148 réponses à ce sujet

[PsyrenY]

marshalleck wrote...

Why do elves excel at poverty? Hmm.

Because they are shiftless, pointy-eared, alcoholic gits.

[The Sauce of Awesome]

David Gaider wrote...

Khraum wrote...
I mean DA makes us seem like the real blight. We conquer, pillage, rape and in the case elves, literally bring physical pollution. Most of all, in our appetite for power and exploitation we blew up heaven and unleashed a force out to destroy everything. Sure, elves and dwarves are bad too. Zathrian cursed humans and the dwarves turned their poor into golems, but it was because of bad things we did or to fight off problems we created. I know all fantasy likes to offer some social commentary on the real world, but the whole human bashing thing is starting to get cliched. I, for one, would like a more complicated story behind how the blight really started and the DA world turn the way it is, why doesn't rely on overly used troupes like making oppressed groups look like native Americans, Jews etc and humans racist parasites.

A human can be good.

Humanity as a whole is pretty screwed.

I thought that was a given. Thankfully none of our races get off easy on this front.

What Ser Gaider said.

[Russalka]

Many evils done by dwarves have very little to do with the deeds of humans. And the elves have not been in power, to show their worst.

[Khraum]

KLUME777 wrote...

Khraum wrote...



Plus, all the good humans in DA seem to have an attitude like white middle class Americans towards blacks and hispanics. Saying that they sympathize with elves, and that slavery is bad. However, few of them have ever gone into the alienage, and they seem to ignore the real poverty and institutional discrimination towards elves.

Stereotype.

I'm not trying to sound racist towards any group. But if you think about it, Cailan says he sympathizes with the elves but admits he hadn't been in the alienage that much and he is more concerned with the blight and making glorious adventures for himself through it. (He only mentions that he'll make things better for elves after the blight is finished). Lelianna also seems to think that elves are better in Orlais because nobles employ them for permanent cheap labour.

[marshalleck]

Khraum wrote...
Lelianna also seems to think that elves are better in Orlais because nobles employ them for permanent cheap labour.

Well she's right. The Denerim Alienage is pretty awful.

[Ortaya Alevli]

Khraum wrote...

I'm not trying to sound racist towards any group. But if you think about it, Cailan says he sympathizes with the elves but admits he hadn't been in the alienage that much and he is more concerned with the blight and making glorious adventures for himself through it. (He only mentions that he'll make things better for elves after the blight is finished). Lelianna also seems to think that elves are better in Orlais because nobles employ them for permanent cheap labour.

Err, one doesn't necessitate the other. You can still sympathize with elves without feeling responsible and going that extra mile.

[TheChris92]

Optimystic_X wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Why do elves excel at poverty? Hmm.

Because they are shiftless, pointy-eared, alcoholic gits.

I think Kaidan made a valid point in Mass Effect. "They're not different or special, they're jerks and saints. Just like us."

[Yaskaleh]

Humans by default are evil. Those who fail at that are just confused.

[tmp7704]

Khraum wrote...

I know all fantasy likes to offer some social commentary on the real world, but the whole human bashing thing is starting to get cliched.

Not to point out the obvious, but even on this forums you see threads asking "BioWare, i want to be really evil, gief!" and these aren't made by elves or dwarves.

If there is some messed up individuals features in the game then that's not "human bashing", rather recognition of fact some of us can act this way and not only see nothing wrong in that but revel in it. Doesn't mean all humans are like that, just like not all of them are racist no matter what some Turians may think

[shootist70]

Khraum wrote...

I mean DA makes us seem like the real blight. We conquer, pillage, rape and in the case elves, literally bring physical pollution. Most of all, in our appetite for power and exploitation we blew up heaven and unleashed a force out to destroy everything. Sure, elves and dwarves are bad too. Zathrian cursed humans and the dwarves turned their poor into golems, but it was because of bad things we did or to fight off problems we created. I know all fantasy likes to offer some social commentary on the real world, but the whole human bashing thing is starting to get cliched. I, for one, would like a more complicated story behind how the blight really started and the DA world turn the way it is, why doesn't rely on overly used troupes like making oppressed groups look like native Americans, Jews etc and humans racist parasites.

It's how fiction works these days. Has done for a while. Idealised, non-realistic portrayals of humanity are a bit of a legacy of the past. People like social grittiness in their story-telling - they like a more believable depiction of people - because that's how they tend to experience their own species. Anything else feels niaive and difficult to believe...sadly.

[LPPrince]

David Gaider wrote...

Khraum wrote...
I mean DA makes us seem like the real blight. We conquer, pillage, rape and in the case elves, literally bring physical pollution. Most of all, in our appetite for power and exploitation we blew up heaven and unleashed a force out to destroy everything. Sure, elves and dwarves are bad too. Zathrian cursed humans and the dwarves turned their poor into golems, but it was because of bad things we did or to fight off problems we created. I know all fantasy likes to offer some social commentary on the real world, but the whole human bashing thing is starting to get cliched. I, for one, would like a more complicated story behind how the blight really started and the DA world turn the way it is, why doesn't rely on overly used troupes like making oppressed groups look like native Americans, Jews etc and humans racist parasites.

