234 réponses à ce sujet

[AntiChri5]

I wouldnt class Miranda or Leng in there. Well, maybe Leng.

The book does call them fanatics though, and yeah of course you want to think well of them, you are only a spiffy uniform and a few war crimes away from being one.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

In some ways I trust TIM more than Miranda. Which kinda says something because I don't really trust TIM.

[DeathScepter]

First off they are not terrorists organization because they don't have dinos or using those giant stone heads on Easter Island as weapons.

[lost lupus]

pish pash

it is both terrorist group
and at the same time a rouge black op's group

the only thing that matters is where your standing

i mean come on they have blokes/sheila's whoose job it is
to move in and eliminate people who the organisation feel should be "removed"
they are often corrupt carry out illegal actions and kill innocent people
not to mention have covert teams that collect intel illegaly

see the council supports state funded terrorists like the SPECTRE's and STG teams

Modifié par lost lupus, 02 octobre 2010 - 05:47 .

[Arijharn]

DeathScepter wrote...

First off they are not terrorists organization because they don't have dinos or using those giant stone heads on Easter Island as weapons.

...What?

[lovgreno]

Arijharn wrote...

DeathScepter wrote...

First off they are not terrorists organization because they don't have dinos or using those giant stone heads on Easter Island as weapons.

...What?

Perhaps he was comparing Cerberus with the classic cartoon villain? I think that is going a bit too far considering that the ME universe is not black and white like that. Then again the standard Cerberus project did remind me of Cobra....

[Dean_the_Young]

HazelrahFiver wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Not quite. A group of conspirators can carry out a conspiracy without a single goal, and any group can carry out such a conspiracy: terrorists, NGO's, governments, black agencies, etc.

Terrorist groups are public political actors, in the sense they want to be known, make their objectives known publicly (and target the public), even though they resort to secrecy as defense. Terrorism is public politics by terrorism.

Except a group, such as Cerberus, cannot be a conspiracy.

Sure it can.

  Unless of course, it's unknown if it truly exists, and then the distractions and coverups using the Cerberus name could be a conspiracy.  The actual group however, cannot be a conspiracy.  English demands that it is not so.  It'd be the same as saying that this ice cream is a conspiracy.  While I do agree that they aren't really terrorists... nothing else fits, and nothing is as close since Cerberus does in fact attack and destroy Alliance and Council objectives.  They may not brag about it, but they do.

English, as in the the people?

The language does not. A conspiracy can be used as a noun: you are a part of a conspiracy, for example, refers not only to the action but the group. It can be an adjective as well: this is a conspiracy group, in the same sense that in the phrasing 'a school group,' school is an adjective that can serve as a noun in a separate context.

In the context of searching for an adjective of what best defines, describing Cerberus as a conspiracy group may feel more sensible, but overall the who group and its intent can be summarized as a conspiracy.

It's more so that they are against the primary sources of government, as I said.  Both human and galatic, they work against them, and therefore are going to be labeled terrorists with ease since they produce violent actions.  I'm talking about in-game stuff here.

Which is completely irrelevant to whether they are terrorist or not. It isn't violence that marks terrorism as a distinct category, it's the open and public intent to force the masses.

I agree with you entirely on this.  I was kinding of hoping that Jack would still verbally want to act out against TIM and not buy Miranda's pandering if you take her along on Jack's Loyalty Mission.

That TIM knew that children were being abducted and experimented on isn't in doubt. What he wouldn't know, and what the game implies Teltin wasn't telling, was what those experiments were.

Seeing how many times someone can blink in a minute is an experiment. Seeing how much they scream if you break X number of bones is an experiment. Obviously, despite both being experiments there is a marked difference between the two.

[HazelrahFiver]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Which is completely irrelevant to whether they are terrorist or not. It isn't violence that marks terrorism as a distinct category, it's the open and public intent to force the masses.

