561 réponses à ce sujet

[ADLegend21]

smudboy wrote...

This is nitpicking. At a purely cosmetic one. Both scenes have exactly the same understood meaning. Liara is still having a cathartic moment, nor is it assigned any difference in intensity to either with or without the mute button. Seriously, we need serious issues of storytelling to argue here, not whether or not one can hear the cries in ones emotion: the impact of the proceeding scene is the same.

REALLY?! you of all people should be comlaining about nitpicking Mr. Plothole's are everywhere. there's nothing serious about your arguements about what you find faulty in the story of one of the best games of the year so don't come in here trying to devalue a real issue.

[Captain Crash]

Well being absent from this thread for the past few hours I see there have been quite a few developments.



Really happy the devs replied to the issue, it is nice to know they do care and are concerned about what we see as a fault. Of course animations need to time correctly as said, but that still doesnt deter me from thinking the whole thing was rushed with femshep. Plus as said the Liara crying bit doesnt effect Hales voice acting in that sense, so its not a perfect explanation. But hey its a start and its nice to know they arnt purposely trying to lessen the femshep experience.



I get the feeling though a lot of new comers are thinking femshep players are being over picky. Which is not the case. We just don't like having conflicting scenes where one is clearly a different experience to the other.

[bjdbwea]

smudboy wrote...

This is nitpicking. At a purely cosmetic one. Both scenes have exactly the same understood meaning. Liara is still having a cathartic moment, nor is it assigned any difference in intensity to either with or without the mute button. Seriously, we need serious issues of storytelling to argue here, not whether or not one can hear the cries in ones emotion: the impact of the proceeding scene is the same.

I'm a bit surprised that you would say that. I like your video analysis of the flaws of ME 2. I also know that some people have accused you of nitpicking, but I mostly disagree with them. And I think this issue, too, is not irrelevant. It doesn't reduce my enjoyment of LotSB, but it does make a difference. It's worth mentioning, and I'm glad someone from BioWare even responded. That didn't happen often so far when someone voiced criticism about ME 2.

Hopefully, something like this will not happen again. Though on the other hand, one should be careful what to wish for. If I had to choose between a scene with depth and some clipping or dialogue issues, or a scene with no depth and no clipping issues and little dialogue to begin with, I would definitely choose the former.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 29 septembre 2010 - 10:28 .

[Mecha Tengu]

Captain Crash wrote...


I get the feeling though a lot of new comers are thinking femshep players are being over picky. Which is not the case. We just don't like having conflicting scenes where one is clearly a different experience to the other.

it's one animation, albeit not even a serious graphical issue.... you're going to give the devs a hard time because of one single animation interfering with your fictional rommance?

maybe just a bit picky

a bit....

[smudboy]

ADLegend21 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

This is nitpicking. At a purely cosmetic one. Both scenes have exactly the same understood meaning. Liara is still having a cathartic moment, nor is it assigned any difference in intensity to either with or without the mute button. Seriously, we need serious issues of storytelling to argue here, not whether or not one can hear the cries in ones emotion: the impact of the proceeding scene is the same.

REALLY?! you of all people should be comlaining about nitpicking Mr. Plothole's are everywhere. there's nothing serious about your arguements about what you find faulty in the story of one of the best games of the year so don't come in here trying to devalue a real issue.

Having a critical eye, it's good to know what's worth analyzing and what isn't.  While I do find the difference in scenes odd, it is of very little narrative value and says nothing of charactization.  Liara is crying either way.  She's having her "weight off her shoulders" moment.  You can describe both scenes as such:

Liara holds her hands over her face, crying, unable to control herself.

Unless I'm mistaken, the only difference is we can hear the crying.  The meaning is exactly the same: she's crying.  She's not crying uncontrollably from pain or pleasure, she's crying from relief.  Her personality isn't different in either case, there's no character change in any other way.  She didn't fall to her knees and wail.  It's the equivalent of seeing a different shade of beige boots she's wearing: they're still beige.

What's more important is why she's crying.

Anyway, I've done a similar comparison to cutscenes where people are holding a gun like a rifle, vice versa, or sometimes the character isn't even in the scene because they can't equip a handgun.  Shall I now focus entirely on this completely trivial, cosmetic change where ZAEED IS MAGICALLY INVISIBLE?

Modifié par smudboy, 29 septembre 2010 - 10:31 .

[ADLegend21]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

Captain Crash wrote...


I get the feeling though a lot of new comers are thinking femshep players are being over picky. Which is not the case. We just don't like having conflicting scenes where one is clearly a different experience to the other.

it's one animation, albeit not even a serious graphical issue.... you're going to give the devs a hard time because of one single animation interfering with your fictional rommance?

maybe just a bit picky

a bit....

ever hear the term "the straw that broke the camel's back" ?

[smudboy]

[Crap, I am absolutely sorry, smudboy because I hit the wrong button instead of replying to you. The original post is, I believe, quoted correctly here. -- Pacifien]

Modifié par Pacifien, 29 septembre 2010 - 11:00 .

