148 réponses à ce sujet

[Khraum]

I mean DA makes us seem like the real blight. We conquer, pillage, rape and in the case elves, literally bring physical pollution. Most of all, in our appetite for power and exploitation we blew up heaven and unleashed a force out to destroy everything. Sure, elves and dwarves are bad too. Zathrian cursed humans and the dwarves turned their poor into golems, but it was because of bad things we did or to fight off problems we created. I know all fantasy likes to offer some social commentary on the real world, but the whole human bashing thing is starting to get cliched. I, for one, would like a more complicated story behind how the blight really started and the DA world turn the way it is, why doesn't rely on overly used tropes like making oppressed groups look like native Americans, Jews etc and humans racist parasites.

Modifié par Khraum, 01 octobre 2010 - 07:28 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

Social message, mister. It's all about the dreaded social message.

[marshalleck]

Well you've got a point. Good humans would certainly be a fantasy.

[Herr Uhl]

The "hubris caused the blight" is the chantry version.



They are the social police in DA.

[Khraum]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Social message, mister. It's all about the dreaded social message.

I'm not saying that DA shouldn't have a social message, or that it should make humans look good, but that it should do it in a less cliched fashion. I mean look at Battlestar Galactica (the new story). It explore issues such as terrorism, use of torture and limits of democracy, genocide and religious/ethnic conflicts, but wrapped them into a distinct storyline that didn't copy from the real world.

[highcastle]

Humans aren't the only ones evil in DA. You pointed out yourself some of the evils committed by the dwarves and elves. And you can't blame humans for all of them. Bhelen's actions in the Dwarf Noble origins were strictly a result of his own ambition and resentment. Humanity didn't factor into it.

That being said, these emotional evils are the real heart of any story. We identify strongly with something based on how real it seems. While fantasy may seem like it could break from reality pretty easily, you actually need to be more conscious of human emotions and intentions so that your breaks from reality don't case the world to crumble down around you. Also, most of us here are human. We identify most strongly with humans and human motivations. It makes something more compelling to us.

Besides, humanity wasn't uniformly evil in DA. There were good acts, too. That's part of what made the game so nuanced and effective.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

So you can be the one that's good and saves the race.



In other words, they're bad to make you look good.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Social message, mister. It's all about the dreaded social message.

marshalleck wrote...

Well you've got a point. Good humans would certainly be a fantasy.

These.

[andar91]

Humans aren't evil, they're human. That's the point.



Alistair wanted revenge against Loghain no matter what the cost to morale, but he also sacrifices himself to save everyone (or at least, he can). Loghain betrayed his king and many others, but he did it because he thought he was saving Ferelden. Wynne was harsh to one of her apprentices and by extension caused him to run away and be hunted by templars, but she went on to beg them to spare him and went on to tutor many after learning from her mistake. Jowan dabbled in forbidden, dark magic, but he wholeheartedly loved someone and cared for her and was even willing to sacrifice himself at a later date to correct the wrongs he had done. I could go on.



People are complex, and the writers know this. That's what makes this different than a fairy tale; there is no clearly defined good and evil. Only people.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

[quote]Khraum wrote...

[quote]Ortaya Alevli wrote...

It explore issues such as terrorism, use of torture and limits of democracy, genocide and religious/ethnic conflicts, but wrapped them into a distinct storyline that didn't copy from the real world.

[/quote]

Did you read what you wrote? Because...  /facepalm.


Also, allow me to note, unregistered user, inflamatory comments.

[Khraum]

highcastle wrote...

Besides, humanity wasn't uniformly evil in DA. There were good acts, too. That's part of what made the game so nuanced and effective.

Yeah, but I'm afraid that its falling into the overly used Western cliche of the "white man's redemption story", with one or a few consciencious humans doing good things and standing up against the rest of their race. (Avatar, anyone?)

[KnightofPhoenix]

Humans appear to be more "evil" because they are the most powerful. The only reason some complain about what humans do, is because they can't do the same, not that they *wouldn't* (even if they like to think they wouldn't). Similar to what we can tell Velanna, when we make her question whether the Dalish would be different from humans if their roles were reversed.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 septembre 2010 - 04:47 .

[Khraum]

Plus, all the good humans in DA seem to have an attitude like white middle class Americans towards blacks and hispanics. Saying that they sympathize with elves but ignoring their real poverty and institutional discrimination towards them.

Modifié par Khraum, 30 septembre 2010 - 04:49 .

[marshalleck]

Khraum wrote...

Plus, all the good humans in DA seem to have an attitude like white middle class Americans towards blacks and hispanics. Saying that they sympathize with elves but ignoring their real poverty and institutional discrimination towards them.

[Anarya]

Khraum wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Besides, humanity wasn't uniformly evil in DA. There were good acts, too. That's part of what made the game so nuanced and effective.

Yeah, but I'm afraid that its falling into the overly used Western cliche of the "white man's redemption story", with one or a few consciencious humans doing good things and standing up against the rest of their race. (Avatar, anyone?)