How in the world is it not relevant??  The game itself labels Cerberus as terrorists, and seemingly for the exact reasons I am mentioning.  Do you think the background behind Cerberus being labeled terrorists in the codex is because the Alliance threw a dart at a dictionary?  It's much more believable that the Alliance chose the word purposefully due to their separation, anti-government ideals, and violent actions.

[Arijharn]

HazelrahFiver wrote...
How in the world is it not relevant??  The game itself labels Cerberus as terrorists, and seemingly for the exact reasons I am mentioning.  Do you think the background behind Cerberus being labeled terrorists in the codex is because the Alliance threw a dart at a dictionary?  It's much more believable that the Alliance chose the word purposefully due to their separation, anti-government ideals, and violent actions.

What anti-government ideals? I don't think this would be the first time (nor last time) a government has mis-represented the facts tbh.

[Asheer_Khan]

I really wonder why all pro cerberus people here so eagerly dismiss possibility that tim was well aware what's going on on Pragia, INCLUDING ALL DETAILS?

Even a half brain monkey would start to pondering why suddenly facility start to request more and more childrens (it's not like biotic gifted human kids are selling on pack at batarian slave markets) and even IF Teltin heads would try to hid truth before tim someone from mid or regular med personel soon or later would inform him about events in labs.

And seriously... holovids really hard to be counted as stone written evidences in age of VI systems.
Simple voice sample and holo record from "peaceful" times was all what team sended to base in order to check what's going on there needed.
And before you again "dismiss that claims" take under notice that even today is possible to create movies where President Obama can meet President John F Kennedy and everything will be look perfectly real (remember how Forest Gump meet Kennedy?, and that's pretty old movie but everything looks absolutely natural... EVEN Kennedy's reply to Hanks talk about looking for bathroom) so don't tell me that in age of AI and VI systems is impossible to create fake holo vids.

Furthermore, isn't this strange that those holovids remain in easy to find places?
Logic says that not a single trace of this facility should remain intact taking under consideration subject of "experiments" performed there in case if someone would land on Pragia... Instead entire facility looks like prepared TO BE FOUND... so either swept team do really lousy work OR everything was very carefully prepared as "timmy is clean like white underwear after wash in bleach" PR show

For m Jack was more valuable source of information than those "holo-evidence" of tim's "absolute innocence.", she pointed pretty clear that what she remember was quite different than "official" version and i have NO reason after seeing entire station to NOT believe her.

But of course i known that what i post here will be "dismissed' because this stand in contradictory to perfect cotton clean picture of tim and cerberus as 'galaxy saviors"."The Reapers are coming so let's forget that on his hands are blood of many childrens (i wish we could learn how many childrens really died there) who died in "name of humanity advancement".

IF this is true face of humanity then apparently we learn NOTHING from nightmares of Aushwitz, Birkenau, Buchenwald, Sobibor, Sachsenhausen and other death camps and still made this same mistakes... what in matter of fact is sad.

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 02 octobre 2010 - 01:51 .

[Dean_the_Young]

HazelrahFiver wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Which is completely irrelevant to whether they are terrorist or not. It isn't violence that marks terrorism as a distinct category, it's the open and public intent to force the masses.

How in the world is it not relevant??  The game itself labels Cerberus as terrorists, and seemingly for the exact reasons I am mentioning.  Do you think the background behind Cerberus being labeled terrorists in the codex is because the Alliance threw a dart at a dictionary?  It's much more believable that the Alliance chose the word purposefully due to their separation, anti-government ideals, and violent actions.

In the game, the ones labeling Cerberus as terrorists are Alliance and the Council, both governments with their own biases and interests, and even the Codex is written from the perspective of an in-universe observer... and so reflects the Alliance and Council classification. 'The game' (the Council, the Alliance, the codex: the same people who label Cerberus as terrorists) also says that Saren was the mastermind of the Geth attack on the Citadel, and we know that isn't true.

