234 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

There are several threads about Cerberus already, but here's one thing I'd like to point out in an extra thread:

The term "terrorist" describes someone who uses acts of violence and destruction to inspire fear in a population (thus the term), trying to indimidate a poltical group or a nation into acceding to its demands. For this, acts of terrorism have to be high-profile. The more publicity, the better, and the targets are usually selected in order to maximize publicity. It's also important that the public comes to know which group is responsible.

Now, tell me, please, how that applies to Cerberus? Cerberus is a secret organization that does everything to cover up its actions and in spite of widespread influence behind the scenes, is almost unknown to the public. The "terrorism" term is stamped on them for purely political purposes. In fact, they're more of a conspiracy, acting behind the scenes to get influence unchecked by the Alliance's institutions.

So, people, know what you're talking about and stop rehashing the t-word as if it actually meant anything in this context. Cerberus may be an evil conspiracy with pretensions to galactic domination, or a regular black-ops organization necessary to protect humanity, or anything in between. But they're definitely not terrorists. That's Council propaganda and just plain wrong.

[Onyx Jaguar]

I agree

[philiposophy]

Personally I thought the mention of them as terrorists in ME2 was odd, especially when Jacob said, "they've been called terrorists, and with good reason."

[fongiel24]

I've been guilty of using the label "terrorist" on Cerberus before, but I'm forced to agree. Many of Cerberus' operations cause "terror" but the "terror" is a byproduct of their methods and not the actual intent. Cerberus is probably best defined as a privately funded, extra-governmental, direct action group. Their preference is to work behind the scenes and below the radar.

[Zulu_DFA]

It's all Drew Karpyshyn's fault. Not the real one but the one in the game, who writes military-historical novels Tom Clancy-style.

[Barquiel]

Cerberus is not that secret. Their logo is everywhere (uniforms, ships, space stations)

I think the assassination of Pope Clement XVI created fear (terror)
They have a political/ideological goal
They deliberately target non-combatants.

= terrorists

[Zulu_DFA]

Barquiel wrote...

Cerberus is not that secret. Their logo is everywhere (uniforms, ships, space stations)

I think the assassination of Pope Clement XVI created fear (terror)
They have a political/ideological goal
They deliberately target non-combatants.

= terrorists

The logo is of Cord-Hislop, Inc.

Assassinations is daily bread for Shadow Ops divisions. That's what they exist for: do illegal stuff by illegal means to advance interests of political bodies but let them say it never happened.

[Phaedon]

'Terrorist' might not be the perfect term, but it's the best I can think of. 'Paramilitary' just doesn't cut it. Organizations labeled as 'terrorist', are criminal because they support their cause (which tends to be stupid) by illegal means (killind people etc.),even though they don't necessarily want to terrorise people.

[Aradace]

Ieldra2 wrote...

There are several threads about Cerberus already, but here's one thing I'd like to point out in an extra thread:

The term "terrorist" describes someone who uses acts of violence and destruction to inspire fear in a population (thus the term), trying to indimidate a poltical group or a nation into acceding to its demands. For this, acts of terrorism have to be high-profile. The more publicity, the better, and the targets are usually selected in order to maximize publicity. It's also important that the public comes to know which group is responsible.

Now, tell me, please, how that applies to Cerberus? Cerberus is a secret organization that does everything to cover up its actions and in spite of widespread influence behind the scenes, is almost unknown to the public. The "terrorism" term is stamped on them for purely political purposes. In fact, they're more of a conspiracy, acting behind the scenes to get influence unchecked by the Alliance's institutions.

So, people, know what you're talking about and stop rehashing the t-word as if it actually meant anything in this context. Cerberus may be an evil conspiracy with pretensions to galactic domination, or a regular black-ops organization necessary to protect humanity, or anything in between. But they're definitely not terrorists. That's Council propaganda and just plain wrong.

First of all, I completely agree.  Secondly, you have to realize what the Alliance is trying to do here.  The "masses" as a whole, dont realize the "real" definition of the word "terrorist".  So, in order to build more backing for themselves, they brand any organization that directly or indirectly opposes them as "terrorists" so as to get the mass populous behind the Alliance.  So yea, I agree, it's more of a conspiracy than anything.  Especially after seeing the end of Kasumi's Loyalty mission where you get the data from her lover's gray box that apparently implicates the Alliance in some something.  Which would mean, any attention the Alliance can shift from them and onto someone like say, Cerberus, is better for the Alliance and gives them more time to "clean up" after themselves for anything they may have done.  Not sure that made alot of sense just now, it's early and I havent finished my coffee yet lol

[Asheer_Khan]

Perhaps it's time to redirect thread like this to FBI and ask them for opinion if cerberus is terrorist group or not.

[Zulu_DFA]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Perhaps it's time to redirect thread like this to FBI and ask them for opinion if cerberus is terrorist group or not.

Lol, you said "FBI"! Now you're on the FBI watch list... Oh, crap, now I'm too!

[Onyx Jaguar]

That's not really the FBI's job

I mean it can be, but only within the borders. And usually the ATF will handle something like this as usually these guys collect arms.

The best one to ask would be the Central Intellegence Agency.  That is a good place to find information.  (Hell, an amazing place if you also would tie that to demographics as they have extensive records)

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 01 octobre 2010 - 10:25 .

[LuxDragon]

Personally, I think Cerberus is more like a group of insurgents.

