234 réponses à ce sujet

[Elite Midget]

It wasen't proven that it wasen't the case. TIM can deny anything that goes wrong on the many, and by many I mean practically everything Cerberus does and gets caught for, on rogue cells and tests he didn't know about even though he's paying the researchers and giving them the manpower they need.



If TIM was innocent in any of the rogue cells than why hasen't he stepped up security, sent out investigation teams, or threatened to pull the plug on their funding? He has done none of these despite so many cells 'going rogue' under his watch. Logically it means he knows what goes down and doesn't go into the details because he can them claim ignorance and deny that they were sanctioned.



Just like the Council denys the reapers.

[Cryo84]

No one says they are innocent angels, just that they have the right idea.

[Elite Midget]

Many right ideas are not always the 'best' ideas.



Sacrificing ones humanity to get to the top and to combat machines is never a 'good' idea but TIM doesn't seem to care. How much of him is even organic anymore?

[Cryo84]

Now you're just being paranoid.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Elite Midget wrote...

It wasen't proven that it wasen't the case. TIM can deny anything that goes wrong on the many, and by many I mean practically everything Cerberus does and gets caught for, on rogue cells and tests he didn't know about even though he's paying the researchers and giving them the manpower they need.

If TIM was innocent in any of the rogue cells than why hasen't he stepped up security, sent out investigation teams, or threatened to pull the plug on their funding? He has done none of these despite so many cells 'going rogue' under his watch. Logically it means he knows what goes down and doesn't go into the details because he can them claim ignorance and deny that they were sanctioned.

Just like the Council denys the reapers.

I point again to the missle launch mission.  It's irrefutable proof that you can do something dastardly and it not be TIM's choice, fault, or even foreknowledge.  It was your choice and Cerberus would be blamed for it regardless of the one you make.  TIM has no idea which choice you'd make down there and has no control over that choice.  It's a perfect illustration of the extent of his power.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 04 octobre 2010 - 01:45 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Elite Midget wrote...

It wasen't proven that it wasen't the case. TIM can deny anything that goes wrong on the many, and by many I mean practically everything Cerberus does and gets caught for, on rogue cells and tests he didn't know about even though he's paying the researchers and giving them the manpower they need.

Except TIM has never taken that position he's never to blame.

There are, to date, two and only known 'rogue' cells that went behind his back, and those are only rogue in that they went beyond what they were intended to do. The first is Teltin, early on in Cerberus when Cerberus was still Alliance. The second is Asher, who didn't so much go rogue as had an eleventh hour breakthrough right before TIM was about to pull the plug, and didn't yet give TIM a brief (which was to go with the presentation).

If TIM was innocent in any of the rogue cells than why hasen't he stepped up security, sent out investigation teams, or threatened to pull the plug on their funding? He has done none of these despite so many cells 'going rogue' under his watch. Logically it means he knows what goes down and doesn't go into the details because he can them claim ignorance and deny that they were sanctioned.

What makes you think he never did, after Pragia? It's not like rogue cells are an endemic problem either.

Asher did what he did because the Illusive Man was about to pull the plug on the funding for his project. And what he did was find a breakthrough, put it together, and then have it fall apart before the Illusive Man could review it.

Just like the Council denys the reapers.

Except while the Council doesn't act despite proof of error provided to them, people expect the Illusive Man to act despite a lack of proof provided to him.

[HTTP 404]

I agree with OP, the taliban arn't terrorists

[mosor]

Elite Midget wrote...

Many right ideas are not always the 'best' ideas.

Sacrificing ones humanity to get to the top and to combat machines is never a 'good' idea but TIM doesn't seem to care. How much of him is even organic anymore?

Bah. Beating the reapers is always a good idea. Morality will always play second fiddle to survival in the real world. TIM doesn't like taking chances when it comes to survival of humanity in general, and will take every opportunity, moral, or not, to increase those chances.  Not playing every card possible to prevent extinction just for the sake of morality is just plain foolish.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Jack: "The cheerleader won't admit what Cerberus did to me was wrong"



Miranda: "It wasn't Cerberus... not really. But clearly you were a mistake."

[Arijharn]

A drowning man will grab at anything to keep himself afloat.

[Sajuro]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Jack: "The cheerleader won't admit what Cerberus did to me was wrong"

Miranda: "It wasn't Cerberus... not really. But clearly you were a mistake."

I always just chalked that up to Miranda being a loyalist ****
The Illusive Man at least okayed the very act of taking small children for the purpose of enhancing their biotic potential unless he is so inept he had absolutely no idea what they were doing.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Taking kids with biotic potential to a place where their abilities can be enhanced is okay in and of itself. How they were taken though would technically be up to the cell leader that did it. And if all he says to TIM is "We got some candidates ready for you, sir" then that's all TIM would know.