What we have not seen from Cerberus, up to this point, is actions that would actually legitimatly classify Cerberus as terrorists conducting terrorism. Nothing in Cerberus's operation history, from what's shown in ME1, ME2, the novels, and even from the Shadow Broker's logs, really qualifies. About the only times Cerberus actions, let alone involvement, are known is when they are caught. Whereas successful terrorism is big and noticable as intended, successful Cerberus actions are never even known to the galactic community.


Out of game, this could simply be resolved as the writers simply wanting to go with a loaded buzzword to make the association more unpleasant for people who respond to such things, without either knowing what the label really means or failing to actually show it. There are a number of times they really don't focus on accuracy: we never see Mordin labeled as 'the War Criminal' throughout the game even though Grunt was advertised as 'the savage' for much less actions, and no emphasis is given on the nature of Aria's mini-dictatorship on Omega. Mass Effect does not always say what it reflects, or reflects what it says.

However, I dislike simply attributing to writer failure, and so go with the most logical in-universe explanation... which, quite reasonably, is that the Council and Alliance label Cerberus terrorist because it acts against them in an unlawful maneer, not because they are actually terrorists.

Which is actually quite similar to how it happens in the real world.

[Arijharn]

You mean other than the fact that she's a psychopath Asheer?



You know, I'm not to sure if I do believe TIM's word the the T, but there is no way I'm going to believe the words from a drug crazed psychopathic mass-murderer biotic who has spent the last x amount of time cryogenically frozen either and who; I might add, purposely dropped space stations on moons.



Lets say however that you are right; lets say that TIM forsaw all of this and purposely put false leads to attempt to throw us off. That would require an amazing amount of fore-thought... in fact, I would have to say that it would require TIM to be psychic, since Aresh and the Blood Pack have been there for at least a year.



I'm not going to really debate you on the fact that the holovid's are in easy to find places because you know what, it could be placed there for any number of reasons, not least of all because it's a game and they want to keep the story flowing without making us explore every single nook and cranny in the joint.



Honestly, I don't even think TIM needs us to believe every word he ever says or even to fully trust him, just that he needs us to fight the Collectors (and the Reapers).



'Even a half brain monkey would start to pondering why suddenly facility start to request more and more childrens (it's not like biotic gifted human kids are selling on pack at batarian slave markets) and even IF Teltin heads would try to hid truth before tim someone from mid or regular med personel soon or later would inform him about events in labs.'



Really? Where can I find out what the Batarians do sell because you seem to know their markets pretty damn awesome despite the fact that no mention of their business transactions (bar the fact that they make certain types) are well understood. Also, why would anyone from low-med level personnel even have cause to notify TIM? They're just grunts basically or do you honestly believe regular troopers on the battlefield of someplace like Afganistan has ready access to the supreme commander of allied forces?



They probably know that the Illusive Man exists, but not how to contact him.

[Dean_the_Young]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

I really wonder why all pro cerberus people here so eagerly dismiss possibility that tim was well aware what's going on on Pragia, INCLUDING ALL DETAILS?

Even a half brain monkey would start to pondering why suddenly facility start to request more and more childrens (it's not like biotic gifted human kids are selling on pack at batarian slave markets) and even IF Teltin heads would try to hid truth before tim someone from mid or regular med personel soon or later would inform him about events in labs.

The people in on it would have no reason to tattle to TIM. They're already involved.

Teltin's projects were concerned that the number of requests would bring bad notice. Jack's escape prevented anything coming from that, however.

And seriously... holovids really hard to be counted as stone written evidences in age of VI systems.
Simple voice sample and holo record from "peaceful" times was all what team sended to base in order to check what's going on there needed.
And before you again "dismiss that claims" take under notice that even today is possible to create movies where President Obama can meet President John F Kennedy and everything will be look perfectly real (remember how Forest Gump meet Kennedy?, and that's pretty old movie but everything looks absolutely natural... EVEN Kennedy's reply to Hanks talk about looking for bathroom) so don't tell me that in age of AI and VI systems is impossible to create fake holo vids.

