258 réponses à ce sujet

[Faz432]

David Gaider wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Yes, but how does that even work?  Those things told to the player can't impact the PC's behaviour if the player is making any effort to roleplay, so why bother?

Because we're telling a story? One that is being communicated to the player as much as to your PC? Your PC isn't expected to react to what's being relayed there-- the player is.

I don't doubt we could do a story just fine without cut-away scenes. We had to make do in the NWN OC, for instance, because the cutscene capability was extremely limited. This just isn't one of those stories, and it's not going to be.

And how does the player know what's directed at him?  Is it just information that isn't available to Hawke?

Seriously? 

Are cut-aways that complicated a notion?

Sorry, this is one element of your pedantic nature I'm going to have to take a pass on, Sylvius. What seems good in theory doesn't always make for a good implementation in practice.

David, how does the framed narrative work?

Is it like we do something then Varric says it, or Varric says it then we do it?

[DarthCaine]

SirShreK wrote...
Sure. Say what you like.

Last time I checked L4D has a good metacritic score. Are you saying that game has a good story? Are you saying Diablo has a good story?

Adventure games have a much lower metacritic score and almost every last one of them have a much better story than 99% of FPSs

Modifié par DarthCaine, 01 octobre 2010 - 10:14 .

[the_one_54321]

Faz432 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Yes, but how does that even work?  Those things told to the player can't impact the PC's behaviour if the player is making any effort to roleplay, so why bother?

Because we're telling a story? One that is being communicated to the player as much as to your PC? Your PC isn't expected to react to what's being relayed there-- the player is.

I don't doubt we could do a story just fine without cut-away scenes. We had to make do in the NWN OC, for instance, because the cutscene capability was extremely limited. This just isn't one of those stories, and it's not going to be.

And how does the player know what's directed at him?  Is it just information that isn't available to Hawke?

Seriously? 

Are cut-aways that complicated a notion?

Sorry, this is one element of your pedantic nature I'm going to have to take a pass on, Sylvius. What seems good in theory doesn't always make for a good implementation in practice.

David, how does the framed narrative work?

Is it like we do something then Varric says it, or Varric says it then we do it?

If your character is not there while it's going on, then assume that your character doesn't know about it. Again, if you don't want to metagame then don't metagame. No one is holding a gun to your head.

[Reaverwind]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I'm really hoping DA2 keeps these to a minimum.  I've never understood why the game goes out of its way to give me metagame information like that.

The Warden doesn't know Loghain is hiring assassins.  So why is there a cutscene revealing this to the player?  All it does is taint our first encounter with that assassin.

I would very much like it if DA2's narrative was limited to events Hawke actually witnesses or is told about.  Things the villain is doing in some far away location of which the PC can have no knowledge--we shouldn't ever see those in cutscenes.

I'd actually like to see those gone.

[Daerog]

JohnEpler wrote...

As an addendum, though - limited POV is definitely something that can work in some cases. Just as it can be set aside when it becomes too restrictive for the people trying to tell the story. Like all tools, it has its uses, but that doesn't mean it's a universal necessity.

Limited POV is great for horror/thriller/suspense games.

It can also be great in an RPG, but I think the hero would have to run into the antagonist every now and again to set up the antagonists character (or perceived character) or to just have the antagonist remain an unknown force. Like Sauron, but like in LotR, there were other antagonists that confronted the heroes to help establish what the evil force was about.

I honestly wished there were more cutscenes showing things the Warden didn't witness in Awakening. Leaving the Architect for just the end seemed like such a waste after reading what an interesting character he/it was in The Calling. The Calling also split the story up and would have been worse if it only followed Maric or Duncan and ignored the Architect until the climax.

So, my opinion is that they are needed if the developer/writer wishes for the two opposing forces to be established and known to the audience and not have the two clash over and over again. So, it is unneeded if the two forces confront each other often. Unless the developer/writer wishes to leave the antagonist as a mysterious force, left for the end or never really revealled. 

