148 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

I could do without social messages in a fantasy game. But I guess that's what dark fantasy is about. Anyway. you could as well ask why the chantry are bigots. There is a reason why discussions about the game often lead to rl references. Because games always contain sort of rl critizism. I am sorry but if the whole chantry business isn't a pure critizism of monotheism (and not only christianity) then I don't know.

If you think about it, we have stories about all kinds of monsters, but in rl there is only one being acting monstrous at times, and that's humans. Elves and dwarves are stereotypical myths, so that's why they are kinda predictable. Humans are just like in rl, unpredictable.

[Felfenix]

The dwarves and elves seemed just as evil as the humans. Look at all the misdirected suffering the Dalish Keeper spread. Look at how the dwarves treat each other. Don't even get me started on the Qunari.

[Reaverwind]

Felfenix wrote...

The dwarves and elves seemed just as evil as the humans. Look at all the misdirected suffering the Dalish Keeper spread. Look at how the dwarves treat each other. Don't even get me started on the Qunari.

Very true. But I guess the Dalish, Dwarves and Qunari all get a free pass because they don't have the Chantry.

[Nerevar-as]

Reaverwind wrote...

Felfenix wrote...

The dwarves and elves seemed just as evil as the humans. Look at all the misdirected suffering the Dalish Keeper spread. Look at how the dwarves treat each other. Don't even get me started on the Qunari.

Very true. But I guess the Dalish, Dwarves and Qunari all get a free pass because they don't have the Chantry.

Well, the Qun has parts as bad and worse than the Chantry, It takes a coup to give the dwarves a chance to survival as they care more about caste than a viable system that turns the tide against the DS, and elves are too few and scattered to have big scale screw ups.

There was that theory from Vetinari that everybody was evil. Too radical IMHO, but race is not an issue in that.

[LobselVith8]

Reaverwind wrote...

Felfenix wrote...

The dwarves and elves seemed just as evil as the humans. Look at all the misdirected suffering the Dalish Keeper spread. Look at how the dwarves treat each other. Don't even get me started on the Qunari.

Very true. But I guess the Dalish, Dwarves and Qunari all get a free pass because they don't have the Chantry.

You mean they don't have armored and armed drug addicts watching over children?

[Russalka]

Dr. wonderful wrote...

Oh yes they did, around a 2 thousand years or so before the game.

I would doubt that they were the models of utmost good and purity though. No one knows for sure.

[tmp7704]

Khraum wrote...

Yes, but humans seem to be distinctively bad. Dwarves do a lot of bad things to each other, but they do not conquer and oppress other races.

One of possible game endings has the dwarves perform raids on the surface to capture humans and then turn them into golems.
 

This is completely unlike humans, who seem to be the only real racist group. (Elves are racist towards humans because humans treated them badly, and they weren't racist to dwarves).

Elves can be racist even towards their own -- visiting the Dalish as city elf can get you called names and such pleasantries, since you're considered very much a "second rate" elf.

srsly, when even the lead writer says in this thread all species got portrayed with their own share of warts there's no point in trying to cry humans are being especially picked on.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

Khraum wrote...

Yes, but humans seem to be distinctively bad. Dwarves do a lot of bad things to each other, but they do not conquer and oppress other races.

One of possible game endings has the dwarves perform raids on the surface to capture humans and then turn them into golems.
 

A better examples would be the massacre of the Cadash Thaig, where dwarves massacred the locals and the elven refugees there.

[AlexXIV]

Felfenix wrote...

The dwarves and elves seemed just as evil as the humans. Look at all the misdirected suffering the Dalish Keeper spread. Look at how the dwarves treat each other. Don't even get me started on the Qunari.

You judge all elves because of one who acts out of hatred and for revenge because humans killed his family. Dwarves however, well I don't like dwarves in general so I can't really argue about that. Anyhow, no matter how you judge them most of them stick to their rules. Humans though seem to have different rules in any country. And even in one country they break their own rules wantonly. Just saying Howe, Vaughn, Loghain, etc. I'd agree that dwarves are not much different than humans, but elves in DA:O at least only act 'badly' if some hideous crime has been done to them FIRST. And the only two that come to my mind are Zathrian and Velanna, well aside from my city elf main character who kills Vaughn any time.

[Nerevar-as]

You can start the dalish elf Origin murdering three guys for getting lost...

[AlexXIV]

Nerevar-as wrote...

You can start the dalish elf Origin murdering three guys for getting lost...

That's why you don't judge a whole race by action of a few  But you're right, I forgot those but then again I never killed them since it was pointless unless you want to load the guilt for human revenge on your shoulders.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 30 septembre 2010 - 11:20 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Saibh wrote...

