258 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

I'm really hoping DA2 keeps these to a minimum.  I've never understood why the game goes out of its way to give me metagame information like that.

The Warden doesn't know Loghain is hiring assassins.  So why is there a cutscene revealing this to the player?  All it does is taint our first encounter with that assassin.

I would very much like it if DA2's narrative was limited to events Hawke actually witnesses or is told about.  Things the villain is doing in some far away location of which the PC can have no knowledge--we shouldn't ever see those in cutscenes.

[DarthCaine]

It adds character to the antagonist. So I say the more the merrier. It's the only reason why Saren was a great antagonist. Loghain would have sucked as a character if we only saw him in like 2 scenes.

IMO there aren't enough scenes with the antagonist in BioWare games. BioWare's antagonists need to have more screen time thus more character

Modifié par DarthCaine, 01 octobre 2010 - 09:59 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

But it can't impact the gameplay without us metagaming.

[Dhiro]

Don't forget that there other people telling the story. Let's say, Varric: he could have see thing that Hawke doesn't, things that Cassandra would want to know, maybe?

[The Masked Rog]

I agree that the assassin cutscene should never have been shown to the player, it just ruined the surprise. I'm not completely against cutscenes not directly witnessed by the character, if they are just there to add flavor and do not reveal any plot though.

Modifié par The Masked Rog, 01 octobre 2010 - 09:24 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Well, this would make for a pretty poor story. I get what you're saying, and I understand that you have a hard-on for making the game as "realistic" as possible when concerning the first person nature of RPGs, but in the context of a story being told, it really wouldn't work. It's an interesting IDEA, but I don't think it would work very well at all once birthed.

[DarthCaine]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

But it can't impact the gameplay without us metagaming.

It's the presentation of the story that matters the most, not "realism" and "logic". Just think how much Loghain, Malak and Saren would have sucked if we only saw them in 2 scenes.

Just look at the Joker in The Dark Knight. Just think how much the movie would have sucked if we only saw him in places where Batman was present. Hell, look at ANY antagonist and how much less character they would've had if they were present only in scenes where the protagonist was present.

Modifié par DarthCaine, 01 octobre 2010 - 09:27 .

[Chris Priestly]

Please keep in mind Sylvius has a rather.... unique look at RPG video games and what should or should not be included.

Modifié par Chris Priestly, 01 octobre 2010 - 09:28 .

[DarthCaine]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Please keep in mind Sylvus has a rather.... unique look at RPG video games and what should or should not be included.

Yes, he usually likes the opposite of what everyone else likes

[Bryy_Miller]

DarthCaine wrote...

Just look at the Joker in The Dark Knight. Just think how much the movie would have sucked if we only saw him in places where Batman was present. Hell, look at ANY antagonist and how much less character they would've had if they were present only in scenes where the protagonist was present.

Oh, you just walked into a trap so hard.

[ENolan]

I must admit that it is an interesting view. It leaves more to the imagination and, those that use those imaginations, benefits them in the possibilities for what can be recovered from those hidden moments. There is still plenty we didn't see and I personally can envision the scenario behind what was going on there. In a way, it does add to the more conceptual viewpoint.

[Crippledcarny]

I actually agree with this. The Loghain cut scenes did seem unneeded and out of place, imo.

[The Hardest Thing In The World]

I think I agree with Sylvius on this.

[David Gaider]

Well, let's see. We'd have to get rid of the framing narrative, for one. Hawke sure isn't present for the conversations between Varric and Cassandra.



And then there's the ones that are needed to communicate things to the player, as oppose to Hawke. Who are different people, you know.



Yeah, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[AtreiyaN7]

On one level it's like reading a book or watching a movie. Sometimes you find out things that the main character doesn't/shouldn't know, even if you're envisioning yourself in the role of the main character. It doesn't bother me at all. I like getting glimpses of what other major characters are doing - it doesn't ruin things for me.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 01 octobre 2010 - 09:37 .

