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Cerberus - not a terrorist group, more a conspiracy


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#201
Schneidend

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Mass Effect doesn't factor in the advanced technologies of the ME universe. It still acts like ground armies are influential!


Ground armies are influential if you want to preserve the infrastructure, civilian populace, and ecosystem of a planet. Controlling the space over the planet's surface may be a military victory, but sieging the planet with spaceships doesn't truly conquer it. The codex and the Cerberus Daily News articles about Gurvag and Taetrus all cearly illustrate the importance of ground armies.

#202
Dean_the_Young

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Sajuro wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Mass Effect doesn't factor in the advanced technologies of the ME universe. It still acts like ground armies are influential!

That said, I'm not sure what your point is referring to. The Normandy and Shepard, by the scale, size, and nature of their investment and mission, are stated exceptions to how Cerberus normally run things. That a lot of Cerberus spooks like to act all knowing does not, however, mean that they are. Which was Jacob's own implication.

Actually if cities put up mass effect shield to deter orbital bombardment and GARDIAN systems to shoot down missiles, then a ground force would be needed to walk through the shield and disable the city's protection at the very least so the orbiting ships can rain down hell on the enemy.

That's what out-of-universe logic suggests, but it's never supported in-universe. Everyone treats the Rachni and Krogan as threats for their birth rates, not for their infrastructure.

Even in-universe, there are increasingly more ways around any ground-based kinetic barriers: stealth ships like the Normandy, for example, commandoes to sabatoge generators, parachuting bombs through, or simply seiging the barriers from extreme distance.

Shouldn't the Illusive man have more then a vague idea about what his cells are doing? I doubt bugging facilities and having reports sent back to him from a reliable source would cost much in term's of Cerberus' budget, so if he doesn't take measures to monitor the cells it is like giving a small child scissors and telling them to get the candy upstairs as fast as possible, then acting suprised when they tripped on the stairs and end up getting their necks ventillated by a pair of scissors.

It depends on what you consider a 'vague' idea. Raw research data, no. That's really not any higher-leadership's role: not only is it a time sink meant to be avoided in the first place by reports, it's also usually beyond technical skills of the overseer to really comprehend what dry data might be saying. Consider the case in the Cold War, where the highly-censored topic of nuclear weapons was once allowed to be published because the author simply described it as the inner workings of a star, and the censors didn't know enough to tell the difference.

They send him regular reports at intervals. He looks them over. If he has questions, he asks for more, and if that doesn't suffice even the actual data logs themselves. Which is what he was doing at Pragia prior to Jack's breakout. To say there is no monitoring is silly, because that's exactly what we saw. The problem is that the monitoring system in Pragia convinced itself to lie to him, while the disaster of Overlord was a case of happening too quickly.

Cerberus is not a no-monitoring group. It's a loose-oversight group: it gives great leeway to its groups, for better and for worse, and part of that worse is that it takes longer to find and stop abuses.

And part of the better is that it's really impossible to have tight surveilance inside a covert organization.

#203
Dean_the_Young

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Schneidend wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Mass Effect doesn't factor in the advanced technologies of the ME universe. It still acts like ground armies are influential!


Ground armies are influential if you want to preserve the infrastructure, civilian populace, and ecosystem of a planet. Controlling the space over the planet's surface may be a military victory, but sieging the planet with spaceships doesn't truly conquer it. The codex and the Cerberus Daily News articles about Gurvag and Taetrus all cearly illustrate the importance of ground armies.

Yeah... something tells me that the Council really didn't care about Tuchanka or the Rachni home worlds too much, or that the Krogan or Reaper-influenced Rachni cared about property damage in return.

Just a feeling, you know?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 octobre 2010 - 10:45 .


#204
Kaylord

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It is really difficult to accuse Cerberus of terrorism, or even brand the organisation as criminal:

At some point in the game, you have a intensive discussion with Miranda. She manages to falsify every charge you put up against Cerberus.

- Torturing biotic potential children? -> rogue facility (supported by your own findings at Pragia)

- Enslaving rachni? -> abandoned once they discovered they are not jsut mindless drones of the rachni

- Thorians, Husks? -> non-feeling, non-sentient, attempt to create expendable shocktroops

So far the discussion with Miranda.