Again though, this is not to say Cerberus is innocent btw, it's just another possbility given the facts I've encountered.

[StarcloudSWG]

And it's not just that. TIM *must* have grown suspicious when the Teltin facility kept shipping kids in *and the budget for housekeeping never went up*. Meaning *something* was causing losses among the people in the facility, and it was unlikely to be staff that was dying or being sent away.

Then there were the Husk, Rachni, and who knows what those little nasty things were experiments in ME 1. And the Thresher Maw cell on Akuze.

Top that with the Overlord project, and EDI's comment that the Illusive Man keeps personal oversight of *every* project he runs, and his track record does not look good at all.

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 04 octobre 2010 - 05:54 .

[Elite Midget]

You can't prove that TIM is completely innocent just as I can't prove he's fully involved. All we have to work with is that TIM is a manipulative man who does many heinous things to get things done. I find it hard to believe that such a smart and manipulative man could be ignorant to the fact that he has had so many rogue cells running amoke and that he didn't know things were happening. I mean, how does rounding up kids, without their parents knowledgeing by faking their deaths, and then taking them to a secret location, outside the law, and conducting experiments on them not unethical? If TIM cared he would never have let that happen. Ergo, TIM doesn't care and thus he allows them to happen untill they become more trouble than they're worth.

Now don't get me started on the whole the ends justify the means because if you know our history than you would know that isn't true. I wont name a certian infamous man in history, because his name still strikes hatred in many, but he restored his country from nothing at the cost of millions of lives, a world war, and the mass murder of innocents.

Many said innocents were put under experiments 'VERY" similiar that Cerberus was caught doing in ME1 and ME2. Such as having subjects fight eachother, injected with poisonous substances(Maybe to develop a resistence drug or see how much of the poison humans can take), ordering Rachnii, thorians, and the sort to kill humans/aliens to see how effective they would be as shock troopers, leading innocent Alliance soldiers into a Threasher Maw trap to study the Threasher Maw as well as cover up their operations.

Also, you can't believe Miranda's word when she was argueing with Jack. She was covering Cerberus' rear and I doubt TIM ever told her about the Biotic experiment that occured. Which is why she's in denial and at a loss of words. It's been proven in ME2 that Miranda doesn't know everything that TIM has done, such as Horizon or Jacks torture and experimentation, yet she protects Cerberus because she thought of them as her own. Not to mention she thought she was above being a pawn TIM can use.

Again, the technology in IIlos is still there and outside what the Reapers can control. While the Collector Base is fully in Reaper control up untill the end of ME2. Even than, the Reapers will have a copy of every piece of technology on the Collector Base anyways.

[Sajuro]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Taking kids with biotic potential to a place where their abilities can be enhanced is okay in and of itself. How they were taken though would technically be up to the cell leader that did it. And if all he says to TIM is "We got some candidates ready for you, sir" then that's all TIM would know.

Again though, this is not to say Cerberus is innocent btw, it's just another possbility given the facts I've encountered.

I would hope that he would at least oversee how they got the canidates. There reaches a point where TIM doesn't run Cerberus but rather is a drunk with deep pockets, or he knows all of the abhorrent **** his organization pulls and delibrately stays in the dark so he can bang a matriarch without feeling guilty about the fact his minions are torturing small children so they will be able to move things with their minds.

[Elite Midget]

You forgot the sanctioned kidnapping and faking the deaths of said children to get the parents out of the way.

[Sajuro]

Elite Midget wrote...

You forgot the sanctioned kidnapping and faking the deaths of said children to get the parents out of the way.

Didn't include it because I know that someone would probably pop in, snip it down to that quote and say "oh you can't prove that TIM knew, you just hate humanity" or something like that, but yes telling mothers their infants had body mutilatingly bad siezures when they just went in for checkups, and not even letting them see the corpse (because it didn't exist)

Modifié par Sajuro, 04 octobre 2010 - 06:06 .

[Nightwriter]

Oh I think TIM knew about Subject Zero. At the very, very least, I think he knew that the whole point of the Teltin facility was to operate on Jack. Project TRAPDOOR seems to suggest so.

[Arijharn]

I don't think that anybody has argued that TIM is a 'saint' or never has done any bad things, it's just another thing altogether to call them terrorists. He's not out there burning country flags in effigy after all, nor has he really terrorized a particular group or something.



As to pragia etc, sure it's wrong (and I've had my own thoughts about this that I think have been posted elsewhere) but I don't think it could be argued that it's 'terrorism.'

[Elite Midget]

Well, you could consider his actions politically motivated. He wants Humanity to be the sole leader of the Galaxy no matter the cost. That seems pretty political to me.

[Arijharn]

Elite Midget wrote...

Well, you could consider his actions politically motivated. He wants Humanity to be the sole leader of the Galaxy no matter the cost. That seems pretty political to me.