Yes, Khan.

Cerberus, having suffered a project meltdown, decided to abandon the base for decade(s)... but not before leaving fabricated incriminating evidence of their existence and actions that would have little relevance to anyone but a handful of people on the off chance they decided to return here.

Presumably with the intent that it would deceive them and change their minds.

Excellent plan!

Furthermore, isn't this strange that those holovids remain in easy to find places?
Logic says that not a single trace of this facility should remain intact taking under consideration subject of "experiments" performed there in case if someone would land on Pragia... Instead entire facility looks like prepared TO BE FOUND... so either swept team do really lousy work OR everything was very carefully prepared as "timmy is clean like white underwear after wash in bleach" PR show

Because a video game was going to randomly make us comb through rouble to discover the dark, forgotten secrets?

I mean, it's not like there were scavangers or occupiers in the base cleaning things up, trying to find things of use.

For m Jack was more valuable source of information than those "holo-evidence" of tim's "absolute innocence.", she pointed pretty clear that what she remember was quite different than "official" version and i have NO reason after seeing entire station to NOT believe her.

Jack.

The person who's entire loyalty mission, on multiple levels, demonstrated that she never knew what happened within the station besides what effected her previously.

The person who thought she was the only reason she was able to escape.

The person who didn't know her own window was a one-way mirror.

The person who thought all the other kids hated her, despised her.

That Jack? The one who admitted herself, in her own loyalty mission, that a lot of what she thought was wrong?

But of course i known that what i post here will be "dismissed' because this stand in contradictory to perfect cotton clean picture of tim and cerberus as 'galaxy saviors"."The Reapers are coming so let's forget that on his hands are blood of many childrens (i wish we could learn how many childrens really died there) who died in "name of humanity advancement".

IF this is true face of humanity then apparently we learn NOTHING from nightmares of Aushwitz, Birkenau, Buchenwald, Sobibor, Sachsenhausen and other death camps and still made this same mistakes... what in matter of fact is sad.

Go call people repeats of meaningless genocidal maniacs in another thread. You obviously can't keep historical perspective in this one.

I'd point out the irony of hating TIM for the blood on his hands despite Jack's own freely admitted past actions and history, but I have a feeling the irony would be lost on you. The same goes for Samara, Mordin, and Thane.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 02 octobre 2010 - 02:08 .

[Arijharn]

Asheer, I'm not sure whether I should take you seriously or not and I admit that to be a very confusing thing. I'm certainly not trying to belittle your arguments pre-emptively but I feel it would help if I knew where you were coming from. How old are you?



If I come across as a bit of a cynic or whatever it's because I'm 27yrs old. I'm certainly not the wisest person on the face of the planet but I feel I have a pretty good grasp of how the world works. Cerberus aren't paragons of virtue (and I use the word paragon as to what it actually means, a stand-out example of something and not the one who chooses all the blue responses) but to uniformly paint everything they ever do as bad is just mis-placed. I get the feeling that you don't even like the fact that they brought your Shephard back to life, preferring (or maybe even role-playing?) that someone else did it.

[Asheer_Khan]

Arijharn wrote...

Asheer, I'm not sure whether I should take you seriously or not and I admit that to be a very confusing thing. I'm certainly not trying to belittle your arguments pre-emptively but I feel it would help if I knew where you were coming from. How old are you?

If I come across as a bit of a cynic or whatever it's because I'm 27yrs old. I'm certainly not the wisest person on the face of the planet but I feel I have a pretty good grasp of how the world works. Cerberus aren't paragons of virtue (and I use the word paragon as to what it actually means, a stand-out example of something and not the one who chooses all the blue responses) but to uniformly paint everything they ever do as bad is just mis-placed. I get the feeling that you don't even like the fact that they brought your Shephard back to life, preferring (or maybe even role-playing?) that someone else did it.