[Dave of Canada]

I disagree. Many of these cutscenes invoke emotion in the player. How do you think people would've felt after you find out Loghain fled the field and apparently Cailan / Duncan died? They would've shrugged, most likely expecting them to return since we didn't see them die onscreen and it would've went into the bus crash trope.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 01 octobre 2010 - 09:39 .

[Anarya]

Well yeah, like others said it's a moment that helps you get a feel for Loghain's character, and Howe's. You see that he gets no joy out of allowing Howe to send an assassin after you and that says a lot about him.

It's also an introduction to Zevran.

In the end you aren't really living out the life of your character, you're playing your character while being told a story.

Modifié par Anarya, 01 octobre 2010 - 09:40 .

[Maverick827]

You have metagame information for every single game you've ever played a second time through. Do you find that in these instances you are able to disregard such information when making decisions as your character, rather than as yourself? Yes?

Cool.

[David Gaider]

The Hardest Thing In The World wrote...
I think I agree with Sylvius on this.

Agree all you like. If you wish to write a story completely from a first-person perspective, be my guest.

Modifié par David Gaider, 01 octobre 2010 - 09:39 .

[DarthCaine]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I disagree. Many of these cutscenes invoke emotion in the player. How do you think people would've felt after you find out Loghain fled the field and apparently Cailan / Duncan died? They would've shrugged, most likely expecting them to return since we didn't see them die onscreen.

Right, just think how much less emotional it would have been if we never saw Duncan and Cailan die

Modifié par DarthCaine, 01 octobre 2010 - 09:41 .

[MerinTB]

I understand the point Sylvius is making. And done right, limited POV for a story (novel, movie, game) can be very effective.

I don't think you necessarily need things one way or the other, though. There are pro's and con's to either method.

That said - framed narrative doesn't work unless you stick to ONLY what the narrator witnessed / was told / makes up... and then it could completely work, actually.

Have to disagree with David about that then. The POV could be stuck to only what Varric knows.  Limited POV doesn't negate the framed narrative - unless at some point in the game we switch narrators? 

That said - I'm all for not limiting the POV.

Modifié par MerinTB, 01 octobre 2010 - 09:43 .

[Dhiro]

The moment this thread was opened I just knew Mr. Gaider would post here.



Anyway, I agree with Dave. If the isn't no cutscene with Cailan's death I would hardly care. Damn, there is a cutscene and I still don't care. But you get it.

[ENolan]

David Gaider wrote...

Well, let's see. We'd have to get rid of the framing narrative, for one. Hawke sure isn't present for the conversations between Varric and Cassandra.

And then there's the ones that are needed to communicate things to the player, as oppose to Hawke. Who are different people, you know.

Yeah, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

But in the end, that is why it wouldn't work with DA2. It would just be random scenes pasted together most likely with a loading screen. Imagination of an unfinished story has its limits when suspension of belief is already heavily in place, especially when it doesn't even a have a complete wiki detailing everything about it yet.

[Numa-Fai]

And then there's the ones that are needed to communicate things to the player, as oppose to Hawke. Who are different people, you know.

I agree, metagaming is sometimes necessary...

[John Epler]

MerinTB wrote...

I understand the point Sylvius is making. And done right, limited POV for a story (novel, movie, game) can be very effective.

I don't think you necessarily need things one way or the other, though. There are pro's and con's to either method.

That said - framed narrative doesn't work unless you stick to ONLY what the narrator witnessed / was told / makes up... and then it could completely work, actually.

Have to disagree with David. The POV could be stuck to only what Varric knows - unless at some point in the game we switch narrators?

I think you could feasibly suggest that anything Varric isn't present for is being told by him with the implicit knowledge that it's something he heard after the fact. Even if he wasn't present for it, he could've asked other people who were, in fact, involved.

As an addendum, though - limited POV is definitely something that can work in some cases. Just as it can be set aside when it becomes too restrictive for the people trying to tell the story. Like all tools, it has its uses, but that doesn't mean it's a universal necessity.

Modifié par JohnEpler, 01 octobre 2010 - 09:46 .