315 réponses à ce sujet

[rexil]

tmp7704 wrote...

StingingVelvet wrote...

For fun, let's compare fur collars from Lost Planet, a 4 year old game, and Dragon Age 2:

Well, this is more accurate portrayal of the same subject:

http://uk.xbox360.ig...?page=mediaFull



but while you're at it, compare --also for fun-- quality of other textures end elements of the graphics. Picking specifically on just one aspect which is done better in another game while ignoring cases where the opposite is true... well, it's not the most fair comparison one could make, is it?

The armor and skin texture looks good, it's the environments that needs extra care. 
And I think it's already looking much more nicer, they are going to release some footage soon, so, I guess they already have polished some things.

[upsettingshorts]

I think some games do benefit - in terms of gameplay - from improved graphics, shooters definitely being one of them. I took a break from the genre - more or less a clean break - from roughly Battlefield 1942/MOHAA till the other day, when I decided I'd try Battlefield Bad Company 2.

Since I don't want to get into a full review of the game or my impressions of how the genre has evolved, I'll stick to one of the biggest differences I noticed:

The maps are so dense - with houses, with trees, with foliage, with destroyed equipment, that getting a bead on your target actually requires work. Smart players are rewarded not only for using cover well, but thinking about what your opponent cant see, with things like smoke grenades, shade, and other natural obstacles. If the graphics were blocky and minimalist, it'd be much easier to shoot people, and the game would be very different.

But I'm not sure the same thing can be true of RPGs of this nature.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 octobre 2010 - 02:46 .

[tmp7704]

Dragoon001 wrote...

Based on the code quality of DAO 1, I would already be happy if you hire 'any' programmer with a degree.

Wait, source code for DAO is available to the public for download and review? Link plx.

[StingingVelvet]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

I personally promise that the next time I do a game about being really damn cold all the time and dying because of it, I will encourage the art team to do a better job of rendering insulation.

Similarly, the next time I set a game completely underwater, I will hire a water-interaction programmer like Bioshock did.

As it stands, though, we're going to keep focusing on delivering an engaging, evolving decade-long story with team-based fantasy combat. Also, Chris hit the nail on the head. Comparing pre-rendered cutscenes to in-game is like comparing a passenger train to a sedan and declaring the sedan to be lacking capacity.

It was NOT a pre-rendered image, for the fourth time.  That is completely in-game.  Forget the Lost Planet screen even exists though and focus on the fact that, I'm sorry, the fur texture there looks like something from the Playstation 2.  That's just a fact.  If it is improve later then great.

And while you work for Bioware and that's great I don't think talking down to me or dismissing graphics really helps anything.  If graphics didn't matter you wouldn't bother improving them past KotOR in the first place.  Graphics help to immerse the player in a more believable world and that is just as important with story-driven RPGs as it is shooters or action games, if not more important since an RPG depends so much on immersing the player in a fictional world.

The fact is the early shots looked terrible and while the newer shots have improved character models the environments still look low-res and lacking detail.  I do not assume the game will ship this way, I am just hoping it does not.  I don't think it would be in my interest as a player or in your interest as a developer to release a game that looks well below the curve in graphics and immersive worlds.

[StingingVelvet]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I think some games do benefit - in terms of gameplay - from improved graphics, shooters definitely being one of them. I took a break from the genre - more or less a clean break - from roughly Battlefield 1942/MOHAA till the other day, when I decided I'd try Battlefield Bad Company 2.

Since I don't want to get into a full review of the game or my impressions of how the genre has evolved, I'll stick to one of the biggest differences I noticed:

The maps are so dense - with houses, with trees, with foliage, with destroyed equipment, that getting a bead on your target actually requires work. Smart players are rewarded not only for using cover well, but thinking about what your opponent cant see, with things like smoke grenades, shade, and other natural obstacles. If the graphics were blocky and minimalist, it'd be much easier to shoot people, and the game would be very different.