I was born in 1972 in country who witnessed final stage of "commie paradise" (Poland to be clear) so DONT YOU DARE to tell me that i have no idea how this world work.

I saw people beaten on the streets by Militia (commie equivalent of Police) during anti goverment demonstations just because many of us dare to say in off is in off, empty stores without any perspective that tomorow ther will be fresh bread to purchase...

And Dean...

I ask you to stop reply on my posts as i won't reply at your's.
That's all what i have to say in that matter.

EDIT: By the way i really "admire" <_< way how cerberus supporters think.

On other side Jack is fantastic most powerful human biotic... but in moment when she dare to criticize cerberus beloved guru she become worthless trash.... amazing... really amazing way of thinking... so typical for ****** Sapiens Superior.<_<

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 02 octobre 2010 - 03:29 .

[HazelrahFiver]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
In the game, the ones labeling Cerberus as terrorists are Alliance and the Council, both governments with their own biases and interests, and even the Codex is written from the perspective of an in-universe observer... and so reflects the Alliance and Council classification. 'The game' (the Council, the Alliance, the codex: the same people who label Cerberus as terrorists) also says that Saren was the mastermind of the Geth attack on the Citadel, and we know that isn't true.

That's exactly what I've been saying!  That's what I said from the start!  What I had said was that in the game, from the two primary sources of government's point of view, Cerberus are terrorists.  Why do you insist on arguing by reinstating what I keep saying? ; ;

Unrelated to the above, but on topic, sorta - It becomes pretty damn hard to fully blame Jack for her actions and her mis-remembering the events of her past.  She was a child that was kidnapped and experimented on.  For that concept alone, Cerberus should be shut down entirely, wiped out of existence.  Call me short sighted if you will, but that sounds like the most unnacceptable action someone could take (outside of also raping that child.  Thankfully we are not ever even hinted that this happened.  I probably would have quit the game and had to come back later to finish.)  My point is that while Jack has done horrible, horrible things since her escape, she cannot be to blame.  The unfortunate part is that this also doesn't mean she should be left free to engage in her havoc, but hopefully we will see Shepard find the answer in stopping her without killing her.  S/he may have already (this is assuming Jack will even be in ME3 btw.)  Who is to blame is Cerberus, obviously.  Excuses can be given about how TIM or others in charge may have not known fully what was going on, but that is bullcrap.  Convenience stores can hardly get through a day without their superiors asking for full updates, and if false information is given people lose their jobs (real life reference.)  There is no way that TIM was not aware of what was going on, which means he is also to blame, and is a evil, disgusting son of a *****.

Modifié par HazelrahFiver, 02 octobre 2010 - 04:11 .

[Dean_the_Young]

HazelrahFiver wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
In the game, the ones labeling Cerberus as terrorists are Alliance and the Council, both governments with their own biases and interests, and even the Codex is written from the perspective of an in-universe observer... and so reflects the Alliance and Council classification. 'The game' (the Council, the Alliance, the codex: the same people who label Cerberus as terrorists) also says that Saren was the mastermind of the Geth attack on the Citadel, and we know that isn't true.

That's exactly what I've been saying!  That's what I said from the start!  What I had said was that in the game, from the two primary sources of government's point of view, Cerberus are terrorists.  Why do you insist on arguing by reinstating what I keep saying? ; ;

No it wasn't. And calm down.

You were arguing that the 'official' designation settled the case. I just said the opposite, that their official designation was wrong.

Or, at least, I'm fairly sure your position was opposed to mine. If not, consider it resolved: Cerberus isn't a real terrorist group until we hear of actual terrorism, regardless what the Council or Alliance labels it.

Unrelated to the above, but on topic, sorta - It becomes pretty damn hard to fully blame Jack for her actions and her mis-remembering the events of her past. 

Edit: never mind, not you.

I don't blame her for mis-remembering her events at all. I just don't take her word as the only absolute.

