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[Avilia]

The whole feeling I got from the Broken Circle quest was that Templars were required to be celibate. Apparently that's incorrect.

I'd hadn't seen it discussed here until DA2 plot points were coming out and Aveline and her Templar husband (who's name I've forgotten) were mentioned. I could be wrong but that seemed a bit of a retcon to me. Or did I just miss that discussion?

It just makes so much more sense to me if they're celibate. Any thoughts from more knowlegable people than me?

(I won't even mention the female templar thing - I assumed the Templars were all male and the priests were all female. Females being in charge as its an Andrastian religion - but then we get Rylock magically appearing in Awakenings - oh well. I was probably just on the wrong track but again that is just so much more interesting to me than how its turning out.)

Edit - ToP and as this is fan thread:

Modifié par Avilia, 26 octobre 2010 - 04:18 .

[Miri1984]

It's never actually stated whether they have to be celibate or not - although Alistair does talk about taking his "final vows" which to me implies it VERY STRONGLY. Maybe Aveline and her Templar got married BEFORE he became a Templar? The Catholic church allows priests who are already married to stay married if they take orders. I think...

[Avilia]

Miri1984 wrote...

It's never actually stated whether they have to be celibate or not - although Alistair does talk about taking his "final vows" which to me implies it VERY STRONGLY. Maybe Aveline and her Templar got married BEFORE he became a Templar? The Catholic church allows priests who are already married to stay married if they take orders. I think...

Exactly my feeling and Leliana very clearly says 'you must have been brother before that'.

I saw a discussion thread on it though. I'm sure DG or someone came out and said they didn't have to be celibate, which rather annoyed me.  I'll have a hunt when I get home tonight and see if I can dig it up.

[Sarah1281]

Well, they could always have some sort of vow requiring them not to have premarital sex and the templars aren't supposed to get involved with mages plus female templars seem to be a rarity and Chantry sisters DO take vows of chastity (unless Lily is full of it). How would the templar the desire demon enchants have any sort of chance of meeting someone to marry or be able to raise a family while stationed in the Circle?

[Avilia]

Phew - found it.  Just for a change my memory was correct :

DG post linky

It must just have been my ideas of what I'd like to see.  See this is why I write - I'm a control freak and must have everything go the way I want ;-)

Edit - I still think what DG says doesn't quite marry (heh marry, geddit) with the overall impressions I get from the Circle, Cullen and in fact Alistair.  But, you know, I've been wrong before...

Modifié par Avilia, 26 octobre 2010 - 08:28 .

[Avilia]

Caladhiel wrote...

Avilia wrote...

Phew - found it.  Just for a change my memory was correct :

DG post linky

It must just have been my ideas of what I'd like to see.  See this is why I write - I'm a control freak and must have everything go the way I want ;-)

Edit - I still think what DG says doesn't quite marry (heh marry, geddit) with the overall impressions I get from the Circle, Cullen and in fact Alistair.  But, you know, I've been wrong before...

But what DG said practically does come very close to celibacy. He stated that marriages were absolute exceptions from the rule, the rule being that intimate relationships are a taboo. Although one must say that celibacy does seem to go hand in hand with what principles the individual Templar upholds. Carroll, for example, is only too willing to go for a tumble with either Morrigan or Leliana if given the chance (he isn't given the chance, of course, but he's not even afraid to show it in front of you and your companions^^). I would bet anything though that Cullen, put in Carroll's place, would never *ever* openly come up with an idea like that^^
A pity, actually, since the odd tumble and... uh... venting... would have saved him scenes like this.

That's a great pic.

I suppose my issue is that I would prefer that celibacy was the rule.  Not from personal belief (very much not) but simply that it seems to fit better with the world I see in Thedas.  Again, just my view.   It seems to me that an organisation like the Chantry would put that restriction on its Templars.  Oh well..

If DG says it isn't, then it isn't.  I'll retire disappointed to my corner.

[sabreene]

I see the Chantry as turning a blind eye to the Templars sex life, as long as it's not flaunted or with a mage. Sort of a 'don't ask don't tell' policy -- where they prefer if it not happen, but there's not punishment if it does.

It would be very hard to keep a group of active warriors celibate, especially after battles. Too much adrenaline flowing. And if they gave into that need, but felt they had to hide it and were guilty, that could erode their faith in either themselves or their calling.

At the same time, the Chantry wouldn't want to encourage relations or long term affairs, since having ties outside of the Templars could splinter their devotions. Which is why (in my stories) they need special permission to marry -- the Chantry would want to make sure nothing was going to interfere with their first duty.

Modifié par sabreene, 26 octobre 2010 - 09:29 .

[sabreene]

I Aimo

[Avilia]

Wow - thanks for the linky. Amazing how much she can convey in a such a quick sketch!

