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Blunt Question: Why are the Graphics So Bad?


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#151
jasonirma

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Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I'd assume it would be maximizing the use of an engine. For starters ME 2 runs on a different engine than DA:O did. Switching over would be an issue.


I'm assuming that the DA2 engine is different from DA:O.  Given that they had to redo all of the art properties to make DA2, presumably with a different engine to support these changes, it begs the question of why not using the ME2 engine to drive DA2 graphics?  I don't think that would be any more of an overhaul than making DA2 to begin with.  But I'm not a designer, so I can only speculate.

#152
Guest_slimgrin_*

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jasonirma wrote...
 That DA2 is coming out so fast off of DA:O and that the graphics don't nearly as polished right now does feel a bit like BW is cheating DA2 a bit. .


I've never been able to get a clear answer on just how long DA2 has been in development. They could have been working on it before DAO was released.

#153
nightcobra

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jasonirma wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I'd assume it would be maximizing the use of an engine. For starters ME 2 runs on a different engine than DA:O did. Switching over would be an issue.


I'm assuming that the DA2 engine is different from DA:O.  Given that they had to redo all of the art properties to make DA2, presumably with a different engine to support these changes, it begs the question of why not using the ME2 engine to drive DA2 graphics?  I don't think that would be any more of an overhaul than making DA2 to begin with.  But I'm not a designer, so I can only speculate.


i think the devs said it's the same engine of origins that's it's being used for DA2, but optimized. that's one of the reasons why the development time is shorter since they're now used to working with the engine.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 02 octobre 2010 - 07:55 .


#154
asaiasai

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SpiderFan1217 wrote...

asaiasai wrote...

I think most of you are spoiled today, i remember playing Taipan on the trs-80, all text, what graphics there were were pretty low res, explosions consisted of some screen flicker, you want color do not worry about it we have 2, black and white.

It is a balancing act, content vs pretty that is the choice the company and the player makes. Look at ME2 it looks great on my PC but it is a weak game, the interface sucks among other things. Now look at DAO it does not look as good as ME2 did but DAO was a far superior game. I myself would rather the balance be more towards content as DAO was than towards pretty as ME2, but that is probably the old timer in me.

Asai


While I disagree with your comparison of DA and ME2. (I loved everything about that game.) I agree with the point you were trying to make.  Posted Image  These teenage punks are spoiled.  Posted Image


I realize there is an age difference and i am somewhat of a minority ( a hard core gamer over 40) but as i have no kids, no bills, no wife,  and i have no intention of making/collecting any of the listed, i can afford the high end computer components to make a serious game computer. My computers can handle anything the industry wants to throw at it, and when they can not we upgrade to more than is necessary. But even with that graphics IS NEVER the primary consideration as to whether i will purchase a game. There has to be a reason to buy a game,  just because it is pretty (Crysis) is not enough of a reason to buy a game. Crysis looks great, runs great, and plays just fine but as it is a shooter (and as i have been shooting people in the face on the internet for 15 years now) Crysis just does not offer anything other than fancy graphics that is worth buying.

I look at ME2 and i see what was done from ME to ME2 and for all intensive purposes i am just going to spit it out, ME2 was an over hyped expansion pack for ME that took a step backwards. They minimized or removed important game play aspects, namely the interface, (seriously use, cover, sprint all taged to one key) no crouch key at all, removal of the character customization options by no inventory, the special armors have non removable helmets, the missions seem to be more of a time sink than anything else lest folks complain the game is even shorter than it was. All of the good stuff that made ME good was "streamlined" out of the game but in comparison to ME, IT REALLY LOOKED GOOD.  I mean WTF is that? My point is that ME2 looks night and day better than ME but ME2 is so much less of a game than ME it seems a poor trade off to get good looks to attract the ADD crowd, at the expense of quality game play. I am not going to buy ME3 unless Bioware fixes those problems. I am on a PC, and an expensive one that i built, so if Bioware has to streamline and minimize ME3 because of the poor hardware of the consoles so be it just so long as the PC version is unaffected.

