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[KnightofPhoenix]

Riona45 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

As for mind domination. Blood magic is feared for being able to influence the mind of kings and clerics. So I doubt the blood mage sleeping would remove the threat entirely. Besides, when the blood mage sleeps, Anora can be made to sleep too. Problem solved.

You don't think someone would notice that eventually?

If there exists a subtle form of mind domination, then no.
And if someone does notice, blood sacrifice

As for Chantry Quests. Doing them will reinforce the idea that the Chantry is here to help people. Not doing them will make the people less dependent on the Chantry for help. So yes, it does matter, in an rping sense.

[Herr Uhl]

The only subtle form of mind domination possible is a kind of suggestion. Otherwise you notice being controlled.



Very hard to attain though, and I can't be arsed to find the quote due to lack of dragonagecentral.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The only subtle form of mind domination possible is a kind of suggestion. Otherwise you notice being controlled.

Very hard to attain though, and I can't be arsed to find the quote due to lack of dragonagecentral.

I remember what Gaider.

Well blood magic is not as powerful as is suggested. A blood mage could not control a king or cleric except for a short period of time, which won't be that dangerous.

I hope they have some form of subtle mind influence.

[Herr Uhl]

I don't think you can control someone believably for a long matter of time, to make them move, talk and act as normal would be a feat in itself. And you'd have to keep it up, since you notice being controlled



The suggestion part is an interesting thing. If you're skilled at it that would be enough, and it wouldn't cause such dramatic changes either.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...
The suggestion part is an interesting thing. If you're skilled at it that would be enough, and it wouldn't cause such dramatic changes either.

Something like subtle mind influence. Yes, if that's possible, then it could work.

[Janni-in-VA]

I suspect that another reason the Chantry opposes blood magic is because it is powered by blood, which is readily available to any mage, rather than lyrium, which supply the Chantry controls. This idea is not new with me, several other forumites have pointed out the same thing.

You'll also remember that Cullen says that a blood mage or abomination could "...influence the mind of a king or a Grand Cleric." Outright control would be much more difficult, but planting an idea and allowing the person to believe it's their own would be very effective. Then, a little encouragement here, a nudge there, and the deed is done.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Janni-in-VA wrote...
You'll also remember that Cullen says that a blood mage or abomination could "...influence the mind of a king or a Grand Cleric." Outright control would be much more difficult, but planting an idea and allowing the person to believe it's their own would be very effective. Then, a little encouragement here, a nudge there, and the deed is done.

*resists referencing Inception....doh just did it*
Yes, that's what I mean. Subtle mind influence via blood magic.

[saruman85]

Janni-in-VA wrote...
You'll also remember that Cullen says that a blood mage or abomination could "...influence the mind of a king or a Grand Cleric." Outright control would be much more difficult, but planting an idea and allowing the person to believe it's their own would be very effective. Then, a little encouragement here, a nudge there, and the deed is done.

Or timing. Blood mages could insinuate themselves into important places and wait for just the right moment to strike.
Imagine if Cailan and Empress Celene did get around to meeting up. Just as they're about to sign an agreement or whatever, Jowan pulls a Jedi mind trick from behind a curtain and the Grand Cleric gets up, stabs Celene in the face and yells "ANDRASTE DISAPPROVES!"

Doesn't matter that people knew the Grand Cleric wasn't that sort of person, the damage would still have been done.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
*resists referencing Inception....doh just did it*

LOL I've been resisting that urge this whole thread. Well done

Modifié par saruman85, 29 septembre 2010 - 03:10 .

[LobselVith8]

Considering that the Chantry is located in Orlais and the story takes place in Ferelden, I think the Warden is limited in choices that would limit the Chantry's influence.

Destroying the Urn would allow the Dragon Andraste worshippers to flourish, permitting new converts to become part of the group that are pro-mage and completely against the Andrastian Chantry.

Getting the aid of the Dalish would allow for the Hinterlands (up to and including Ostagar) to be granted to them, allowing the creation of a Dalish homeland where they could worship the elven gods and not have to worry about being hunted by the templars because the ruler of Ferelden recognizes their sovereignty.

The Chantry Board quests don't really impact anything with the Chantry anymore than the Civil War quest really tackles the difficulty of the civil war that erupts between Arl Eamon and Teyrn Loghain's forces. The last quest as the Dark Wolf potentially allows the Chantry to get screwed over because of the Tears of Andraste, but it's hardly going to topple the Chantry or the Divine.

Helping save the Circle and getting their assistance in Redcliffe means that Arl Eamon and his family are now indebted to the Circle mages, and newly crowned King Alistair and Chancellor Eamon can potentially reverse the laws preventing mages from owning land or inheriting a title. The prominence of a magi Warden asking the ruler of Ferelden to emancipate the Circle of Ferelden, in addition to the future Arl of Redcliffe being the mage Connor, might cause a schism between the Chantry and Ferelden, since David Gaider has stated that the Chantry says no to the ruler who asks for the Magi boon.

