151 réponses à ce sujet

[Rubies]

I'd love to be PMed with some more information on that class issue, as it's something I've had a lot of trouble with. In either case, looking forward to the release, even though I don't have the PRC haks!

[Calvinthesneak]

He is literally recoding the limitations. In assembly. this isn't some simple undertaking. As for the hakless I'm not sure about that, I think you'll need to update/replace BIF's and associated resources then. You'll need modified 2da tables and all that sort of good stuff, it will just act like the base game if it is all done correctly. Basically it would be a big ass patch that adds a whole lot of new content.....

[Rubies]

He is literally recoding the limitations. In assembly. this isn't some simple undertaking.

I'm using a similar solution for most of my client edits, which is the reason for my interest! I'm certainly not this experienced in my editing, though.

Modifié par Rubies, 03 octobre 2010 - 09:04 .

[ElgarL]

Calvinthesneak is correct. All the files go into a new set of Bifs. No haks or anything for the basic user to worry about. As far as the end user is concerned they use the same shortcut's and launcher to start the game as they always have done. It's totally transparent, but they'll have a stack of new classes to pick from at the set go, and lots of new spells. Well, everything thats in the PRC.
The installed client is left untouched so you can still launch the game as a virgin 1.69 by simply starting the (renamed) original exe. I'll probably increase the client/server version number at a later date. Once everything is tested and stable, to prevent non prc clients connecting to prc worlds by mistake. I've already tested the version part to be sure it's possible.
With this expansion we use our own Bifs, our own tlk, but all transparent with no configuring needed by the users.
Start the game with my launcher and it uses the original Bifs + new Bifs, plus defaults to our own base tlk file instead of the dialog.tlk (no need to associate it with mods anymore). This also leaves the tlk slot free for other mods. No more conflicting/merging tlk's with the PRC.

It will be a single install which will put everything you need in the right place (zip/rar will be provided for those who like to do it manually).
If you need to customize anything you have three options.

1. Modify the Bifs directly. I'll be providing the tool to build and extract files from the Bifs/Keys.
2. Modify the files and place in your override.
3. Place modified files in haks as we always have done.

So to cover a few of the questions.

Is this going to cause any backwards compatibility issues with the current client?

No, the original client will still be there to use if you need a virgin client, but characters created without the patch will work in the patched client too. It's mainly the limitations in the client which prevented a lot of people doing the magic they wanted to perform that have been recoded.

Do you plan on increasing the engine level cap at some point in the future?

Others have asked this too . I have been considering it and I'm still considering it. It is however a sizable task. The hard cap of 40 is placed in such a way as to make it extremely difficult to remove. Data tables entered into class templates only go upto 40, with hard coded indexing on template offsets. This means if I alter the loading code to read past 40, it alters the placement of other parts and changes the whole shape of the data tables. This would also break most other programs who look for and access those tables, like NWNX.
If I do remove the cap I'll likely do as I did with the spell tables and totally rebuild the table, releasing the information to whomever wants/needs it on where and how to find it.

just who exactly are you?

Well, I've been about on these, and the other forums for quite a few years, but generally only as a scripter. I'd not found anything to really dig my teeth into until I began working with the PRC.


Thank you all for your amazing interest. I was hoping this would revitalize NWN and it seems it might just do it.
Now I'm off to learn the Linux client .

[Shadooow]

Shame you didn't gave me pre-release before you published it here, but nevermind, I understand this is mainly for PRC.



What about the epic spells radial crash and 255memorised spells crash? Did you fixed them as well?

[ElgarL]

What epic spells crash?

I believe the 255 spell crash was fixed in the 1.69 patch.

[Shadooow]

having more than 5 or 6 epic spells shows in epic radial menu "next button" at 0'clocks, moving mouse cursor over it crashed in past client, havent tested after 1.69 though

[ElgarL]

Ah, I did see that crash, but it only seems to happen when showing a full list. There are 3 options with the lists, the one that crashes seems disused now

[Shadooow]

Hey, I know we discussed it via PM but I believe I have right and I know I myself can't persuade you, so I'm posting this publicly, hoping other community members will have same opinion as I have and that it will persuade you.

I think that putting stuff from PRC haks into bifs is very wrong decision. As you noted, this will cause incompatibility between servers using your PRC client to join their game and anyone else. The game version change is very bad idea just for this.