I am willing to give Bioware the benefit of the doubt with DA2, they earned it with DAO, they also earned pre order status for ME2 because ME was good, but if they ME2, DA2, the next Bioware game i buy if any will come from the bargain bin. There has to be a game there, there has to be a reason to double click the desktop icon, and i am saying fancy graphics are not enough, at least for me. I would much rather a game have depth in content and story than look pretty, pretty will get boring real quick with out substance. Do not get me wrong i do not hate ME2 but it is no ME and it is certainly no DAO, and that is where the **** up is.

Asai

#155
Nerevar-as

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ME2 is mostly linear scenarios. No point comparing to DA, it´s the same as when people complained Fallout 3 had worse graphics than Gears of War.

The Witcher 2 might be a better example, but AFAIK it´s the only game they are doing and it´s only being programmed for PC so far.

#156
Lord Gremlin

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One should not demand from multiplatform title graphics like from high-budged PS3 or PC exclusive. Graphics is something I forgive developers for in case of Dragon Age. When I want graphics I replay Crysis, God of War 3 or Uncharted 2.

One can always want more, but as far as I know DA2 can't afford to require quad-core as minimum requirement for PC or ditch 360 version.

#157
AlexXIV

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I'm just wondering, if the story is DA2 selling argument then why is it shorter than DA:O even without multiple origins and less character custimization. Just curious, you know. I take it then, the story is shorter, but greater? I am sorry but when did Bioware make great stories for their games? They are nice, good, fine. etc. But where do they get great? I mean even DA:O mostly loaned from other fantasy products, there is nothing really unique or earth shaking to it. Maybe DA2 is different but ... who knows.

#158
Fishy

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StingingVelvet wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Good to see another thread sort of devolve into a Witcher debate.


It's a pretty epic looking game :D


Don't forget that a lot of demo have their graphic/shadow/texture and resolution locked.
Those screenshot are taken from a public demo(not the qunari one) . The screenshot from the witcher 2 come from the developper .

Wait for an official gameplay release from bioware.Those are just leaked footage from a cam during a public demo with lot of locked stuff.

So bioware what are you waiting for?Waiting for EA approval?
Let's put some pressure on them!! I'm sure they have enough pressure already but still!

#159
Quercus

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I actually think the graphics of DA2 are pretty good.

Do know that screenshots and playing a game have a different touch on it as well. I for example played the demo at Gamescom and the first thing I thought was that the graphics look better then the ones I saw in the screenshots.



That said, I still believe the graphics could have been better, but it's really a problem for Bioware to pull that off when EA is publishing them. EA gives them a strait deadline, and they want to make as much money as possible which means multi-platform. A beautiful looking game like The Witcher 2 don't have that problem, CDProject will only release the game on PC, and has more flexibility with a release date.

#160
hxx7y

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Chris Priestly wrote...

They aren't.

Don't compare graphics from a cutscene with actual gameplay. If you want to compare teh Lost Planet cutscenes to our Digic trailer, go ahead, that would be valid.

And don't compare a game in it's final stable, shipped condition to a screenshot from a game 8 months away (at the time of the picture) from launch.

While our graphics will be much better by the time we ship, keep in mind we have oodles more dialog, writing and content then Lost Planet (which I finished and enjoyed a fair bit). We will ALWAYS put more dialog, story and content in our games than worry about making sure the fur trim is fluffy enough. Just sayin'




:devil:






flawless victory

#161
SirShreK

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AlexXIV wrote...

I'm just wondering, if the story is DA2 selling argument then why is it shorter than DA:O even without multiple origins and less character custimization. Just curious, you know. I take it then, the story is shorter, but greater? I am sorry but when did Bioware make great stories for their games? They are nice, good, fine. etc. But where do they get great? I mean even DA:O mostly loaned from other fantasy products, there is nothing really unique or earth shaking to it. Maybe DA2 is different but ... who knows.