I disagree, I just think he doesn't want humanity to be a client race of another, like what the Volus are with the Turian's. I don't believe he's necessarily about military dominance or even a form of isolationism either like what the Batarian's are now, he just want humanity to have the ability to govern itself (and be able to effectively use force if another species wishes to take that away from us).

I'm interested in how you came about the thought that he wants humanity to be the sole leader of the galaxy, because to me he only ever seemed to want human sovereignty remain human sovereignty and works to ensure that humanity can defend itself against others. I say this because the organisation is called Cerberus, which is as you're aware Hades' watchdog', he works in the shadows as opposed to being some highly public and visible character like Admiral. Hackett who would be ideally placed in my opinion to strike at the hearts of human sentiment and push for 'humanity rule.' He also hasn't been involved with any plots to destabilize galactic civilisation either (such as the assassination of a Councillor) to push this further (and if his organisation can assassinate a pope, I see no reason why Cerberus can't also do something like this).

TIM is not the messiah and he most certainly is a very naughty boy, but that doesn't mean that Cerberus is a terrorist organisation.

I'm also not sure if his actions can be defined as being 'politically motivated' if he doesn't gain from those actions politically. TIM didn't release a broadcast throughout known space saying that under his command Cerberus has abducted children for their Teltin facility and would only release them if the Alliance would release political prisoner X... and this is ignoring the fact that at this timeline, Cerberus would have been under Alliance control.

[HazelrahFiver]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Now, would you not dodge the question?

The question wasn't aimed at me >.>

Regardless, I wouldn't consider my response doding the question at all.  I disagree that religious terrorism is largely political.  It may be formed that way, particularly by the media and the governments 'involved', but don't think for a moment that anything going on in Israel, or being brought over to the U.S., is anything but one belief wanting to erase another.  Politics have little to nothing to do with it.  It's all about God.  I'm not trying to start a new topic/thread here, the question wasn't posed at me in the first place.  I'm simply saying that it is propaganda bs that as much of the conflict that is occuring is being slapped with political agendas.

More so, it's not 'dodging the question' because it has little to do with the question.  I was just making a clarification.  While Cerberus' actions are mostly political, I still don't believe them actual terrorists.  They are just an organization.  A horrible one that has done horrible things, but that happens all the time.  However, the game considers them terrorists because you come from an Alliance/Council pov.  Of course, we already agreed on this, or at least something close enough to it that I would hope no further argument is required.

[Elite Midget]

But wouldn't his actions still be politicial in that it's meant to push humanity up the food chain in the Universe? Didn't he say that when Cerberus benefits than so does humanity? Wouldn't it work the other way around as well?

As for my thoughts on TIM... I get that he wants Humanity on top but the way Cerberus ignores Aliens, unless they can be used for his agenda, gives off the feeling that he doesn't want aliens to ever be a threat to humanity's dominance. Thus the only way this would work is if humanity is the sole leader and Aliens are only there to serve the human agenda.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 04 octobre 2010 - 07:33 .

[Nightwriter]

Arijharn wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Well, you could consider his actions politically motivated. He wants Humanity to be the sole leader of the Galaxy no matter the cost. That seems pretty political to me.

I disagree, I just think he doesn't want humanity to be a client race of another, like what the Volus are with the Turian's. I don't believe he's necessarily about military dominance or even a form of isolationism either like what the Batarian's are now, he just want humanity to have the ability to govern itself (and be able to effectively use force if another species wishes to take that away from us).

I'm interested in how you came about the thought that he wants humanity to be the sole leader of the galaxy, because to me he only ever seemed to want human sovereignty remain human sovereignty and works to ensure that humanity can defend itself against others. I say this because the organisation is called Cerberus, which is as you're aware Hades' watchdog', he works in the shadows as opposed to being some highly public and visible character like Admiral. Hackett who would be ideally placed in my opinion to strike at the hearts of human sentiment and push for 'humanity rule.' He also hasn't been involved with any plots to destabilize galactic civilisation either (such as the assassination of a Councillor) to push this further (and if his organisation can assassinate a pope, I see no reason why Cerberus can't also do something like this).

TIM is not the messiah and he most certainly is a very naughty boy, but that doesn't mean that Cerberus is a terrorist organisation.

I'm also not sure if his actions can be defined as being 'politically motivated' if he doesn't gain from those actions politically. TIM didn't release a broadcast throughout known space saying that under his command Cerberus has abducted children for their Teltin facility and would only release them if the Alliance would release political prisoner X... and this is ignoring the fact that at this timeline, Cerberus would have been under Alliance control.

TIM: "That base could've assured human dominance in the galaxy! Against the Reapers and beyond!"

It's things like this that make me think he wants humanity to be the sole leader of the galaxy. I suppose it could be interpreted different ways, but that's always the impression I got.