But I'm not sure the same thing can be true of RPGs of this nature.

You don't think it's important in an RPG to feel like you are exploring a foriegn land, immersing yourself in another world?  If you acknowledge that is important, you don't think graphics help with that?

I think a lot of people like to talk about graphics in a way that makes them sound cultured and superior, like they are above considering graphics important, and I think that is all B.S. to be frank.  Graphics are improved generation after generation because they are important... more detailed and life-like worlds are more immersive worlds, more interesting worlds, which make for better backdrops.  Design is a huge part of it, but technical progress and graphical fidelity are an important aspect too.  Dragon Age isn't a better game than Baldur's Gate because it looks better, but it is nice and beneficial that it looks better.

Modifié par StingingVelvet, 02 octobre 2010 - 03:47 .

[Alyka]

Chris Priestly wrote...

They aren't.

Don't compare graphics from a cutscene with actual gameplay. If you want to compare teh Lost Planet cutscenes to our Digic trailer, go ahead, that would be valid.

And don't compare a game in it's final stable, shipped condition to a screenshot from a game 8 months away (at the time of the picture) from launch.

Agreed.

While our graphics will be much better by the time we ship, keep in mind we have oodles more dialog, writing and content then Lost Planet (which I finished and enjoyed a fair bit). We will ALWAYS put more dialog, story and content in our games than worry about making sure the fur trim is fluffy enough. Just sayin'

That's good to know.I would much rather play a game that has a better story,dialogue/VO and a good combat system than play a game that has pretty graphics but everything else falls short. But that's just me.

Modifié par Alyka, 02 octobre 2010 - 03:58 .

[Icinix]

Graphics texture / shape etc aside, I've been hugely impressed by the animation and character agility.



When it comes down to it, I'd take a hit on the style of graphics for an increase in quality of animation.



As I've said before though, when I first saw screen shots of KOTOR, DA:O, Mass Effect, I thought the graphics quality looked crapola, but once I played them in action it was a whole different kettle of bananas. Sometimes screenshots just don't tell the whole picture.

[Ortaya Alevli]

Alright, the whole thing began to sound like people saying "I'd take smarts over looks in a chick any day," while we all know there are women who are both good looking and intelligent in the world.

[Alyka]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Alright, the whole thing began to sound like people saying "I'd take smarts over looks in a chick any day," while we all know there are women who are both good looking and intelligent in the world.

Of course.But my point was, if a game developing company has a small budget to work with,I would prefer that they focus on story and combat rather than graphics.Dont get me wrong though,I do like better graphics and I do think they help more with the environment of a game.

Modifié par Alyka, 02 octobre 2010 - 04:16 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

Alyka wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Alright, the whole thing began to sound like people saying "I'd take smarts over looks in a chick any day," while we all know there are women who are both good looking and intelligent in the world.

Of course.But my point was, if a game developing company has a small budget to work with,I would prefer that they focus on story and combat rather than graphics.Dont get me wrong though,I do like better graphics and I do think they help more with the environment of a game.

I was hoping to get a good bashing out of that "we all know..." part, but this will do, too.

To be serious, my post was directed to the general course of the thread and not to a single post. It's a point emphasized one too many times while the fact that quality can be conserved on both aspects at least to an acceptable extent has been largely overlooked. The original post has a good point; this is no "ZOMG DA2 VISUALS SUCK" thread, and while the folk with the big blue logo made a point of time and resources being a major restriction time and again, there's no harm in wishing for better graphics in a BioWare game (not a good game, a BioWare game) as long as the case is laid in a constructive manner.

[Elanareon]

Why do people keep saying the game is out 8 months from now? I thought the game was due on March, that's like 5 months from now...

[StingingVelvet]

Alyka wrote...

Of course.But my point was, if a game developing company has a small budget to work with,I would prefer that they focus on story and combat rather than graphics.Dont get me wrong though,I do like better graphics and I do think they help more with the environment of a game.