The great story part basically pertains to better characterization in most minds (again relatively speaking fo course!), methinks.  The stories they had were poor but relatively very good when you think of most other games out there..... NWN, Jade Empire (except the part about hidden weakness of the PC), BGs, KOTOR had badly done stories but a few memorable characters like Master Li and  "Here comes Halfling Death".

On the other hand I would agree that DA:O though has freely "borrowed" from other fantasy settings, is a marvelous job even on Inspiration!

Modifié par SirShreK, 02 octobre 2010 - 11:57 .


#162
StingingVelvet

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SpiderFan1217 wrote...

While I disagree with your comparison of DA and ME2. (I loved everything about that game.) I agree with the point you were trying to make.  Posted Image  These teenage punks are spoiled.  Posted Image


I'm 30 years old and said repeteadly that I am playing a 10 year old RPG right now, and indeed play older games as much as newer ones.

If you're going to be condescending, at least know about the person you are talking down to.

Here are some simple facts: graphics do NOT make a game.  I know this.  Graphics are much worse than the DA2 shots in games that are amazing, like Arcanum, Gothic 2, KOTOR and Fallout.  I know this.  I am not saying the graphics need to be more impressive for the game to be good and I am not saying graphics are more important than story, characters or gameplay.

I wish people would stop with these tired comebacks that mean nothing to the original post or topic at hand.  Just because all the above things are true and graphics are not the essential factor in the games does not mean they are not important, or that they shouldn't look better.

Dragon Age 2 is a AAA game from a well-funded studio under the banner of EA, a mega-publisher.  It will sell for $60 and will have a massive ad campaign behind it.  Given all those factors there is no reason for it to look as low-res and lacking in detail as it does.

Priestly already said the game will look much better before it releases, so in a sense he agrees the current shots do not show the game at its best.  I'm not being weird here.

#163
vania z

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Modifié par vania z, 02 octobre 2010 - 02:23 .


#164
AlanC9

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asaiasai wrote...
I look at ME2 and i see what was done from ME to ME2 and for all intensive purposes i am just going to spit it out, ME2 was an over hyped expansion pack for ME that took a step backwards. They minimized or removed important game play aspects, namely the interface, (seriously use, cover, sprint all taged to one key) no crouch key at all, removal of the character customization options by no inventory, the special armors have non removable helmets, the missions seem to be more of a time sink than anything else lest folks complain the game is even shorter than it was. All of the good stuff that made ME good was "streamlined" out of the game but in comparison to ME, IT REALLY LOOKED GOOD.  I mean WTF is that? My point is that ME2 looks night and day better than ME but ME2 is so much less of a game than ME it seems a poor trade off to get good looks to attract the ADD crowd, at the expense of quality game play.


I don't think the tradeoff assumed here makes too much sense. ME1's inventory was pretty brain-dead, so yanking it couldn't have saved all that many zots. Interface is more on the porting team. Mission length, maybe.

Modifié par AlanC9, 02 octobre 2010 - 02:43 .


#165
tmp7704

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StingingVelvet wrote...

It looks alright, but everything below the neck is low-res and shoddy looking to some extent.  The fur is the worst, but also look at the string and how flat it is as part of the overall texture, and how low-res the metal and straps are.  In 2011 I expect more from a huge and well-funded studio pumping out $60 games.

It might be the VRAM limitations as I said before and we might see higher resolution textures on the PC... I hope so.

You realize that screenshot is at 1920x1175 resolution and it's cloesup of the character filling half of it, yet on the most parts you can't really see the blend between individual pixels? Your definition of "low-res" is pretty odd, especially when the screenshot you posted earlier as comparison to it was much worse overall in this regard, and yet you left that unmentioned because it didn't fit the "eeew, see 4 year old game looks better" argument.