Although helping the mages might not seen important, the main reason the Chantry was able to defeat the Qunari in the new Exalted March was because the Circle of Magi countered the advanced weaponry of the Qunari forces; gaining the trust of the mages of Ferelden would mean that the mages in the six Circles of Orlais might feel more inclined to see Ferelden succeed in gaining independence for the Circle of Ferelden, and cause an exodus of mages to depart Orlais for a nation that would recognize them as free, taking away an important tool the Chantry has in its defense.

Tell Burkel he's full of s**t. Further on the role of helping the mages (who the Chantry despise), Dagna being the first dwarf in the Circle of Magi after so many centuries would allow her research to permit a new Circle in Orzammar to rise, outside of the influence of the Chantry. Considering that Orzammar controls the lyrium trade with the Chantry, the Divine might contemplate an Exalted March on Orzammar, but they would never risk it, since their Circles and their templars depend on it. 

Electing a hardened Alistair with Anora would have two rulers at the helm of Ferelden who would give the Dalish their own homeland, be willing (although not able) to emancipate the Circle, but ultimately neither can really dismantle the Chantry, since Ferelden is one of the Andrastian nations, and neither is willing to go to war to grant the mages of the Circle their freedom.

[Herr Uhl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Although helping the mages might not seen important, the main reason the Chantry was able to defeat the Qunari in the new Exalted March was because the Circle of Magi countered the advanced weaponry of the Qunari forces.

They were pretty evenly matched, but the Qunari cannons and mages were worse than the mages of the circle. It was an advantage.

Just an aside, the main reason thing makes it seem like they just let loose some mages and sat back.

And new is also relative, it ended about 150 years prior to the game. I know that it is referred to as the new exalted march, but it irks me.

Well then, back to your regularly scheduled topic.

[LobselVith8]

Herr Uhl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Although helping the mages might not seen important, the main reason the Chantry was able to defeat the Qunari in the new Exalted March was because the Circle of Magi countered the advanced weaponry of the Qunari forces.

They were pretty evenly matched, but the Qunari cannons and mages were worse than the mages of the circle. It was an advantage.

Just an aside, the main reason thing makes it seem like they just let loose some mages and sat back.

Let me use a quote then. According to “Tales of the Destruction of Thedas” by Brother Genitivi, Chantry Scholar, “The greatest advantage that the Chantry-led forces had against the qunari was, in fact, the Circle of Magi. For all their technology, the qunari appeared to harbor a great hatred for all things magical. They possessed mages, but these were little better than animals kept on leashes… and none of the qunari mages possessed anywhere near the skill that the Circle’s mages had. Faced with cannons, the Chantry responded with lightning and balls of fire and it proved effective indeed.”

Herr Uhl wrote...

And new is also relative, it ended about 150 years prior to the game. I know that it is referred to as the new exalted march, but it irks me.

Well then, back to your regularly scheduled topic.

It will be awkward if they declare a new Exalted March during DA2.

[Herr Uhl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Although helping the mages might not seen important, the main reason the Chantry was able to defeat the Qunari in the new Exalted March was because the Circle of Magi countered the advanced weaponry of the Qunari forces.

They were pretty evenly matched, but the Qunari cannons and mages were worse than the mages of the circle. It was an advantage.

Just an aside, the main reason thing makes it seem like they just let loose some mages and sat back.

Let me use a quote then. According to “Tales of the Destruction of Thedas” by Brother Genitivi, Chantry Scholar, “The greatest advantage that the Chantry-led forces had against the qunari was, in fact, the Circle of Magi. For all their technology, the qunari appeared to harbor a great hatred for all things magical. They possessed mages, but these were little better than animals kept on leashes… and none of the qunari mages possessed anywhere near the skill that the Circle’s mages had. Faced with cannons, the Chantry responded with lightning and balls of fire and it proved effective indeed.”

Yes? It says that that was where they had the greatest advantage, not that it was won only by the mages. Saying that the mages were the main reason is waving off the soldiers that fought as of little to no meaning (at least to me). Semantics.

[Raiil]

Acharnae wrote...

Siduri wrote...

So, I recently heard Wynne's story about how her baby was taken away from her -- and as a mom, this hits me at a really primal level. I'm not sure I believe that anything is more evil than forcibly taking children from their mothers. It's a violation of everything that makes us human -- in fact, everything that makes us mammals. Suffice it to say I think it's Evil with a capital E.

Welcome to the club.

I've been saying this since day one of finishing DAO.
I've started as a mage and all I could think of is wow... they freaking kidnapped me from my family and now they want me to fight some monsters?
Screw that. Who do I kill and how do I get back to see my folks?

I actually believe that such a setting, kidnapping children, is unrealistic even for a fantasy setting. There would have been massive upriots and slaughters. Actually noone would even contemplate doing it.
But let's go along for game's sake.
I have yet to see Wynne's spin on the whole thing but yes the enemy is the chantry (and the circle of mages because it is a collaborator).

Although maybe the chantry isn't all bad in itself. But its specific practise is.

It's probably not viewed as kidnapping. People are brought up to fear mages. I'm sure there are plenty of parents who are 'lol w/e, don't touch my kid, mage or no' but there are probably just as many saying 'take this monster away from me before he sets the house on fire.' As Anders puts it, mages are merely tolerated. 