Bioware does not have a small budget.  This is not Dead State we are talking about, an upcoming isometric RPG that I am very much looking forward to from a small team with a tight budget.  I expect  that game to not be super impressive on the technology side of graphics, but it is also a niche game made for a small audience that will likely have a sub-$30 price.

Dragon Age 2 is a AAA game from a AAA studio published by one of the two top publishers in the industry and it will carry a $60 price tag.  It is not a game that should need to skimp on graphics to come up with 40 hours of gameplay.  If Bioware want to do a true Baldur's Gate style game for that niche audience and have it look 10 years old I am SUPER FINE with that, but that is not what Dragon Age 2 is.  It's a mainstream game, a blockbuster, the Transformers 2 of video games, but it looks (so far) pretty below average.

As the gentleman you quoted said, this thread is full of people acting like there is a choice to be made, or that I am insinuating graphics are most important.  I never said such a thing, and I do not believe there should be a choice.

Modifié par StingingVelvet, 02 octobre 2010 - 05:17 .

[SirOccam]

Elanareon wrote...

Why do people keep saying the game is out 8 months from now? I thought the game was due on March, that's like 5 months from now...

8 months from when that particular screenshot was taken.

[SirOccam]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I think some games do benefit - in terms of gameplay - from improved graphics, shooters definitely being one of them. I took a break from the genre - more or less a clean break - from roughly Battlefield 1942/MOHAA till the other day, when I decided I'd try Battlefield Bad Company 2.

Since I don't want to get into a full review of the game or my impressions of how the genre has evolved, I'll stick to one of the biggest differences I noticed:

The maps are so dense - with houses, with trees, with foliage, with destroyed equipment, that getting a bead on your target actually requires work. Smart players are rewarded not only for using cover well, but thinking about what your opponent cant see, with things like smoke grenades, shade, and other natural obstacles. If the graphics were blocky and minimalist, it'd be much easier to shoot people, and the game would be very different.

But I'm not sure the same thing can be true of RPGs of this nature.

I agree, but I think graphics do help RPGs. Just not in gameplay, per se. Mainly in immersion. It adds to the experience to explore a detailed and vibrant landscape.

In either case, as Evil Chris said, story should come first. Make the graphics as good as you can, but when it comes down to it, they are not what's most important.

[SpiderFan1217]

  I have nothing to add. Just wanted to show everyone this pic again. 

[StingingVelvet]

Also just to make a point, the only thing I was hunting for with this thread was this...

Chris Priestly wrote...

While our graphics will be much better by the time we ship,

That's kind of the be-all-end-all right there.  I thought the graphics in these early shots looked poor, so I was wondering if they were final or if the shipped game would look better.  Priestly answered in the very first response that they will look better by the time the game comes out.

So I am optimistic.

[StingingVelvet]

SpiderFan1217 wrote...



  I have nothing to add. Just wanted to show everyone this pic again. 

It looks alright, but everything below the neck is low-res and shoddy looking to some extent.  The fur is the worst, but also look at the string and how flat it is as part of the overall texture, and how low-res the metal and straps are.  In 2011 I expect more from a huge and well-funded studio pumping out $60 games.

It might be the VRAM limitations as I said before and we might see higher resolution textures on the PC... I hope so.

[SpiderFan1217]

StingingVelvet wrote...

It looks alright, but everything below the neck is low-res and shoddy looking to some extent.  The fur is the worst, but also look at the string and how flat it is as part of the overall texture, and how low-res the metal and straps are.  In 2011 I expect more from a huge and well-funded studio pumping out $60 games.

It might be the VRAM limitations as I said before and we might see higher resolution textures on the PC... I hope so.

See, when I started playing games my guy looked like a blot. He held up a sheild and I thought it was a cup. Graphics airn't that important to me. So long as I can tell what everything is, I'm happy. The stuff I'm seeing for DA2 looks really good.