A human can be good.

Humanity as a whole is pretty screwed.

I thought that was a given. Thankfully none of our races get off easy on this front.

This. And I don't think it fits a specific trope anyway, since EVERY race in the DA series has its positives and negatives. 

Honestly, I'm a little sick of people saying, "Don't use this trope, don't use that trope".

For christ's sake, EVERYTHING is a fricken trope now. The second someone does anything new, GASP! EVERYONE START CALLING IT A TROPE SO NO ONE ELSE CAN DO THE SAME THING!

[NightmarezAbound]

Khraum wrote...

I'm not trying to sound racist towards any group. But if you think about it, Cailan says he sympathizes with the elves but admits he hadn't been in the alienage that much and he is more concerned with the blight and making glorious adventures for himself through it. (He only mentions that he'll make things better for elves after the blight is finished).

 Okay relate Cailan to say.. random pick Ivanka Trump... come from money and power, famous parents...
 both may symapthize for the plight of others,.. but I doubt each would go to the slums...  they were sheltered from some things...

[Khraum]

shootist70 wrote...

Khraum wrote...

I mean DA makes us seem like the real blight. We conquer, pillage, rape and in the case elves, literally bring physical pollution. Most of all, in our appetite for power and exploitation we blew up heaven and unleashed a force out to destroy everything. Sure, elves and dwarves are bad too. Zathrian cursed humans and the dwarves turned their poor into golems, but it was because of bad things we did or to fight off problems we created. I know all fantasy likes to offer some social commentary on the real world, but the whole human bashing thing is starting to get cliched. I, for one, would like a more complicated story behind how the blight really started and the DA world turn the way it is, why doesn't rely on overly used troupes like making oppressed groups look like native Americans, Jews etc and humans racist parasites.

It's how fiction works these days. Has done for a while. Idealised, non-realistic portrayals of humanity are a bit of a legacy of the past. People like social grittiness in their story-telling - they like a more believable depiction of people - because that's how they tend to experience their own species. Anything else feels niaive and difficult to believe...sadly.

Yes, I know, but there are different methods to make social commentaries. Like why not make us the oppressed, and make elves and dwarves into the "dominant white male" (I refer only to the sterotype) image. It would makes us think about ourselves by making use live in somebody else's shoes.

[tmp7704]

Khraum wrote...

Yes, I know, but there are different methods to make social commentaries. Like why not make us the oppressed, and make elves and dwarves into the "dominant white male" (I refer only to the sterotype) image.

Because the elves are superior, dominant race in pretty much all fiction and the only thing that (usually) saves the humanity from being actively put under their heel is the elves are in vaguely defined "decline" or just too superior to bother.

DA is actually reversing the stereotype here in a way.

[shootist70]

Khraum wrote...

Yes, I know, but there are different methods to make social commentaries. Like why not make us the oppressed, and make elves and dwarves into the "dominant white male" (I refer only to the sterotype) image. It would makes us think about ourselves by making use live in somebody else's shoes.

Sure. I wouldn't mind seeing a different spin on things once in a while. LPPrince brings up an interesting thing about tropes, though. Tropes aren't necessarily bad. They're a way of keying in on audience expectation by giving them things you know they already love. There's nothing wrong with that. Unless the creator is going for the profound then they don't always need to start reinventing the wheel.
 
The only problem is when their use of a trope is cliched. In other words, the creator hasn't put enough of their own stamp on it. Personally I think DAO gets away with this ok. Although that's a matter of opinion, I guess.

Modifié par shootist70, 30 septembre 2010 - 05:59 .

[SteveGarbage]

"Why are humans always evil?"
Have you looked at humanity's real world history? We're not a very good species at being good.

Modifié par SteveGarbage, 30 septembre 2010 - 05:59 .

[Saibh]

Why are we always evil?

I guess because we have no other races to compare ourselves to. For all we know, we're the saintliest saints to ever come out out of Sainttown by standards of other races. It's also impossible for devs to make a race that is as detailed and complex as humanity. Thousands of years shape our culture--millions shape our history. A writer really can't compete with that. Human nature can be judged from many different layers from many different angles--created aliens or other races don't really have that advantage. They tend to have only two or three facets to them. As such, it's difficult to make a race that can do evil things and be as influential as humanity without making them one-dimensional.

EDIT: Also, it's hard to look at humanity as being the poor, oppressed species and not think that we're making ourselves seem overly sympathetic. As I said, the oppressors culture will never be as detailed as ours, and even if it were, they're not human and it'd be hard to understand them; they'd end up being one-dimensional villains.

Modifié par Saibh, 30 septembre 2010 - 06:04 .

[tmp7704]

Saibh wrote...

As such, it's difficult to make a race that can do evil things and be as influential as humanity without making them one-dimensional.

It's not so bad really; for example you can look at Turians in Mass Effect -- they run entire gamut from heroic, misguided, good, bad, funny, idiots and plain ****s, it's as varied as humans really.