[LobselVith8]

Herr Uhl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Although helping the mages might not seen important, the main reason the Chantry was able to defeat the Qunari in the new Exalted March was because the Circle of Magi countered the advanced weaponry of the Qunari forces.

They were pretty evenly matched, but the Qunari cannons and mages were worse than the mages of the circle. It was an advantage.

Just an aside, the main reason thing makes it seem like they just let loose some mages and sat back.

Let me use a quote then. According to “Tales of the Destruction of Thedas” by Brother Genitivi, Chantry Scholar, “The greatest advantage that the Chantry-led forces had against the qunari was, in fact, the Circle of Magi. For all their technology, the qunari appeared to harbor a great hatred for all things magical. They possessed mages, but these were little better than animals kept on leashes… and none of the qunari mages possessed anywhere near the skill that the Circle’s mages had. Faced with cannons, the Chantry responded with lightning and balls of fire and it proved effective indeed.”

Yes? It says that that was where they had the greatest advantage, not that it was won only by the mages. Saying that the mages were the main reason is waving off the soldiers that fought as of little to no meaning (at least to me). Semantics.

I never said it was won only by mages, you did. According to the excerpt, in addition to their numbers, Genitivi wrote that the mages were the edge against the Qunari. However, he wrote one line about the numbers of people being greater than the number of Qunari, and he covers multiple lines to distinquish how valuable the mages were in the battles against the Qunari.

[Herr Uhl]

Did I say anything else? I said that using "main reason" makes it seem that way to me.



Read my posts again if you want confirmation on that.

[LobselVith8]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Did I say anything else? I said that using "main reason" makes it seem that way to me.

Read my posts again if you want confirmation on that.

Which is why I clarified it by the inclusion of Genitivi's excerpt about the New Exalted March and the part that the Circle mages played against the invasion of the Qunari.

[CalJones]

Does anyone know if the Ancient Sylvans still attack you if you don't have that quest in your journal?

[Elhanan]

Help Lil change the Chantry to her unique POV; destroy what is wrong with the organization and keep what is true religion.

[Xilizhra]

Defile the ashes. Even though keeping them intact could cause problems for the Chantry, defiling them and leaving Kolgrim alive will lead to the first outsider conversions to the Disciples of Andraste, which could be huge.

[Giggles_Manically]

Xilizhra wrote...

Defile the ashes. Even though keeping them intact could cause problems for the Chantry, defiling them and leaving Kolgrim alive will lead to the first outsider conversions to the Disciples of Andraste, which could be huge.

Or see an army to templars and circle mages descend on them and wipe them out. 
Or Orlais arriving to wipe them out since there are many pious people there.

Things dont exist by themselves and there are more powers at work here, with converts starting to arrive news WILL leak out, and then the ramifications wont be so nice.

What happens when the Chantry says the Queen consorts with heretics? The monarch may have power but the chantry can sway as much if not more influence.
 

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 29 septembre 2010 - 05:38 .

[Elhanan]

Help Bros Burkel; will help take the heat off of Dagna while she gains knowledge of magic and the Circle. Plus she may end up meeting Sandal, and they would make quite a duo....

[Xilizhra]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Defile the ashes. Even though keeping them intact could cause problems for the Chantry, defiling them and leaving Kolgrim alive will lead to the first outsider conversions to the Disciples of Andraste, which could be huge.

Or see an army to templars and circle mages descend on them and wipe them out. 
Or Orlais arriving to wipe them out since there are many pious people there.

Things dont exist by themselves and there are more powers at work here, with converts starting to arrive news WILL leak out, and then the ramifications wont be so nice.

What happens when the Chantry says the Queen consorts with heretics? The monarch may have power but the chantry can sway as much if not more influence.
 

Then use your champion status to hopefully get them to show a relatively peaceful face to the outside world. Defensive violence is all right, maybe, but no swooping in and destroying villages or anything. They should hopefully be agreeable to that; if they're not a huge amount of trouble, the Chantry might not strike until it's too late.

[Giggles_Manically]

Xilizhra wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Defile the ashes. Even though keeping them intact could cause problems for the Chantry, defiling them and leaving Kolgrim alive will lead to the first outsider conversions to the Disciples of Andraste, which could be huge.

Or see an army to templars and circle mages descend on them and wipe them out. 
Or Orlais arriving to wipe them out since there are many pious people there.

Things dont exist by themselves and there are more powers at work here, with converts starting to arrive news WILL leak out, and then the ramifications wont be so nice.

What happens when the Chantry says the Queen consorts with heretics? The monarch may have power but the chantry can sway as much if not more influence.
 

Then use your champion status to hopefully get them to show a relatively peaceful face to the outside world. Defensive violence is all right, maybe, but no swooping in and destroying villages or anything. They should hopefully be agreeable to that; if they're not a huge amount of trouble, the Chantry might not strike until it's too late.

Kolgrim is not a person who can be controlled for long.
Religous Extremists dont listen to reason their faith guides them and even insane ideas seem rational to them.