Remains the incident with Admiral Kahoku in ME1. Murder, yes. Poisong needle, no torture. So, probably in self-defense? Apparently, Cerberus was Alliance and then went rogue. We don´t know the reasons. But we know that there is a certain grey box in the posession of Goto with a lot of apparently dirty/criminal secrets about the Alliance. My conclusion: It seemed like Cerberus activities were of Alliance origin. So, Alliance and Cerberus black ops seem to be largely the same. The remaining Alliance black ops probably wanted Cerberus removed; permanently. Under these circumstances, it seems almost logical that Cerberus had to silence Kahoku and his troops. Maybe even Hoku was a vehicle for the Alliance black ops to make Hoku hunt and kill any Cerberus member under false pretenses?

From discussion with Vasir in LotSB we realize, Cerberus has the same "at all cost" mentality which is predominant in SPECTRE, an thus, the citadel council.

All in all; the world of ME is not as black and white as many players believe here in these forums. The hints are already there, and it may be, that in the end, Shepard may as well turn out to be the only genuinely ethic force in the known galaxy. Or not...

#205
lovgreno

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Kaylord wrote...
All in all; the world of ME is not as black and white as many players believe here in these forums. The hints are already there, and it may be, that in the end, Shepard may as well turn out to be the only genuinely ethic force in the known galaxy. Or not...

Quite true, it's a interesting fact that most adversaries, batarian terrorists considers themselves to be freedom fighters for example, considers themselves heroes. Especialy Cerberus are a example of something with good intentions but often questionable results and methods. To say that Cerberus are evil or good is to make it too easy for ourselves. Their potential good and bad consequences on the other hand should be considered. After all they are just humans with high ideals that clouds their judgments. No one can be the genuinely ethic force unless you see the world in black and white and I don't think Shepard does.

And Miranda by the way, have a lot of interesting points about Cerberus methods and goals but we should also remember that her job is to be Cerberus spin doctor on the Normandy. Her and other peoples opinions about Cerberus should be considered relevant but not a objective truth.

Modifié par lovgreno, 05 octobre 2010 - 11:38 .


#206
Kaylord

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lovgreno wrote...

...
And Miranda by the way, have a lot of interesting points about Cerberus methods and goals but we should also remember that her job is to be Cerberus spin doctor on the Normandy. Her and other peoples opinions about Cerberus should be considered relevant but not a objective truth.


We have prove of the Pragia facility that it went rogue. The same holds true for Overlord, even though from TIMs comments after mission I gather that he would have endorsed the experiment, anyway.

Concerning the thorians, it may be a lie. In ME1 you could intercept some messages from the alliance company about delivery of thorians. This opens up the thorian planets. So, Cerberus was buying thorians from that company on Feros, fully aware that those are tortured and killed humans. Miranda would have lied in that aspect.

Concerning the husks, I don´t remember any interpretable facts from ME1.

If you play anti-Cerberus, Miranda joins your cause and gives TIM her resignation. This may point towards Cerberus being more unethical as Miranda pretended initially.
Of course, the whole "chip in your head" issue in the beginning also shows a lot of real black in a white world...

I guess Bioware is trying to hold the balance here so that the final verdict on Cerberus can be done in ME3.

#207
lovgreno

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Those are good points Kaylord but it still requires us to trust TIMmys and Cerberus word and they have always used lies and half thruths to hide themselves (often very innefective but that's not the point I suppose).



It may be complicated to see Cerberus actions from many points of wievs but it is also what makes it a interesting challenge.

#208
Asheer_Khan

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I wonder what would happened for tim's image among his followers when during one of the future updates in SB files would appear that he was absolute well aware about events on Pragia from beginning to childrens rebelion and shut down whole facility (very unlikely but possible)... but it's as well very possible "AH YES... Shadow Broker files" answer which will end discussion for them.

#209
lovgreno

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We all see what we want to see Asheer.

#210
Asheer_Khan

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lovgreno wrote...

We all see what we want to see Asheer.