Why are we always evil?

I guess because we have no other races to compare ourselves to.

This.

The only reason humans are "always evil" is because we are the only people on the planet. Animals sure don't talk. Plants don't.

I am sick and tired of everything being called social commentary just because the main race has flaws.

[saMoorai]

If Humanity was Evil wouldnt we need something to compare it to for to be Evil?

[shootist70]

Bryy_Miller wrote...


I am sick and tired of everything being called social commentary just because the main race has flaws.

Then stick your head in a box and never read, watch or play anything ever again. Well, apart from kids TV. You might be ok with that if you just can't do 'social commentary' . It's pretty much what fiction was created for, and has been doing ever since - it's how we make sense of ourselves.

[AlexXIV]

saMOOrai182 wrote...

If Humanity was Evil wouldnt we need something to compare it to for to be Evil?

Well good and evil are terms humans invented. So the next question would be, does it make sense that humans invented the definition for good and evil if they are all evil?

[ME2IsAwesomelyAwesome]

OMG , A non-Human .

[Sir JK]

Who knows what evil lie in the hearts of men...



Seriously though, the humans of Thedas aren't evil. Just human, with all the flaws and problems that come with it. An imperfect people that are inclined to choose the easy path and that doesn't look ahead to see what problems this will cause. Controlled by our fears and emotions. But also a people very much capable of choosing the fair, the just, the compassionate and the good paths. To streamline them all as evil is a gross simplification.

[Saraphial]

Felfenix wrote...

The dwarves and elves seemed just as evil as the humans. Look at all the misdirected suffering the Dalish Keeper spread. Look at how the dwarves treat each other. Don't even get me started on the Qunari.

I think your right that elves and dwarves have the same amount of potential as humans to be evil, but the qunari are on a whole different level. More than anything they remind me of Thomas More's book, Utopia. No money, no real emotion, no self elevation. In reality, nothing can be completely "good" because there is a give and take between peace and individuality. Technically, within qunari society they have achieved peace between each other at least at the cost of individual expression, while humanity is exactly the opposite.  You can either have a peaceful world of robots, or a warring world of individuals. 

[Bryy_Miller]

AlexXIV wrote...

saMOOrai182 wrote...

If Humanity was Evil wouldnt we need something to compare it to for to be Evil?

Well good and evil are terms humans invented. So the next question would be, does it make sense that humans invented the definition for good and evil if they are all evil?

Good and evil are terms, yes, but even if they didn't exist, we would still inherently know what was right and wrong just from common knowledge of the situation.

[Merced256]

Khraum wrote...

Plus, all the good humans in DA seem to have an attitude like white middle class Americans towards blacks and hispanics. Saying that they sympathize with elves but ignoring their real poverty and institutional discrimination towards them.

Oh boy, well as a member of the slandered party i can really only offer you this; get a job.

[Sherbet Lemon]

What an interesting thread, and such fun!

Well, the notion of human virtue and morality is certainly a philosophical issue that has plagued mankind for a very long time.  If you look at Western philosophy, Aristotle’s Niomachean Ethics is famous for that very discussion.  We are obsessed with what is “moral” and what is “good.”  I suppose you could make the
argument that these questions are inherent in our very nature, or maybe you can't...I don't know. Argh...

That being said, humans have committed atrocity after atrocity, and looking for something to compare it to feels fruitless to me.  Just because humanity does not  have a comparable "intelligent" (and I use this VERY loosely) species, excuses can not be made in reference to our actions. What we’ve done to each other and will continue to do to each other is still quite injust.  If humanity as a whole (in the game of Dragon Age) commits horrendous
acts then it is only a reflection of the reality that we know.  If we ignore the bad, we are subject to repeat it (to paraphrase a famous quote). 

As far as the notion of “tropes” is concerned, there is very little, i.e. nothing in literature that hasn’t been written about and so everything is atrope.  If you look at Joseph Campbell’swork on “the Hero’s Journey” from his book Hero with a Thousand Faces, you’ll seehis monomyth can be applied to many famous tales written in literature.  The same basic cycle repeats, though creative authors find new ways to present it so it doesn’t feel
repetitive.  So, yeah.

Sorry for nattering on. I tend to be long-winded and boring and annoying.    In short, we’ve done some very bad stuff andwe can’t change it. Might as well acknowledge it and try not to repeat it. Gah.

EDIT: GOLLY!  Epic formatting fail!  So sorry and how embarassing...

Modifié par Village Idiot, 01 octobre 2010 - 03:11 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

Something definitely has happened here. I just can't quite make it out.

[Sherbet Lemon]

Isabelle Mortello wrote...

Village idiot is an idiot lololololololololololololol

You got that right. I'm aptly named!