Insurgents, by definition, are people who rebels against authority or leadership. in this case, the Council and if necessary, the Alliance, in order to secure human dominance.

[Ieldra]

Aradace wrote...
Secondly, you have to realize what the Alliance is trying to do here.  The "masses" as a whole, dont realize the "real" definition of the word "terrorist".  So, in order to build more backing for themselves, they brand any organization that directly or indirectly opposes them as "terrorists" so as to get the mass populous behind the Alliance.

I'm fully aware of that. I was trying to cut through the political bullsh*t and make it less likely for people to buy into it, different opinions of Cerberus in general notwithstanding.

[Ieldra]

LuxDragon wrote...
Personally, I think Cerberus is more like a group of insurgents.
Insurgents, by definition, are people who rebels against authority or leadership. in this case, the Council and if necessary, the Alliance, in order to secure human dominance.

Yes, but that's another category of classification. Most real-world terrorists are also insurgents. Cerberus is an insurgent group with the structure and modus operandi of a conspiracy. "Conspiracy/terrorism" refers to the methods used, "insurgency" to the goals.

[Zulu_DFA]

Ieldra2 wrote...

LuxDragon wrote...
Personally, I think Cerberus is more like a group of insurgents.
Insurgents, by definition, are people who rebels against authority or leadership. in this case, the Council and if necessary, the Alliance, in order to secure human dominance.

Yes, but that's another category of classification. Most real-world terrorists are also insurgents. Cerberus is an insurgent group with the structure and modus operandi of a conspiracy. "Conspiracy/terrorism" refers to the methods used, "insurgency" to the goals.

I can't see much insurrection going against the Alliance. TIM never even tries to convert and convince Shepard that the Alliance is bad or needs any reformation if only to purge it of alien-sympathizing elements... Instead, TIM says that the Alliance do their things and Cerberus do theirs.

[Dean_the_Young]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Perhaps it's time to redirect thread like this to FBI and ask them for opinion if cerberus is terrorist group or not.

From the FBI website itself, and an (older) document and definition...


There is no single, universally accepted definition of terrorism. Terrorism is defined in the Code of Federal Regulations as
“...the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property
to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any
segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.” (28
C.F.R. Section 0.85)



The FBI further
describes terrorism as either domestic or international, depending on
the origin, base, and objectives of the terrorist organization. For the
purpose of this report, the FBI uses the following definitions of
terrorism:


l Domestic
terrorism refers to activities that involve acts dangerous to human
life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or
of any state; appear to be intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian
population; to influence the policy of a government by mass destruction,
assassination, or kidnapping; and occur primarily within the
territorial jurisdiction of the United States. [18 U.S.C. § 2331(5)]

• International
  terrorism involves violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that
  are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or any state,
  or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the
  jurisdiction of the United States or any state. These acts appear to be
  intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; influence the
  policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or affect the
  conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping
  and occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the United
  States or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which
  they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate or
  coerce, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek
  asylum. [18 U.S.C. § 2331(1)]

THE FBI DIVIDES TERRORIST-RELATED ACTIVITY INTO TWO CATEGORIES:

• A terrorist incident is
  a violent act or an act dangerous to human life, in violation of the
  criminal laws of the United States, or of any state, to intimidate or
  coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in
  furtherance of political or social objectives.
• A terrorism prevention is
  a documented instance in which a violent act by a known or suspected
  terrorist group or individual with the means and a proven propensity for
  violence is successfully interdicted through investigative activity.

//////////

[Dean_the_Young]

Phaedon wrote...

'Terrorist' might not be the perfect term, but it's the best I can think of. 'Paramilitary' just doesn't cut it. Organizations labeled as 'terrorist', are criminal because they support their cause (which tends to be stupid) by illegal means (killind people etc.),even though they don't necessarily want to terrorise people.

Cabal.

[*]a clique (often secret) that seeks power usually through intrigue [*]conspire: engage in plotting or enter into a conspiracy, swear together; "They conspired to overthrow the government"[*]conspiracy: a plot to carry out some harmful or illegal act (especially a political plot)
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn[/list]

[Nightwriter]

It's probably because they're radical extremists who launch attacks on quarian ships and kill popes and torture children and cause disasters in the name of supremacist goals or something. I don't know.

Honestly, who cares what they're called or what the correct definition is? Jack doesn't fit the correct medical definition of "psychopath" in any way shape or form, yet that was her title in her FFTL vid. Words tend to get away from us.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 01 octobre 2010 - 11:16 .

[razerdoh]

[Monochrome Wench]

They aren't Terrorists as they aren't trying to use acts of terror to achieve their goals. Act of terror being deliberate attacks on civilians. What Cerberus does do however is completely ignore the collatoral damage from their actions. If Civilians get hurt, oops, oh well, better luck next time.

[Asheer_Khan]

- "Freedom fighters"?



I don't recall any mention that Earth is Turian (or any other species) colony.



- Fight against Council "oppression"?



HELLO!!!, no one forcing Alliance and humanity to remain within Council structures.

If they are soooooo oppressive then humans can leave back on home planet (heck even seal hades MR)...



I seriously hoped after ME 1 that at least ME series will be free from typical for SF world "humanity UBER ALLES" paranoia... but apparently i expected too much...



Great job Bioware, really great job...

[Nightwriter]

Cerberus and Cerberus supporters don't seem to care how bad the things they do are. Why do you care what people call Cerberus as a consequence of those actions?