[asaiasai]

I think most of you are spoiled today, i remember playing Taipan on the trs-80, all text, what graphics there were were pretty low res, explosions consisted of some screen flicker, you want color do not worry about it we have 2, black and white.



It is a balancing act, content vs pretty that is the choice the company and the player makes. Look at ME2 it looks great on my PC but it is a weak game, the interface sucks among other things. Now look at DAO it does not look as good as ME2 did but DAO was a far superior game. I myself would rather the balance be more towards content as DAO was than towards pretty as ME2, but that is probably the old timer in me.



Asai

[HTTP 404]

I feel like most of us already know that dragon age graphics are never going to be cutting edge. so whats the big deal?

[SpiderFan1217]

asaiasai wrote...

I think most of you are spoiled today, i remember playing Taipan on the trs-80, all text, what graphics there were were pretty low res, explosions consisted of some screen flicker, you want color do not worry about it we have 2, black and white.

It is a balancing act, content vs pretty that is the choice the company and the player makes. Look at ME2 it looks great on my PC but it is a weak game, the interface sucks among other things. Now look at DAO it does not look as good as ME2 did but DAO was a far superior game. I myself would rather the balance be more towards content as DAO was than towards pretty as ME2, but that is probably the old timer in me.

Asai

While I disagree with your comparison of DA and ME2. (I loved everything about that game.) I agree with the point you were trying to make.    These teenage punks are spoiled. 

[aaniadyen]

If the witcher is focusing on physics and graphics this early in it's development, I hate to see what the actual game will be like. That trailer posted above was all about shiney new aspects to the game that don't really impact it in any way. What I'd be more worried about is gameplay, and fixing the issues the witcher 1 had that made a lot of people have an aversion to it. I seriously don't understand why the put so much effort into graphics if they're so early in development, considering 1. By the time the game comes out those graphics will get a head start when heading toward looking antiquated. 2. graphics aren't critical to the game. If their publisher wants them to ship later, that's great, but if they want them to ship early, what are they going to do? Leave out story elements and quests?

[Onyx Jaguar]

At least all three of these games have good looking character models



Compare that to ****ing new XCOM, Bioshock games, ****ing Fable, ETC

[jasonirma]

Is it unreasonable to expect the company that set the high bar for graphics and story captured in one of their own products (specifically ME2) to achieve once again in a game with a publish date >1 year later?



I'm hearing a lot of people in this thread saying that they don't want an "ME2 graphics engine but with swords". Why not? No one is questioning BW's capabilities at storycrafting: they are incredible (sufficiently that I've actually purchased game-related novels (totally unexpected of me, to be sure)).



Again: if BW was capable of creating ME2, why shouldn't the OP's opinion be valid? I agree with her, for starters. Graphics do matter. And, FWIW, Bioware has a history of making high-integrity, high-quality games. That DA2 is coming out so fast off of DA:O and that the graphics don't nearly as polished right now does feel a bit like BW is cheating DA2 a bit. It just feels disonant with the goal to push the envelope of quality for which BW is so well regarded.



I'm open to seeing how things evolve and how the quality changes over time. But after ME2, my expectations of what is possible in a well-crafted RPG have changed. ME2 proved that I can have my cake and eat it too. Story+graphics=immersion.



Graphics matter or there wouldn't be a demand for higher quality graphics in games: everything would still be text. Whether you think that's a "spoiled" point of view or not, it is much harder for me to savor games without the extravagance. Sure, I fire up Plants vs. Zombies and enjoy it for what it is, but I would be hard-pressed to call that game immersive. I expect games, linear or otherwise, that are story-based to have bells and whistles now.



Last rambling point: I am a BW fan and stand amazed at what I get when I see the BW logo on an opening screen. They have my brand loyalty and the dollars to back it. I just want to see them deliver products that successively outdo each other, and continue to dazzle, fluffy neck collars included .

[Onyx Jaguar]

I'd assume it would be maximizing the use of an engine. For starters ME 2 runs on a different engine than DA:O did. Switching over would be an issue.