I'm really not seeing how Origins fits into that cliche. Besides the fact that your Warden wasn't even necessarily human, you were standing up to Loghain and the Archdemon, not the human race. And you spent most of the game doing favors for people to get their military support. I don't see how this is in any way a "white man's redemption story".

And we don't even know what happens in 2 except that you fight darkspawn at one point and Qunari at another.

[Ortaya Alevli]

Khraum wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Social message, mister. It's all about the dreaded social message.

I'm not saying that DA shouldn't have a social message, or that it should make humans look good, but that it should do it in a less cliched fashion. I mean look at Battlestar Galactica (the new story). It explore issues such as terrorism, use of torture and limits of democracy, genocide and religious/ethnic conflicts, but wrapped them into a distinct storyline that didn't copy from the real world.

I know you're not saying that, and I didn't assume otherwise. "We're evil people who need to seek redemption" has more "social rating" than "We're doing perfectly well, let's keep it up" has. A person is willing to believe that he's flawless and warrants no criticism, whereas people try and give the "yes, we're aware that we have our faults and need to face them, we're not incapable of accepting criticism or even criticizing ourselves" impression. Which gives way to social messages. Reminds me of Terminator 2. Humanity is bad, self-destructive, fond of bringing its own doom upon itself, etc.

However...what I like in Dragon Age is that there's no excuse for generalizing humans in such a way. You've got Bann Vaughan and the like, but they're exceptions rather than the rule. Despite all the emphasis on "you humans are all racist" on the elves' side. Sure, you can't be a king or queen if you're an elf, but then again, you can't be one even if you're human but not of nobility.

[TotoroTori]

Khraum wrote...

I mean DA makes us seem like the real blight. We conquer, pillage, rape and in the case elves, literally bring physical pollution. Most of all, in our appetite for power and exploitation we blew up heaven and unleashed a force out to destroy everything. Sure, elves and dwarves are bad too. Zathrian cursed humans and the dwarves turned their poor into golems, but it was because of bad things we did or to fight off problems we created. I know all fantasy likes to offer some social commentary on the real world, but the whole human bashing thing is starting to get cliched. I, for one, would like a more complicated story behind how the blight really started and the DA world turn the way it is, why doesn't rely on overly used troupes like making oppressed groups look like native Americans, Jews etc and humans racist parasites.

Did I just read this? *reads again Yup I just read this...you sir are getting a Sir Winston Churchill comment...
"Never hold discussions with the monkey when the organ grinder is in the room."

Um take a good look at the people who are trying to do good and that includes Alistair and Leliana in your party!
The elves are pretty racist, if you remember in the beginning of the Dalish Origin you get the option to kill the innocent men?
The dwarves just look down at you because your from the surface..

Just because of the humans that do wrong you forget about all the humans who do try and make things better!! You see plenty of humans trying to do the right thing in DA as many as who do wrong so don't go preaching unless you the Messiah and if I remember correctly he didn't even do that!

[Khraum]

Plus, all the good humans in DA seem to have an attitude like white middle class Americans towards blacks and hispanics. Saying that they sympathize with elves, and that slavery is bad. However, few of them have ever gone into the alienage, and they seem to ignore the real poverty and institutional discrimination towards elves.

Modifié par Khraum, 30 septembre 2010 - 05:04 .

[ErichHartmann]

I'd be more impressed if you kept your arguments within the Dragon Age universe.

[Khraum]

[KLUME777]

Khraum wrote...



Plus, all the good humans in DA seem to have an attitude like white middle class Americans towards blacks and hispanics. Saying that they sympathize with elves, and that slavery is bad. However, few of them have ever gone into the alienage, and they seem to ignore the real poverty and institutional discrimination towards elves.

Stereotype.

[Yaskaleh]

Humanity in Thedas is the real blight. Darkspawns are just the extreme cases of human blight.

[errant_knight]

Every race in the DA universe is both corrupt and good. Kind of like real people. People with large populations and power just have more opportunities to behave badly.

[David Gaider]

Khraum wrote...
I mean DA makes us seem like the real blight. We conquer, pillage, rape and in the case elves, literally bring physical pollution. Most of all, in our appetite for power and exploitation we blew up heaven and unleashed a force out to destroy everything. Sure, elves and dwarves are bad too. Zathrian cursed humans and the dwarves turned their poor into golems, but it was because of bad things we did or to fight off problems we created. I know all fantasy likes to offer some social commentary on the real world, but the whole human bashing thing is starting to get cliched. I, for one, would like a more complicated story behind how the blight really started and the DA world turn the way it is, why doesn't rely on overly used troupes like making oppressed groups look like native Americans, Jews etc and humans racist parasites.

A human can be good.

Humanity as a whole is pretty screwed.

I thought that was a given. Thankfully none of our races get off easy on this front.

[marshalleck]

Why do elves excel at poverty? Hmm.