[Shutterbones]

I absolutely love those pictures by Aimo. They convey the entire landscape of Cullen's mixed struggles with so little space.



But regarding the thoughts/confusion regarding celibacy with Templars--personally I find all the information about them a bit scarce and skewed. I wish they had more upfront direct information, because I too assumed that when they took their "final vows" they were resigning from any form of physical fraternization with another person. I mean, I think that's the impression EVERYONE got, especially when a lot of our little information on templars is learned from someone like Alistair.



I spent a lot of time trying to gather as much in-game information about templars as I could, but again--it feels like one of those topics they just sort of set to the side and never fully elaborated on, and all of a sudden DA2 pops up with a templar who is married and everyone who even paid a tenth of an attention to what we assumed was unspoken templar "rules", goes WHOAH WHOAH HOLD UP. At least that's what I did.



I think a lot of the information began contradicting itself, and perhaps the explanation they give now and is sort of assumed (the "don't ask, don't tell" policy, which I can see how it works) is just a way of correcting information they didn't think completely through in the first place. I'm not criticizing, but that's my observation anyhow. Like, first they just let it be assumed templars took their vows of celibacy and couldn't marry, then inconsistencies and contradictions popped up in the game that caused players to bring up questions, which they tried to find an answer for without saying it was contradictory. And then the templars-can-marry idea just sort of popped up out of nowhere with DA2, and I find that very out of place. Seriously you'd think they'd mention that sooner, but I guess beggers can't be choosers. Sigh.



I could ramble on for a really, really long time about inconsistencies and things that left a lot to be desired with the mage origin. I like it the most though for that same reason--the vague "suggestive" nature of the story allows the player to create a lot of the backstory to fill in the gaps the game creators forgot to fill. Perhaps they didn't count on so many people digging into the origin, but personally none of the other origins come even a fraction close to the mage origin for me. I adore it so much, for the dynamics and story and of course the Cullen part.



Personally, if they can give Morrigan her own downloadable capaign quest I say Cullen deserves a full expedition because he plays such a large role in a female mage's origin. I find it unfair the really, really important characters from the mage origin were so easily forgotten or fade into the background after only a few little chats. Cullen, Jowan, First Enchanter, all of them. But that's just me being picky, I suppose haha.

[Shutterbones]

Also lol on the other thread that was linked regarding Templars and Chastity (REALLY interesting thread, btw! Thank you for the link Avilia!) there was a discussion about how mages handle chastity, and there was this comment by David Gaider that made me giggle:

David Gaider wrote...



Considering the sexual attitudes of most mages, I imagine your average Circle of Magi is like High School with all sorts of social politics, petty bickering, betrayals and a First Enchanter who constantly rubs her temples at all the things the mages get up to. After all, since they're generally locked up in there, what else do they have to do?

I couldn't have put it more eloquently XD

[Avilia]

@tysandri - thank you. Your post said what I wanted to but didn't have the words.



I called it a retcon - perhaps it was less that and more "omg! we need templars stuffs" ;-)

[Shutterbones]

The whole situation regarding templars and mages and the circle itself has a LOT to offer--I mean darkspawn were created because of a group of ambitious mages, right? So the story goes. You'd assume they would have a larger, more impacting role in the story or at least more attention, but it almost felt like they were just a "last minute add-on" as an origin for those that wanted to use magic, as if the origin itself wasn't too terribly important.



I can understand the creators worked very very hard and the work they did was absolutely STUNNING. I mean, I've adored the mage origin this long, and I won't stop now. But everything you love has potential for more love, and these were just my thoughts on it.



I love the idea of templars. The moment I played the mage origin and felt the other-worldly politics, culture, and signature aura of the Circle it was like I'd entered an entirely new game. The Circle is, in it's own right, it's own separated world from the rest of Ferelden inside of that tower. What makes me sad is it didn't feel like there was enough impact and attention given to the things that, to me, absolutely DEMANDED my attention from the beginning. There should have been more dialog options to allow you to framework out where your mage originated from and how they arrived at the tower. In retrospect, it should affect further dialog options down the line.



But back to my topic. Cullen, from the instant he appeared in game, I thought was going to play a huge role in my mage's story. I was curious and thrilled and instantly fell in love with templars and wanted to learn more about them, yet it was essentially like waving a nice piece of candy in front of my face and then jerking it away. After that initial interest was hinted, we never hear a word from him again. He disappears, as does Jowan, like they didn't even have any sort of impact on the mage's life (which is the furthest from the truth). That felt unfair to me, and later on when your mage returns to the tower, you are given almost the EXACT same dialog from Cullen as a complete stranger would in the game. That upset me deeply. Five seconds of choice dialog could have been altered there to at least satisfy a little bit of my pining for a more in-depth communication between a supposedly significant person in my female mage's life, but word-for-word it was pretty much the same dialog that was given on my first playthrough when I played a human noble.