Your new client is so awesome and have so big potentional, but adding the PRC inside makes thiss very limited and specific use. I think there are others like me that likes those new possibilities your client adds, but do not like having PRC inside, thus 100new classes, psionics, 1k+ feats and spells + I don't think that PRC is ready to take this change yet, they still uses bonus feats solution for sorc/bard spellcasters gaining arcane prestige classes...

I think, that making this global like just your new features would be much better. Everything you need to make it userfriendly for PRC players, is to make some new feature to preload haks, something better than nwnpatch.ini, something where you could set path like

hak/prc_2das.hak
hak/prc_spells.hak
erf/prc_ocfix.erf
...and so on

The PRC stuff from haks don't have to be given into BIF.

This way, whole community could benefit from this, not just PRC players and developers.


I would like to use your client for my community patch, but if you release it the way you want, I will have to include new bif disabling all PRC stuff which is very ugly and tough solution. Instead if you would make it simply just as new client with possibilities but without any stuff, then both me and PRC would have it easier. Because if I want provide 100% compatibility with my Community patch and anything else, I need to put my stuff into BIF...

Please consider it again. Anyway thanks for making this, either way you make it, its one of the most important fan made stuff made for NWN1 ever.

[B_Harrison]

I agree with ShaDoOoW in principle: these improvements have so much value to ruleset modders that it seems a shame for the focus to be on a specific D&D class/feat expansion which many won't want to use (for various reasons), when it's perhaps most crucial to those of us building systems that aren't even D&D-based at all. Like multiplayer NWN itself, the value and potential of your fixes is far greater than any one project can encompass. It seems like the PRC should be a release based on your exe, not a feature of it by default.

But with all that said...

ShaDoOoW wrote...

... I will have to include new bif disabling all PRC stuff ...

Unless I've misunderstood the power of the key/bif editor Elgar is releasing with/after this, making our own bifs (or using default NWN bifs only) will be trivial.

[Shadooow]

B_Harrison wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...

... I will have to include new bif disabling all PRC stuff ...

Unless I've misunderstood the power of the key/bif editor Elgar is releasing with/after this, making our own bifs (or using default NWN bifs only) will be trivial.

I admit it was rather speculation from me.

I predicted the PRC stuff will be in some new bif file which will be hardcoded into the new client so I will have to make new with all 2das that one uses.

If I am wrong and it will be possible to disable the prc bif, then its fine, however hak solution would be still better. Even just for compatibility with non-PRC clients.

[Calvinthesneak]

ElgarL wrote...

Calvinthesneak is correct. All the files go into a new set of Bifs. No haks or anything for the basic user to worry about. As far as the end user is concerned they use the same shortcut's and launcher to start the game as they always have done. It's totally transparent, but they'll have a stack of new classes to pick from at the set go, and lots of new spells. Well, everything thats in the PRC.
The installed client is left untouched so you can still launch the game as a virgin 1.69 by simply starting the (renamed) original exe. I'll probably increase the client/server version number at a later date. Once everything is tested and stable, to prevent non prc clients connecting to prc worlds by mistake. I've already tested the version part to be sure it's possible.
With this expansion we use our own Bifs, our own tlk, but all transparent with no configuring needed by the users.
Start the game with my launcher and it uses the original Bifs + new Bifs, plus defaults to our own base tlk file instead of the dialog.tlk (no need to associate it with mods anymore). This also leaves the tlk slot free for other mods. No more conflicting/merging tlk's with the PRC.

It will be a single install which will put everything you need in the right place (zip/rar will be provided for those who like to do it manually).
If you need to customize anything you have three options.

1. Modify the Bifs directly. I'll be providing the tool to build and extract files from the Bifs/Keys.
2. Modify the files and place in your override.
3. Place modified files in haks as we always have done.

So to cover a few of the questions.

Is this going to cause any backwards compatibility issues with the current client?

No, the original client will still be there to use if you need a virgin client, but characters created without the patch will work in the patched client too. It's mainly the limitations in the client which prevented a lot of people doing the magic they wanted to perform that have been recoded.

Do you plan on increasing the engine level cap at some point in the future?

Others have asked this too . I have been considering it and I'm still considering it. It is however a sizable task. The hard cap of 40 is placed in such a way as to make it extremely difficult to remove. Data tables entered into class templates only go upto 40, with hard coded indexing on template offsets. This means if I alter the loading code to read past 40, it alters the placement of other parts and changes the whole shape of the data tables. This would also break most other programs who look for and access those tables, like NWNX.
If I do remove the cap I'll likely do as I did with the spell tables and totally rebuild the table, releasing the information to whomever wants/needs it on where and how to find it.

just who exactly are you?