Depends on the story. As for cutscenes in Origins, the Zevran one wasn't really necessary as Zevran tells you anyway if you question him (why wouldn't you if you didn't know who sent him?) and any character development Loghain had in that scene could also be seen when Anora confronted him. Just some more screen time for the guy to have the player see him as a person and not just a force. The rest were fine in my opinion. The Awakening scenes introduces the Mother in all her insane glory and the Architect in his very vague and unknown nature. What was up with the mask, twisted face, head thing, and having both hands? Only speculation, but it would have been nice to have seen him using magic to mold his form or show that the body was just a puppet being used while his true self was somewhere else. He/It was just a big "Who/What the hell is this?" kind of character who could just be killed and have the Warden shrug at such an oddity. More encounters of him/it would have been welcome by me. Or at least cutscenes.

[dislye]

A story is told from more than one perspective. When you watch a movie, the main character is not in every scene. It limits the scope and scale of the experience. When you have more to show in cut scenes it gives a feeling of a bigger world. Games like DA needs this feeling. Do we know everything that happens around us? Yet if our lives were game, SOMEONE would know (in our case, the government lol)

[SirShreK]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Please keep in mind Sylvius has a rather.... unique look at RPG video games and what should or should not be included.

Evil vs. Douche.

Its a thin line.

[the_one_54321]

SirShreK wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
And? A first-person game tells a first-person story.

?????

Just because you're acting like it's a difficult concept doesn't mean it's a difficult concept. First person. The player only knows about things that are told directly to the character. You hear only what the character hears. You see only what the character sees. Think "hand cam movies." Like Cloverfield or The Blair Witch project. Notably, there is a lot (A WHOLE LOT) of background information to the story that is missing from what the character sees.

[lv12medic]

Hmm... using Zevran's job interview as an example. It might be interesting to get that cutscene after you run into him and you start interrogating him. Maybe food for thought for a future DA game? Anyways... my brains hitting the random idea wall again.

[SirShreK]

the_one_54321 wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
And? A first-person game tells a first-person story.

?????

Just because you're acting like it's a difficult concept doesn't mean it's a difficult concept. First person. The player only knows about things that are told directly to the character. You hear only what the character hears. You see only what the character sees. Think "hand cam movies." Like Cloverfield or The Blair Witch project. Notably, there is a lot (A WHOLE LOT) of background information to the story that is missing from what the character sees.

I am not sure about you, but I have played a LOT of FPSs that had third person cutscenes. Some of them were Amazing. One of them was my perosnal no. 1 on all lists.

EDIT: Deus Ex 1.

Modifié par SirShreK, 01 octobre 2010 - 10:34 .

[DarthCaine]

SirShreK wrote...

Deus Ex Machina.

It's called Deus Ex, and that's an Action RPG, even though some list it as a FPS, it's no less of an Action RPG than Mass Effect

Modifié par DarthCaine, 01 octobre 2010 - 10:25 .

[the_one_54321]

SirShreK wrote...
I am not sure about you, but I have played a LOT of FPSs that had third person cutscenes. Some of them were Amazing. One of them was my perosnal no. 1 on all lists.

Then what is your example intended to convey? What were you getting at when you brought up that FPS? Perspective in a story is not not always exactly the same as perspective in story telling. ... so? You're being confusing.

[the_one_54321]

DarthCaine wrote...

SirShreK wrote...
Deus Ex Machina.

It's called Deus Ex, and that's an Action RPG, even though some list it as a FPS, it's no less of an RPG than Mass Effect

So it's not an RPG. Gotcha.

[Brockololly]

I would only say that at least in Origins and Awakening, too often the cutscenes were used almost exclusively  for exposition with the antagonists, like with Loghain in Origins or the Mother in Awakening.

Its sort of a related problem that in both Origins and Awakening, you never really feel any connection to the villain and in part, only seeing them through distant cutscenes for the most part is the problem. Instead of cutscenes, it would be nice if whatever antagonists Hawke faces are a bit more active and personal, like how Irenicus was always out and about.