That was my biggest issue with Cullen's brief introduction and exit. He wasn't given the airtime that he deserved.

[Sarah1281]

Well, canonically you and Cullen have never done anything. You did not have a relationship and he just has a really obvious crush on you but if you try to go anywhere he runs away. I'm not sure how significant he can really be in canon. You can RP it however you like but I don't blame them for not having extra dialogue for a minor character. I mean, you don't even have to meet him in the origin unlike, say, Jowan.



And I think that the whole 'mages became darkspawn' is part of the justificaiton used for mage oppression and one reason mages are so hated and feared.

[Avilia]

For a relatively minor character he gets an epilogue slide. That's a bit odd now I think of it.



He certainly smells of unfulfilled potential to me.

[Shutterbones]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Well, canonically you and Cullen have never done anything. You did not have a relationship and he just has a really obvious crush on you but if you try to go anywhere he runs away. I'm not sure how significant he can really be in canon. You can RP it however you like but I don't blame them for not having extra dialogue for a minor character. I mean, you don't even have to meet him in the origin unlike, say, Jowan.

And I think that the whole 'mages became darkspawn' is part of the justificaiton used for mage oppression and one reason mages are so hated and feared.

Now that I think about it, that is true.. I do suppose if they were to give into the whims of everyone who fancied a particular origin (for example putting more emphasis on one minor character or another) it would defeat the structure already built.

What does make me wonder though--the rumor about Cullen supposedly scrapped as a companion? If there was a possiblity for him, at one point, on the drawing board as a party member, perhaps he would have been given a larger role if presented with the opportunity. But again, I suppose you are right and it's the fact I've simply dug in my heels so deep to the mage story I forget that fact at times. Thank you for the perspective!

[Shutterbones]

Avilia wrote...

For a relatively minor character he gets an epilogue slide. That's a bit odd now I think of it.

He certainly smells of unfulfilled potential to me.

LOL haha he probably does. *imagines he wears the scent quite well*

I never actually thought about that. HMMMM Perhaps the devs need to tell us something!~ Haha.

[Sarah1281]

Avilia wrote...

For a relatively minor character he gets an epilogue slide. That's a bit odd now I think of it.

He certainly smells of unfulfilled potential to me.

And a very interesting epilogue slide at that. Serial mage killer or strictest knight-commander ever. It's all up to you.

[Avilia]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Avilia wrote...

For a relatively minor character he gets an epilogue slide. That's a bit odd now I think of it.

He certainly smells of unfulfilled potential to me.

And a very interesting epilogue slide at that. Serial mage killer or strictest knight-commander ever. It's all up to you.

Always strictest knight-commander ever for me.

[Exile Isan]

He's mentioned in Witch Hunt you know.

[sylvanaerie]

Cmess has done a mod to add to the Cullen story in the origin (a gift from him in commemoration of your successful Harrowing) and a kiss and a cutscene as you leave the Tower with Duncan. And a ressurected additional couple of lines that were cut from the Broken Tower encounter with crazy Cullen in the cage.

And that inspired me to write a story of Cullen and my Surana (very short) about what he may be thinking during her harrowing. It can be found here if you want to read.



http://social.biowar...index/5107263/1



and while I'm sharing heck a pic of the Cullen mod I made for my game from one of Cmess' additional cutscenes. I think she plans on releasing it publically (I'm just lucky to be one of her testers and have access to it).

[Shutterbones]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Cmess has done a mod to add to the Cullen story in the origin (a gift from him in commemoration of your successful Harrowing) and a kiss and a cutscene as you leave the Tower with Duncan. And a ressurected additional couple of lines that were cut from the Broken Tower encounter with crazy Cullen in the cage.
And that inspired me to write a story of Cullen and my Surana (very short) about what he may be thinking during her harrowing. It can be found here if you want to read.

http://social.biowar...index/5107263/1

and while I'm sharing heck a pic of the Cullen mod I made for my game from one of Cmess' additional cutscenes. I think she plans on releasing it publically (I'm just lucky to be one of her testers and have access to it).

Ohhhh! That sounds super interesting, actually! I only know of the released group companion mod where you can optionally have Jowan, Cullen, Gorim, and some others in your party should you choose. I believe it was linked.

I don't think that's the same one since you said it's not publically released, though I HAVE heard of the Cullen Kiss mod and have tried it lol! I actually can't use it because I have the Luchaire's Better Sex Scenes installed and uh, if you have those both at the same time it glitches and instead of a nice Cullen/Mage cutscene you get a rather explicit and random love scene with Alistair. XDD

Way to break my heart. Sob.

Let me know when that's released to the public! I'd definitely be interested!