The optimal condition is to have him dead and Anora on the throne, being completely vulnerable to mind domination.

Now if her PC is not a blood mage, then I'd agree that having Alistair unhardened on the throne to be better.

While I agree that Alistair doesn't hate the Chantry, he's not particularly fond of them, either. He openly states that he's not particularly religious, didn't want to be a templar and is glad as hell Duncan got him out of there.  And he's more flexible then most people seem to think he is; he doesn't say a word about the Crow missions, for example, or doing the bartender missions. Unless it's something he's personally stuck on- in this case, Loghain- he may disagree but he tends not to be overly forceful. As for his thoughts on blood mages, I find it difficult to believe that the average Ferelden- or Theodosian, for that matter- doesn't share his feelings.


I highly doubt that you'd be able to get either monarch to truly bend on the Chantry issue, and unless you think a blood mage never needs to sleep and  can watch Anora 24 hours a day, the odds are that the blood control would only last for so long. Someone would eventually notice that something is up. Anora has never been anti-Chantry that we know of thus far, and all it takes is one templar in plain clothes to saddle up and say cleanse area.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Valentia X wrote...
I highly doubt that you'd be able to get either monarch to truly bend on the Chantry issue, and unless you think a blood mage never needs to sleep and  can watch Anora 24 hours a day, the odds are that the blood control would only last for so long. Someone would eventually notice that something is up. Anora has never been anti-Chantry that we know of thus far, and all it takes is one templar in plain clothes to saddle up and say cleanse area.

Well of course if the blood mage is stupid enough to make Anora radically anti-Chantry, then naturally someone will notice. It has to be subtle.

As for mind domination. Blood magic is feared for being able to influence the mind of kings and clerics. So I doubt the blood mage sleeping would remove the threat entirely. Besides, when the blood mage sleeps, Anora can be made to sleep too. Problem solved.

Of course the whole "anti-chantry" playthrough at the end of the day won't do any significant damage and will be mostly inconsequential in the larger scheme of things. Only exception maybe the DR.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 septembre 2010 - 04:25 .

[Siduri]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Of course the whole "anti-chantry" playthrough at the end of the day won't do any significant damage and will be mostly inconsequential in the larger scheme of things. Only exception maybe the DR.

Oh my goodness, that's a good point. I've always been staunchly anti-DR and now I may have to reconsider.

After all, if there's any character who'd get onboard for fighting the Chantry, it's Morrigan. Well, unless it's Sten.

[Raiil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Valentia X wrote...
I highly doubt that you'd be able to get either monarch to truly bend on the Chantry issue, and unless you think a blood mage never needs to sleep and  can watch Anora 24 hours a day, the odds are that the blood control would only last for so long. Someone would eventually notice that something is up. Anora has never been anti-Chantry that we know of thus far, and all it takes is one templar in plain clothes to saddle up and say cleanse area.

Well of course if the blood mage is stupid enough to make Anora radically anti-Chantry, then naturally someone will notice. It has to be subtle.

As for mind domination. Blood magic is feared for being able to influence the mind of kings and clerics. So I doubt the blood mage sleeping would remove the threat entirely. Besides, when the blood mage sleeps, Anora can be made to sleep too. Problem solved.

Of course the whole "anti-chantry" playthrough at the end of the day won't do any significant damage and will be mostly inconsequential in the larger scheme of things. Only exception maybe the DR.

True enough on subtly versus radically anti-Chantry. And the Ferelden blood mage would have a slightly easier job of it, I'd wager, compared to an Orlesian or one from the Anderfels.

Anora can be made to sleep, and I would hope someone 'intelligent' enough to gain control of Anora (or stop the Blight, for that matter) would do so, I was more commenting on the loss of control. Being asleep makes all parties vunerable.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Valentia X wrote...
True enough on subtly versus radically anti-Chantry. And the Ferelden blood mage would have a slightly easier job of it, I'd wager, compared to an Orlesian or one from the Anderfels.

Especially if said blood mage is chancellor. No one would question his / her presence around Anora as much.

Valentia X wrote...
Anora can be made to sleep, and I would hope someone 'intelligent' enough to gain control of Anora (or stop the Blight, for that matter) would do so, I was more commenting on the loss of control. Being asleep makes all parties vunerable.

I don't know how mind domination works. If the only form of mind domination is blood control (as in-game), then blood magic is almost over-hyped. Blood control only lasts for a very short duration, so why is it peole fear that blood mages can influence the minds of kings?
So either there is another form of mind control, that can *influence* a mind rather than completely dominate the body.
Or the Chantry succeeded in making blood magic sound more dangerous than it actually is.

Another concern would be of course to secure lifeforce to sustain such control. There are items that improve blood magic and improve health regeneration, so that could do. Kidnapping some people and using blood sacrifice often can also work.
But if mind domination will cause your eyes to flash red (like Hawke), then that's a problem.

So it really depends on how mind domination works, if it is any different than blood control.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 septembre 2010 - 04:40 .

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't know how mind domination works. If the only form of mind domination is blood control (as in-game), then blood magic is almost over-hyped. Blood control only lasts for a very short duration, so why is it peole fear that blood mages can influence the minds of kings?

I think blood control only works for a short time to keep the game balanced. I'd think that for blood mages to be so feared due to their mind controlling abilities, they must be able to do better than that. My guess is that a blood mage could have a mind controlled for a determined period depending on the power he/she exerted on the spel (i.e., the amount of blood used).

[CalJones]

I'll agree with KoP but I still take most of the Chantry quests - at least the ones that involve helping people. These don't seem to be related to improving the Chantry's position, as far as I can see, anyway.

As far as the Ashes go, I dislike the Chantry but I disagree with desecrting human remains, no matter who they're from. To get around this, I make Genitivi return to Denerim. Even if you visit him there for the reward and tell him about the ashes, no one ever finds them. Problem solved.

Re: Jowan - free him in the dungeon and tell him that you never want to see him again. That's the only line that will get him to escape. His quest (Jowan's Intentions) will appear in your journal but it's broken so unless you have a mod, you won't be able to complete it. However, he'll survive, which is the main thing.

This does, however, make it impossible to sacrifice Isolde using blood magic. She's very pro-Chantry so I see this as a good thing. The alternative is killing Connor as an abomination - but then you don't get to go into the Fade and bargain with the demon. The other alternative is saving both Isolde and Connor using Circle mages.

Leliana can be left in Lothering. No more Chantry sister.

Modifié par CalJones, 29 septembre 2010 - 05:20 .

[Riona45]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

As for mind domination. Blood magic is feared for being able to influence the mind of kings and clerics. So I doubt the blood mage sleeping would remove the threat entirely. Besides, when the blood mage sleeps, Anora can be made to sleep too. Problem solved.

You don't think someone would notice that eventually?

[Riona45]

CalJones wrote...

I'll agree with KoP but I still take most of the Chantry quests - at least the ones that involve helping people. These don't seem to be related to improving the Chantry's position, as far as I can see, anyway.

In fact, IIRC the vast majority of Chantry quests have little or nothing to do with being "anti-magic" or furthering their dogma.  The only quests I can remember that have anything to do with the control of magic, actually, are two quests in Awakening--the one about tracking down apostate mages ("Out of Control") and the one about collecting sylvan samples, via chopping down Ancient Sylvans, for the templars ("From the Living Wood"). 

Modifié par Riona45, 29 septembre 2010 - 05:26 .