[Captain Crash]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

it's one animation, albeit not even a serious graphical issue.... you're going to give the devs a hard time because of one single animation interfering with your fictional rommance?

maybe just a bit picky

a bit....

My quote message on page 8 sums up why it more then a simple animation, its an emotive issue in a highly emotive scene which raises the boundaries to something different in one animation and not the other.


" It just seems so lazy.  I mean they went to the effort of closing her legs in the scene after. But the build up scene where all the emotion is flowing and they have got miss matched voice animations and arms clipping through arms.  It just seems so rushed and to such a poor standard its almost embarrassing to look at on those youtube vids.   

Plus when you been looking forward to the DLC and you see such obvious differences between male and female playthroughs you cant help but feel hurt that Bioware continue to ignore your character and give her a subpar scenes when its already in the game!"

[jlb524]

rynluna wrote...

I see that most people don't know what it means to put themselves in other people's shoes.

If only FemShep were able to give Tali a paragon hug interrupt during her loyalty quest...can you imagine how the forums would look? lol.

Good point and great example

[bjdbwea]

smudboy wrote...

It is worth mentioning, and that's that.  But that's not the issue.  The issue is it's cosmetic: it changes nothing except a volume control or sound asset.

I disagree. It does change the atmosphere of the scene, makes it slightly more emotional. And it's not some random cutscene, it's a key scene. As I said, this doesn't reduce my enjoyment of LotSB at all, but I don't think it's fair to say that the difference doesn't matter.

Mostly I would still like to understand why there needed to be any differences in that particular dialogue in the first place. The clipping issues have been explained, they are unfortunate but excusable, but the other explanation was very vague at best.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 29 septembre 2010 - 10:43 .

[Blackveldt]

smudboy wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

smudboy wrote...

This is nitpicking. At a purely cosmetic one. Both scenes have exactly the same understood meaning. Liara is still having a cathartic moment, nor is it assigned any difference in intensity to either with or without the mute button. Seriously, we need serious issues of storytelling to argue here, not whether or not one can hear the cries in ones emotion: the impact of the proceeding scene is the same.

I'm a bit surprised that you would say that. I like your video analysis of the flaws of ME 2. I also know that some people have accused you of nitpicking, but I mostly disagree with them. And I think this issue, too, is not irrelevant. It doesn't reduce my enjoyment of LotSB, but it does make a difference. It's worth mentioning, and I'm glad someone from BioWare even responded. That didn't happen often so far when someone voiced criticism.

Hopefully, something like this will not happen again. Though on the other hand, one should be careful what to wish for. If I had to choose between a scene with depth and some clipping or dialogue issues, or a scene with no depth and no clipping issues and little dialogue to begin with, I would definitely choose the former.

It is worth mentioning, and that's that.  But that's not the issue.  The issue is it's cosmetic: it changes nothing except a volume control or sound asset.

Right, focus ones' arguments on things that matter, scenes with depth.  In this scene, Liara is crying due to her quest or 2 year long revenge/non-revenge stint being over.  What's more important to argue is was she crying due to her revenge being over (even though she already tossed that aside previously.)

Actually, I'm relatively certain that at least some of these folks are upset about the possible reasonings for why such an 'oversight,' whether it was or not, occurred in the first place.  Not knowing made them conjure negative possible reasons:  femShep was less focused on (taking a 'backburner' to maleShep) and therefore, Liara's (audio) crying was forgotten, Shepard's animations were rendered with the idea of maleShep in mind first and foremost and simply duplicated for femShep (femShep opening her legs, running, etc) and so on and so forth.

Modifié par Blackveldt, 29 septembre 2010 - 10:43 .

[Count Viceroy]

NO HUG ? - The count disapproves -10

[Captain Crash]

bjdbwea wrote...

I disagree. It does change the atmosphere of the scene, makes it slightly more emotional. And it's not some random cutscene, it's a key scene. As I said, this doesn't reduce my enjoyment of LotSB at all, but I don't think it's fair to say that the difference doesn't matter.

Mostly I would still like to understand why there needed to be any differences in that particular dialogue in the first place. The clipping issues have been explained, they are unfortunate but excusable, but the other explanation was very vague at best.

This is a much better way of saying what I was trying to say  

[Melancholic]

Somebody should copy-paste the sobbing audio into the FemShep video so we know for sure if it works and how much it affects the scene. It could also serve as evidence if they continue to support the "It wouldn't fit" statement.

[Zurcior]

rynluna wrote...

I see that most people don't know what it means to put themselves in other people's shoes.

If only FemShep were able to give Tali a paragon hug interrupt during her loyalty quest...can you imagine how the forums would look? lol.

That is a horrible example. In context, or not.

[jlb524]

Zurcior wrote...

rynluna wrote...

I see that most people don't know what it means to put themselves in other people's shoes.

If only FemShep were able to give Tali a paragon hug interrupt during her loyalty quest...can you imagine how the forums would look? lol.

That is a horrible example. In context, or not.