#166
GreenSoda

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AlexXIV wrote...



I'm just wondering, if the story is DA2 selling argument then why is it shorter than DA:O even without multiple origins and less character custimization. Just curious, you know. I take it then, the story is shorter, but greater? I am sorry but when did Bioware make great stories for their games? They are nice, good, fine. etc. But where do they get great? I mean even DA:O mostly loaned from other fantasy products, there is nothing really unique or earth shaking to it. Maybe DA2 is different but ... who knows.




Having a fully voiced PC is the main reason DA2 will be significantly shorter than DA:O.

#167
KLUME777

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Honestly, coming from a PS3 player, the graphics on Origins were not that bad, it didn't cross my mind at all, in fact i admired the art style and levels (a lot more than Uncharted 2).



Although i must admit, DAO looks better on a normal analog T.V., rather than a HD wide screen. Smaller screen and stuff makes it look better.

#168
Nerevar-as

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GreenSoda wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I'm just wondering, if the story is DA2 selling argument then why is it shorter than DA:O even without multiple origins and less character custimization. Just curious, you know. I take it then, the story is shorter, but greater? I am sorry but when did Bioware make great stories for their games? They are nice, good, fine. etc. But where do they get great? I mean even DA:O mostly loaned from other fantasy products, there is nothing really unique or earth shaking to it. Maybe DA2 is different but ... who knows.


Having a fully voiced PC is the main reason DA2 will be significantly shorter than DA:O.


If true this is worrying, as it will be a shorter game with longer coversations (unless you read really slow), so gameplay will be where the shorter time will be felt. While I don´t think the story should be forcibly long just for the sake of it, if content gets cut then I see no point in VO. It should be an extra, to me it´s not worth game lenght besides race choice (of this one I´m quite certain).

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 02 octobre 2010 - 03:54 .


#169
sw33t nothings

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 Maybe it's because I'm one of those crazy artists, but I seem to have a different view on graphics then most of my gamer friends. I don't nitpick about the textures and the res as long as the overall image 'works'. I'm more of a fan of graphics that evoke emotions and give a sense of atmosphere then who has the best rendering. Composition, style choices, colouring and I'll say it again just because it's that important- composition! From what I've seen of the DA2 screens so far, they have very dynamic compositions which I think will be very evocative and look fantastic in motion. 

I'm happily optimistic. I liked DA:Os graphics, but I openly welcome improvement, which I think there will be, since they're more comfortable with the engine and have played around and tweaked it. 

I also feel that video games being a fluid medium, that is, one with motion and movement, it's not exactly fair to judge it's visual impact by stills alone. I'd take a game with sweeping vistas and cinematic angles over stationary photorealism any day. But that's just me :whistle:

Modifié par sw33t nothings, 02 octobre 2010 - 04:01 .


#170
StingingVelvet

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tmp7704 wrote...

You realize that screenshot is at 1920x1175 resolution and it's cloesup of the character filling half of it, yet on the most parts you can't really see the blend between individual pixels? Your definition of "low-res" is pretty odd, especially when the screenshot you posted earlier as comparison to it was much worse overall in this regard, and yet you left that unmentioned because it didn't fit the "eeew, see 4 year old game looks better" argument.


Huh?  The textures are low-res, it has nothing to do with the picture resolution.

#171
aaniadyen

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StingingVelvet wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

You realize that screenshot is at 1920x1175 resolution and it's cloesup of the character filling half of it, yet on the most parts you can't really see the blend between individual pixels? Your definition of "low-res" is pretty odd, especially when the screenshot you posted earlier as comparison to it was much worse overall in this regard, and yet you left that unmentioned because it didn't fit the "eeew, see 4 year old game looks better" argument.


Huh?  The textures are low-res, it has nothing to do with the picture resolution.


God forbid they use low res placeholder textures for alpha.

#172
StingingVelvet

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sw33t nothings wrote...