I generally hold her in the same sense as I hold Cerberus responsible for their actions. Cerberus only exists out of a justified fear of aliens, and much of Jack's actions are rooted in a justified anger and fear of people as well.

She was a child that was kidnapped and experimented on.  For that concept alone, Cerberus should be shut down entirely, wiped out of existence.  Call me short sighted if you will, but that sounds like the most unnacceptable action someone could take (outside of also raping that child.  Thankfully we are not ever even hinted that this happened.  I probably would have quit the game and had to come back later to finish.)  My point is that while Jack has done horrible, horrible things since her escape, she cannot be to blame.  The unfortunate part is that this also doesn't mean she should be left free to engage in her havoc, but hopefully we will see Shepard find the answer in stopping her without killing her.  S/he may have already (this is assuming Jack will even be in ME3 btw.)  Who is to blame is Cerberus, obviously.  Excuses can be given about how TIM or others in charge may have not known fully what was going on, but that is bullcrap.  Convenience stores can hardly get through a day without their superiors asking for full updates, and if false information is given people lose their jobs (real life reference.)  There is no way that TIM was not aware of what was going on, which means he is also to blame, and is a evil, disgusting son of a *****.

All this really amounts to is that wrongdoing is unforgivable unless you have a sympathetic basis. If Jack's actions can be pardoned simply because of her past, it must hold true to others.

So, we simply need to find out if Cerberus and it's actors had some grave, shocking event in their past that would justify such actions. Some sort of uncalled for atrocity, which harmed and shook them into fear and a desperate need to protect themselves and others from some alien menace.


Oh, wait-

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 02 octobre 2010 - 04:27 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Asheer_Khan wrote...
I was born in 1972 in country who witnessed final stage of "commie paradise" (Poland to be clear) so DONT YOU DARE to tell me that i have no idea how this world work.

I saw people beaten on the streets by Militia (commie equivalent of Police) during anti goverment demonstations just because many of us dare to say in off is in off, empty stores without any perspective that tomorow ther will be fresh bread to purchase...

Hurgan, is that you?

And Dean...

I ask you to stop reply on my posts as i won't reply at your's.
That's all what i have to say in that matter.

And yet you just replied.

EDIT: By the way i really "admire" <_< way how cerberus supporters think.

On other side Jack is fantastic most powerful human biotic... but in moment when she dare to criticize cerberus beloved guru she become worthless trash.... amazing... really amazing way of thinking... so typical for ****** Sapiens Superior.<_<

And here you go again, in a context that really applies to me since I was the last (and only recent) person to address her.

[lovgreno]

It's hard to know much about Cerberus as they fear being exposed (yet always are sooner or later anyway due to bad security). But they do leave a lot of things like Jacks childhood behind. The implications are unpleasant and the T word is at least something that should be seriously considered. But as always you can twist the limited information into something that suits your own opinions with a little imagination.

[Teknor]

Of course they are terrorists. They deliberately exposed people to ezero just the get some biotic kids causing deaths and cancer in the process.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Shandepared wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

I wouldnt class Miranda or Leng in there. Well, maybe Leng.

Nobody who meets the Illusive Man in person, especially in his private space station, is not among his inner circle of most trusted agents. Miranda is with him in person at the start of ME2, in the intro. She's part of that inner circle.

I bet your Shepard is a candidate to be a member of that inner circle by ME3, Shand.

[mosor]

Teknor wrote...

Of course they are terrorists. They deliberately exposed people to ezero just the get some biotic kids causing deaths and cancer in the process.

The US government did radiation experiments on their own soldiers, tested the effects of plutonium on the human body by injecting it into their own civilians, released whooping cough bacteria outside Tampa Bay as a biological warefare experiment and a host of other psychological and torture experiments. That's just the bloody tip of the iceburg. The experimentation doesn't make you a terrorist. Terrorists commit crimes publically for political gain.