I think that example is perfect.  The similarity being that one gender of Shepard misses out on a key emotional moment of an LI character, even if it's one tiny thing.

[Fiery Phoenix]

mashavasilec wrote...

Loghain hath spoken Ladies and Gentlemen

We can all go to bed now

Seriously, though, Loghain Smud does have a point.

[cachx]

wait a second, is this all because of a missing sound clip?

smudboy wrote...
This is nitpicking. At a purely cosmetic one. Both scenes have exactly the same understood meaning. Liara is still
having a cathartic moment, nor is it assigned any difference in intensity to either with or without the mute button. Seriously, we need serious issues of storytelling to argue here, not whether or not one can hear the cries in ones emotion: the impact of the proceeding scene is  the same.

I have to agree with good ol' Smugs on this one.

I have played LotSB only twice now, (femshep romancing Liara, manshep not romancing) and I never noticed any of this. I was far more distracted by the lighting fast Paragon Interrupts.

[JamieCOTC]

Zurcior wrote...

rynluna wrote...

I see that most people don't know what it means to put themselves in other people's shoes.

If only FemShep were able to give Tali a paragon hug interrupt during her loyalty quest...can you imagine how the forums would look? lol.

That is a horrible example. In context, or not.

Not to step on anyone's toes, but a better example would be what if during the hug Tali, while still obviously distraught,  remained silent w/ dudeShep, but cried, "damnit, damnit" only w/ femShep.  One could argue THAT would be nitpicking. Just taking out that one minute aspect would not detour the meaning of her emotions, even if we cannot see her crying. The meaning would still be there.  The only thing missing would be a slight nuance that could be easily overlooked.  And yet, it adds so much to the scene. 

To be honest, I am not as upset over the difference as I am curious. Is it a case of oversight?  Maybe, the devs thought the different scene would play better w/ femShep and so it actually points to the fact that they are listening to us even more than we thought.  Whatever the case, I don’t believe there was any malice involved here.  While I hope my fellow femShep players continue to voice their opinions, loudly and respectfully, I don’t want BW to get into a “damned if they do, damned if they don’t” situation w/ the character.  I understand why my fellow femShep players view the dudeShep scene as being superior; however I see it as simply being different.  I actually prefer the non smiling cabin scene myself.  With dudeShep, she’s very playful.  With femShep she’s more “into the moment.” That said, I am still curious about the scene and will continue to support femShep until she becomes her own character and, clipping aside, is treated equally w/in the game.

[oenis]

rynluna wrote...

I see that most people don't know what it means to put themselves in other people's shoes.

If only FemShep were able to give Tali a paragon hug interrupt during her loyalty quest...can you imagine how the forums would look? lol.

It's exactly the same thing; people who call it nitpicking are people who didn't romance Liara as femshep. I didn't either but if the same thing happened to femshep/kaidan, I'd be just as peeved. I mean, there is only a certain amount of interaction; fans want it done properly. Devs should feel good that people care so much about the characters. It is testimony to their good design.

[davidshooter]

JamieCOTC wrote...



To be honest, I am not as upset over the difference as I am curious.

Yeah, me too.  Particularly since the Dev's response makes no sense as an explanation for the crying - eyes closed scene differences between the two genders, which has really been the central complaint in this thread.  Very odd.

Modifié par davidshooter, 30 septembre 2010 - 12:04 .

[Naltair]

rynluna wrote...

I see that most people don't know what it means to put themselves in other people's shoes.

If only FemShep were able to give Tali a paragon hug interrupt during her loyalty quest...can you imagine how the forums would look? lol.

But that has nothing to do with paragon interrupts, it would be one thing if one gender had them and another did not but that is not the case.  This would be more apt if Female Shepard hears the footage on Haelstrom about "Wishing Shepard was here..." and the male not having it.  

There relationship in the end is still exactly the same as they exist in the game.

Modifié par Naltair, 30 septembre 2010 - 12:30 .

[Whatever42]

Naltair wrote...

rynluna wrote...

I see that most people don't know what it means to put themselves in other people's shoes.

If only FemShep were able to give Tali a paragon hug interrupt during her loyalty quest...can you imagine how the forums would look? lol.

But that has nothing to do with paragon interrupts, it would be one thing if one gender had them and another did not but that is not the case.  This would be more apt if Female Shepard hears the footage on Haelstrom about "Wishing Shepard was here..." and the male not having it.  

There relationship in the end is still exactly the same as they exist in the game.

I'd be ok with that. Tali's obsession got a little creepy by that point. In that case, though, I would argue that missing audio of crying when she was obviously still crying is a little different than yanking spoken words. In that case, creepy or not, they were highlighting Tali's obsession with Shepard. It has more context than a missing sound. 

Regardless, people would undoubtedly bring it up but when they talk about how hurt they were? How angry they were? How deeply disappointed they were? Not likely. Ok, I admit Smudboy would probably make a video and it would be put on a list of why ME2 was the worst game in history but would it suddenly make a scene everyone loved into a deeply disappointing moment? I can't see it.