I think the OP's point is really more a result of our own (human) fixation with ourselves, we tend to pay attention mostly to ourselves and think it's all about us, and very much ignore intricaties of others, especially if said intricacies don't match a sweeping generalization we've made in our minds.

[PsyrenY]

LPPrince wrote...

Honestly, I'm a little sick of people saying, "Don't use this trope, don't use that trope".

For christ's sake, EVERYTHING is a fricken trope now. The second someone does anything new, GASP! EVERYONE START CALLING IT A TROPE SO NO ONE ELSE CAN DO THE SAME THING!

[Saibh]

tmp7704 wrote...

Saibh wrote...

As such, it's difficult to make a race that can do evil things and be as influential as humanity without making them one-dimensional.

It's not so bad really; for example you can look at Turians in Mass Effect -- they run entire gamut from heroic, misguided, good, bad, funny, idiots and plain ****s, it's as varied as humans really.

I think the OP's point is really more a result of our own (human) fixation with ourselves, we tend to pay attention mostly to ourselves and think it's all about us, and very much ignore intricaties of others, especially if said intricacies don't match a sweeping generalization we've made in our minds.

Oh, of course, yes. I'm just saying that humanity's defining trait is usually "Uh...we have no defining trait". As Mordin says, you can make a fair judgment on what a turian, salarian, krogan, and so on will be like. Humans aren't like that. A writer can't make a culture as multifaceted as humanity is.

I think where BioWare excels in racemaking is to make them similar to humans in variance as people. But as a culture...

[LPPrince]

Optimystic_X wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Honestly, I'm a little sick of people saying, "Don't use this trope, don't use that trope".

For christ's sake, EVERYTHING is a fricken trope now. The second someone does anything new, GASP! EVERYONE START CALLING IT A TROPE SO NO ONE ELSE CAN DO THE SAME THING!

I feel like Schindler after he liberated 1K+ Jews.

[Marzillius]

Khraum wrote...

I mean DA makes us seem like the real blight. We conquer, pillage, rape and in the case elves, literally bring physical pollution. Most of all, in our appetite for power and exploitation we blew up heaven and unleashed a force out to destroy everything. Sure, elves and dwarves are bad too. Zathrian cursed humans and the dwarves turned their poor into golems, but it was because of bad things we did or to fight off problems we created. I know all fantasy likes to offer some social commentary on the real world, but the whole human bashing thing is starting to get cliched. I, for one, would like a more complicated story behind how the blight really started and the DA world turn the way it is, why doesn't rely on overly used troupes like making oppressed groups look like native Americans, Jews etc and humans racist parasites.

Because humans are like that in real life? We are making other species go extinct (capital > life, apparently), we are making war on each other over petty differences, we are racist. We're pretty much ****ed up. I'm glad that Dragon Age and Mass Effect shows that.

[tmp7704]

Saibh wrote...

Oh, of course, yes. I'm just saying that humanity's defining trait is usually "Uh...we have no defining trait". As Mordin says, you can make a fair judgment on what a turian, salarian, krogan, and so on will be like. Humans aren't like that. A writer can't make a culture as multifaceted as humanity is.

Yeah, humans are The Mario or otherwise  average (oh look, tropes) but i personally find it rather annoying laziness on part of the writer, and side-effect of designing everything else with humans as the baseline. Mordin's quote is especially funny because he's dead wrong -- based even on just what we get to experience in game we don't actually have a way to judge "what a turian will be like" any more than it comes to judging humans... but the plot has to be justified somehow, after all.

(what i mean is, if a trait of any other race is supposed to be "X than human" then by the same token you can have "defining trait" of humanity be "reverse of X compared to that other race". I.e. if elves are supposed to be "prettier than humans" then humans can be "uglier than elves", but here our ego kicks in and doesn't allow us to accept such simplification when it comes to ourselves)

Modifié par tmp7704, 30 septembre 2010 - 06:31 .

[Marzillius]

tmp7704 wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Oh, of course, yes. I'm just saying that humanity's defining trait is usually "Uh...we have no defining trait". As Mordin says, you can make a fair judgment on what a turian, salarian, krogan, and so on will be like. Humans aren't like that. A writer can't make a culture as multifaceted as humanity is.

Yeah, humans are The Mario or otherwise  average (oh look, tropes) but i personally find it rather annoying laziness on part of the writer, and side-effect of designing everything else with humans as the baseline. Mordin's quote is especially funny because he's dead wrong -- based even on just what we get to experience in game we don't actually have a way to judge "what a turian will be like" any more than it comes to judging humans... but the plot has to be justified somehow, after all.

I could judge Turians very easily. They are usually suspicious or hostile (the Turian Councilor seems to be the pinnacle of Turian acting towards Shepard).

[tmp7704]

Marzillius wrote...

I could judge Turians very easily. They are usually suspicious or hostile (the Turian Councilor seems to be the pinnacle of Turian acting towards Shepard).

Except the ones who aren't and who are just as numerous. This is very much what i meant when i spoke of our tendency to ignore individuals who don't match our presumptuous patterns...