Well, I've been about on these, and the other forums for quite a few years, but generally only as a scripter. I'd not found anything to really dig my teeth into until I began working with the PRC.


Thank you all for your amazing interest. I was hoping this would revitalize NWN and it seems it might just do it.
Now I'm off to learn the Linux client .

I would dare say that is what is he currently doing.  At least according to his own post.  My understanding is that he simply has a few repackaged bif/key files for overrides that contain the PRC stuff, and that you're not in any way forced into using those.

Modifié par Calvinthesneak, 05 octobre 2010 - 11:05 .

[ElgarL]

When the launcher is released it will be packaged with the PRC. However it's not tied to it. So if you want to take the launcher and remove all PRC bifs in favor of your own it will still work just fine. The launcher simply removes the hard coded limitations and opens up several parts of the client that are not available to the user at the moment.

I've written it specifically with modding in mind, and I know everyone has different preferences so I've made it as flexible to use and customize as possible.

Modifié par ElgarL, 06 octobre 2010 - 05:14 .

[Talia Kirana]

That's good to hear

[WebShaman]

ElgarL, in keeping with the PRC legacy (of letting things be alterable according to user preference), you have remained true to the NWN spirit.



Bravo!



I for one want to have access to PRC material with this.

[Estelindis]

I somehow managed to miss this until now. Lots of great news about a very interesting project! Thanks for your hard work. Looking forward to the results. :-)

One of the restrictions I found with the PRC (having discussed this with PRC team members) was that, well, being the *player* resource compendium, many of its classes didn't shine as brightly for NPCs.  Various hardcoded features combined with AI to prevent opponents or henchfolk from taking full advantage of PRC class levels.  Would this project make any difference to issues like this? 

Modifié par Estelindis, 11 octobre 2010 - 08:55 .

[ElgarL]

I'm not sure what you are refering to with NPC's, but I'm assuming there are feats/skills the henchmen just don't use even when available.
I'm making no script changes to the PRC, other than minor ones to integrate it into the base client.

However, if you can detail one of these problems I'm sure it can be looked into.

[Tren of Twilight Tower]

Amazing...  ElgarL, I bow to you, sir.

Tren

[Estelindis]

Well, I'm no expert (perhaps someone from the PRC could chime in), but I got the impression that, because psionics is an "extra" magic system operating outside the bounds of the regular classes and spell lists, it works fine with a PC who consciously selects the various powers, but not for NPCs who rely on hardcoded AI. I recall asking if it could be made to work for NPCs, and the answer was that it would take a ridiculous amount of coding and scripting, and even then it might not work. But, given that what you're doing seems to be opening up the game engine to spellcasting to work properly for non-core classes, I thought it might have a knock-on effect on the psionics system. At the very last, it might reduce the amount of workaround that need to be performed in order for me to get my githyanki psychic warrior henchwoman working properly. :-)

[ElgarL]

Ah I umderstand.

We have discussed psionics and it was thought to add psionics as a spell class, but the psi points would need to be handled differently to normal spells as you can use multiple points per psi ability where spells it's point for point.

Xwarren suggested adding psi books, but keep the scripting handling the points as it is now. This is possible as the actual casting is already handled via spellhooks. I've had little to no experience with the AI so I'd be unsure as to how it would handle psi casters, but it will be interesting to see what happens.

I was just in the middle of adding default event script code hooks when I had an accident and put my back out. (typing this flat out on my bed). It's going to be a couple of days before I can get to my dev pc to have a play, but I will be sure to have a look at psionics.

[Estelindis]

Poor Elgar. :-( Thanks for the reply. Hope you get well soon. :-)

[Talia Kirana]

Hope you feel better soon!

[ElgarL]

I'm back at the PC (propped up:wizard:) so looking to fix a couple of bugs which have appeared, then (fingers crossed) we'll open beta.

[MrZork]

Glad you are on the mend. As someone who has dealt with back trouble, I know it's no fun and sitting the way most people do coding can be rough. Anyway, take your time; this game has kept us engaged for so long that I am confident it will continue to do so long enough for such a significant advance.

[Shadooow]

Hey would be possible to save spells in slot for situation when you (temporarily) lost the spell slots, so you wouldn't need to re-add all spells there again and again? Would be amazing improvement for wizards and divine spellcasters.

Also, hows progress?

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 15 octobre 2010 - 12:01 .