Obviously you can't do that with something like the Mother, but even there, I felt like if instead of just all of a sudden revealing her in a cutscene with no introduction, it would have made for a cooler reveal if we only heard her voice or something from the shadows in the cutscenes for the necessary exposition. So that way, some element of mystery was maintained and the player and the PC could be on the same page in so far as keeping mystery as to who/what the Mother is, up until you could have her identity revealed when they actually meet face to face at the end.

Modifié par Brockololly, 01 octobre 2010 - 10:24 .

[Mister Mida]

Unless Bioware plans on revealing a crapload of info during these retellings by other characters I wouldn't worry too much about giving players information they shouldn't be having.

[SirShreK]

DarthCaine wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

Deus Ex Machina.

It's called Deus Ex, and that's an Action RPG, even though some list it as a FPS, it's no less of an RPG than Mass Effect

My mistake about the Machina. Force of habit to differentate/alieniate it from Deus ex franchise.

What does FPS stand for btw? I seem to have forgotten.

[DarthCaine]

the_one_54321 wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

SirShreK wrote...
Deus Ex Machina.

It's called Deus Ex, and that's an Action RPG, even though some list it as a FPS, it's no less of an Action RPG than Mass Effect

So it's not an RPG. Gotcha.

I never said RPG, I said Action RPG and there's a big difference.

I don't care what you think about ME2, but you can't deny ME1 is an Action RPG, and Deus Ex is nothing less

Modifié par DarthCaine, 01 octobre 2010 - 10:25 .

[SirShreK]

the_one_54321 wrote...

SirShreK wrote...
I am not sure about you, but I have played a LOT of FPSs that had third person cutscenes. Some of them were Amazing. One of them was my perosnal no. 1 on all lists.

Then what is your example intended to convey? What were you getting at when you brought up that FPS? Perspective in a story is not not always exactly the same as perspective in story telling. ... so? You're being confusing.

Err.... Perhaps we were agreeing afterall.

[DarthCaine]

SirShreK wrote...

What does FPS stand for btw? I seem to have forgotten.

FPS - First Person Shooter

Modifié par DarthCaine, 01 octobre 2010 - 10:24 .

[the_one_54321]

SirShreK wrote...
What does FPS stand for btw? I seem to have forgotten.

Are you being sarcastic now?? Your posts are bewildering.

First Person perspective in the mechanics of a game means that you literally see through the eyes of the character. First Person perspective in a story means that you are only given information that the character would know in the game as well. You can have First Person perspective mechanics without having First Person perspective story. You can also have First Person perspective story without having First Person perspective mechanics. These are not difficult concepts.

[SirShreK]

DarthCaine wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

What does FPS stand for btw? I seem to have forgotten.

FPS - First Person Shooter

[DAOME2FTW]

Maybe Loghains betrayel at Ostagar could have been done better, we could have found out nearer the end or something.

[DarthCaine]

SirShreK wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

What does FPS stand for btw? I seem to have forgotten.

FPS - First Person Shooter

Look, saying Deus Ex isn't an Action RPG just because it's played in a first person perspective is like saying Fallout 3, Fallout New Vegas, Oblivion, Morrowind and VTMB aren't Action RPGs

Modifié par DarthCaine, 01 octobre 2010 - 10:29 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Ulicus wrote...

I cannot disagree with Sylvius enough, on this. When I play a CRPG, I'm more than capable of RPing a character without allowing my metagame knowledge to taint their decisions. So why would I want to trade in the very thing that allows a video game's narrative to be all the more cinematic and compelling for, essentially, the sake of my first -- and only my first -- playthrough?

If the information hadn't been made that available to you, you could actually discover more details about the villians or other characters on subsequent playthroughs.

I suggest it would actually make the game more replayable because you could have more disparate experiences from character to character.

What if, depending on your character's choices, you witness different meetings of Loghain's?  Maybe one character sees (or learns of) him hiring assassins, while a different character sees him being scolded by Anora.

That would produce different roleplaying opportunities.

[Quinnzel]

I actually enjoy those sort of bits within a game. I loved it when in BG2 when after a lengthy story quest, or mid way through it, they would cut to Irenicus and Imoen, expanding the plot a little more but leaving even more questions afterwords.



Those sort of POV pullbacks can really expand upon the world and other characters IMO.