 Maybe it's because I'm one of those crazy artists, but I seem to have a different view on graphics then most of my gamer friends. I don't nitpick about the textures and the res as long as the overall image 'works'. I'm more of a fan of graphics that evoke emotions and give a sense of atmosphere then who has the best rendering. Composition, style choices, colouring and I'll say it again just because it's that important- composition! From what I've seen of the DA2 screens so far, they have very dynamic compositions which I think will be very evocative and look fantastic in motion. 

I'm happily optimistic. I liked DA:Os graphics, but I openly welcome improvement, which I think there will be, since they're more comfortable with the engine and have played around and tweaked it. 

I also feel that video games being a fluid medium, that is, one with motion and movement, it's not exactly fair to judge it's visual impact by stills alone. I'd take a game with sweeping vistas and cinematic angles over stationary photorealism any day. But that's just me :whistle:


There are many elements to making a good looking game and design is chief among them.  I still think Morrowind is a brilliant looking 3D game despite the low-res textures and such because the design is brilliant.  That said, all these pics have shown so far is rocky desert, and the textures are so bad it hurts the design.

I look forward to seeing better in the future.

#173
StingingVelvet

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aaniadyen wrote...

God forbid they use low res placeholder textures for alpha.


If that ends up being the case then YAY.  I would be happy to know that.  This thread is about seeking to know if that is the case, it's not an attack thread on the final product which as of now does not exist.

I do have to say though, how many times do developers release promo shots with worse graphics than the main game?  It's rare, they usually want to put their best foot forward.  You are assuming something based on not a lot of precedent.

Modifié par StingingVelvet, 02 octobre 2010 - 04:05 .


#174
sw33t nothings

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StingingVelvet wrote...


There are many elements to making a good looking game and design is chief among them.  I still think Morrowind is a brilliant looking 3D game despite the low-res textures and such because the design is brilliant.  That said, all these pics have shown so far is rocky desert, and the textures are so bad it hurts the design.

I look forward to seeing better in the future.


I respectfully disagree. I think that the barren landscape was chosen for a reason, and it's very atmospheric. It really highlights how horribly destructive the Blight is. I highly, highly doubt the entire game will look like this. Maybe the Devs are quietly giggling manically to themselves because they know what's in store for you when you hit Kirkwall, or other places we may travel too. It's my feeling that the barren landscape is a style choice, and a valid moody one at that. 

If I am mistaken, come March I will eat this post.

#175
KLUME777

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sw33t nothings wrote...

 Maybe it's because I'm one of those crazy artists, but I seem to have a different view on graphics then most of my gamer friends. I don't nitpick about the textures and the res as long as the overall image 'works'. I'm more of a fan of graphics that evoke emotions and give a sense of atmosphere then who has the best rendering. Composition, style choices, colouring and I'll say it again just because it's that important- composition! From what I've seen of the DA2 screens so far, they have very dynamic compositions which I think will be very evocative and look fantastic in motion. 

I'm happily optimistic. I liked DA:Os graphics, but I openly welcome improvement, which I think there will be, since they're more comfortable with the engine and have played around and tweaked it. 

I also feel that video games being a fluid medium, that is, one with motion and movement, it's not exactly fair to judge it's visual impact by stills alone. I'd take a game with sweeping vistas and cinematic angles over stationary photorealism any day. But that's just me :whistle:



I completeley agree with you. Have you ever played Killzone 2? It has the best graphics for a 1st person shooter ever (Discounting Crysis of coarse). The game sucks and looks bad though. Why? It looks boring as hell, there is no art at all. Just a bland, grey city, and a bland, brown desert. For the whole game (which is 6 hours long, i finished it quicker than MW2).

DAO had great artistic syle and, more importantly, diversity, something Killzone 2 lacked. DAO also had top notch cinimatic scenes. Im talking about camera angles and placements and  directing, that sorta thing. The cinematic director deserves a medal, really.