Yes..., i known...:mellow:

#211
Kaylord

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lovgreno wrote...

Those are good points Kaylord but it still requires us to trust TIMmys and Cerberus word and they have always used lies and half thruths to hide themselves (often very innefective but that's not the point I suppose).

It may be complicated to see Cerberus actions from many points of wievs but it is also what makes it a interesting challenge.


I agree. But then again; many things also come from a strict "need to know" policy of TIM towards Shepard.
- In the beginning, TIM sends you to investigate even though TIM already suspects the Collectors behind it. He certainly knows the ship which attacked Shepard as Collector ship. He also knows the Collectors wanted Shepards dead body.
- Then, TIM presents Horizon willingly as a bait for both Alliance and Collectors. He refuses to alert the Alliance once communication went silent. So he willingly sacrifices the colonists there. But then, the Collectors would have attacked some other colony, anyway (Shepard points this out in his discussion with Liara if you do LotSB after Horizon).
- TIM lures Shepard on the collector ship. This is not a crime, but at least a severe breach of trust.
- TIM doesn´t mention the derelict reaper until after. Again, this is not a crime, but at least a severe breach of trust.

This not necessarily qualifies them as terrorist per se. They could be "just" anybodies unethical secret service or even army high command, who knows that leading a war means also having to sacrifice people.

#212
Nightwriter

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Asheer_Khan wrote...

I wonder what would happened for tim's image among his followers when during one of the future updates in SB files would appear that he was absolute well aware about events on Pragia from beginning to childrens rebelion and shut down whole facility (very unlikely but possible)... but it's as well very possible "AH YES... Shadow Broker files" answer which will end discussion for them.


You mean, among his forum followers here?

I doubt it would change anything. A lot of the more extreme supporters don't seem to care a whole lot about things like tortured children.

It would also do nothing to change their "Cerberus is necessary for survival, survival > morality" arguments.

Basically, TIM could slaughter a child in front of them and they'd say the only way it would compel them to action is if slaughtering that child endangered the survival of galactic civilization.

#213
mosor

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Nightwriter wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

I wonder what would happened for tim's image among his followers when during one of the future updates in SB files would appear that he was absolute well aware about events on Pragia from beginning to childrens rebelion and shut down whole facility (very unlikely but possible)... but it's as well very possible "AH YES... Shadow Broker files" answer which will end discussion for them.


You mean, among his forum followers here?

I doubt it would change anything. A lot of the more extreme supporters don't seem to care a whole lot about things like tortured children.

It would also do nothing to change their "Cerberus is necessary for survival, survival > morality" arguments.

Basically, TIM could slaughter a child in front of them and they'd say the only way it would compel them to action is if slaughtering that child endangered the survival of galactic civilization.


On the other hand, TIM could cure cancer, and foster galactic peace and the haters will still say he's a monster. He's a morally gray character with both virtues and vices. He isn't one dementional. Support of TIM usually stems if you want to see a strong humanity and the hate is usually by people who want weaker humanity  within a strong council. Personally, I can support TIM and his ruthlessness as long as he doesn't do  these things for the lulz of it.

Modifié par mosor, 05 octobre 2010 - 01:42 .


#214
Nightwriter

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How dare you. I object. I would not say that.

I would say he is a monster who has cured cancer and fostered galactic peace.

See how fair I am?

#215
mosor

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Nightwriter wrote...

How dare you. I object. I would not say that.

I would say he is a monster who has cured cancer and fostered galactic peace.

See how fair I am?


Extremely. There may be a place for you yet in the new galactic empire of man.

#216
Elite Midget

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TIM is a monster...



It's just convient that when something in Cerberus goes wrong TIM is somehow innocent and Miranda covers his rear even though he has lied to her multiple times throughout ME2.



I will give TIM credit though.



He sure knows how to lie and make Renegade Shepards believe that he isn't as bad as he really is.

#217
lovgreno

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mosor wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

How dare you. I object. I would not say that.

I would say he is a monster who has cured cancer and fostered galactic peace.

See how fair I am?


Extremely. There may be a place for you yet in the new galactic empire of man.

Or in a turian dungeon. Pipe dreams of small men like TIMmy of dominating everything to get a false sense of self esteem usualy ends like that you know.

#218
Sajuro

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lovgreno wrote...

We all see what we want to see Asheer.

TIM's a real nowhere man, sitting in his nowhere land, making all his nowhere plans for nobody (I wish)

#219
lovgreno

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Kaylord wrote...
This not necessarily qualifies them as terrorist per se. They could be "just" anybodies unethical secret service or even army high command, who knows that leading a war means also having to sacrifice people.

It depends on who you ask, TIMmy certanly thinks he is a hero for doing what he thinks is the only way forward. Shepard and Miranda doubts if his plans are wise but does the only thing they can at the moment and follow him and hope it does more good than harm. TIMmy has never made any attempt to hide that he will not hesitate to treat everyone, even allies, however he think is necesary for what he believes is the greater good in the long run. But I think he would prefer to treat Shep and Miri well and gain their trust if that is possible, it is much more effective and I do think he truly likes them both.

I think TIMmy would be the first one to admit that he can not be trusted to not betray anyone and that he will use methods some may define as terrorism if necesary.

#220
Sajuro

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lovgreno wrote...

mosor wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

How dare you. I object. I would not say that.

I would say he is a monster who has cured cancer and fostered galactic peace.

See how fair I am?


Extremely. There may be a place for you yet in the new galactic empire of man.

Or in a turian dungeon. Pipe dreams of small men like TIMmy of dominating everything to get a false sense of self esteem usualy ends like that you know.

I just hope no one assassinates him instead of locking him up with a Krogan named Big Uvenk. TIM is bad, but if he died he'd be a martyr and martyrs are worse... unless he died in a shameful way :whistle:

#221
Zulu_DFA

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Sajuro wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

mosor wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

How dare you. I object. I would not say that.

I would say he is a monster who has cured cancer and fostered galactic peace.

See how fair I am?


Extremely. There may be a place for you yet in the new galactic empire of man.

Or in a turian dungeon. Pipe dreams of small men like TIMmy of dominating everything to get a false sense of self esteem usualy ends like that you know.

I just hope no one assassinates him instead of locking him up with a Krogan named Big Uvenk. TIM is bad, but if he died he'd be a martyr and martyrs are worse... unless he died in a shameful way :whistle:


For all those who keep up any hopes of "settling the score" with TIM in any way in ME3, I'd suggest to go by the link below and think how much potential BioWare sees in TIM's character for possible continuation of the ME series beyond "Commander Shepard's story"...

http://comics.ign.co.../1106020p1.html

(Short version: NOT LIKELY!)

#222
Ieldra

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Zulu_DFA wrote...
For all those who keep up any hopes of "settling the score" with TIM in any way in ME3, I'd suggest to go by the link below and think how much potential BioWare sees in TIM's character for possible continuation of the ME series beyond "Commander Shepard's story"...

http://comics.ign.co.../1106020p1.html

(Short version: NOT LIKELY!)


They didn't say anything about continuation after Commander Shepard's story. They only said we might hear more of the Illusive Man after ME: Evolution, with no mention of where in the timeline. But I agree, it would be a shame to let such an interesting character die as Shepard's antagonist. I think he will survive ME3. If his organization survives ME3 is another story.

Too bad, really. I want his space station as Shepard's and Miranda's home. Maybe if I ask politely - after all, I did give him the base. :whistle:

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 octobre 2010 - 07:54 .


#223
Zulu_DFA

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Too bad, really. I want his space station as Shepard's and Miranda's home. Maybe if I ask politely - after all, I did give him the base. :whistle:


He-heh. He can even give the bride away at your wedding, sqeeze a fake tear out of his eye and say: "Report tomorrow at... all right! all right!.. at ten-hundred. We still have a galaxy to dominate!"

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 octobre 2010 - 12:25 .


#224
Sajuro

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Though I imagine making with Jack in his wouldn't be as exciting as it might seem, especially if he's trying to do paper work while you're doing it.

#225
Arijharn

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I hope TIM gets called to account one day, but galactic civilization is worth much more than 1, 5, 100 people imo.