295 réponses à ce sujet

[Crippledcarny]

Murder is a legal term that would imply someone has killed another and has broken a law in doing so. Walking up to someone and shooting them in the head on the street is murder. Shooting someone breaking into your home is killing.

Killing Loghain is just that, killing. It is not murder and it's a pretty easy argument to say killing him is the lawful thing to do. The good part, however, is still in question.

I know it's nitpicking, but I am some what bothered by how people don't seem to understand the difference between killing and murder.

Modifié par Crippledcarny, 02 octobre 2010 - 03:13 .

[Sarethus]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I would guess that many spare Loghain for this reason, yes. Just like others kill Loghain because they too think they are playing "good characters".

Haha, that put a smile on my face. All those hypocrits saying they play a "good" hero and then brutally murder someone who just surrendered. LAWFUL GOOD, huh?

Depends on why you are killing him. Killing Loghain out of some sick sadistic pleasure you feel at spilling blood is murder but killing Loghain out of a sense of justice and punishment for his actions could be considered good. Consider Alistair, he is arguably the most  "good" member of the party and he wants Loghain dead due to his actions at Ostagar and after Ostagar as well. 

Another point to consider is that your not just killing someone who just surrendered, but in a midevil (Feralden) society, Your character is effectivly judge, jury and executioner upon winning the duel. Your not necessarily murdering someone but you are executing them.   

[errant_knight]

He yielded knowing the punishment for the treason he was accused of, not thinking he was going to prison or the like. It's no different than if someone gives themselves up to the police in a death penalty state, in my opinion. The penalty doesn't change because they give themselves up.

[Sarah1281]

Consider Alistair, he is arguably the most "good" member of the party and he wants Loghain dead due to his actions at Ostagar and after Ostagar as well.

Yeah, I wouldn't consider Alistair to be acting in a moral manner at the Landsmeet. He wants vengeance. Regardless of whether or not Alistair deserves it, he's hardly being a paragon of virtue here.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Crippledcarny wrote...
Killing Loghain is just that, killing. It is not murder and it's a pretty easy argument to say killing him is the lawful thing to do. The good part, however, is still in question.

While the terms of the duel were "until one party yields", the Landsmeet also says that they will abide by whatever the winner dcecides. So I agree, it's perfectly legal to execute him.
It is also perfectly legal to conscript him into the Grey Wardens.

So legality is a moot point here, whether you execute Loghain or conscript him, you are not overstepping legal bounds.

Whether it's "good" or not will remain a subjective opinion and all discussion about it will probably go on forever, with little point.

So maybe the thread can save itself quite a lot of time and jump directly to the inevitable conclusion that there are valid reasons, both instrumental / pragmatic and idealistic / moral, to execute or spare Loghain. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 02 octobre 2010 - 04:12 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Consider Alistair, he is arguably the most "good" member of the party and he wants Loghain dead due to his actions at Ostagar and after Ostagar as well.

He also happens to be one of the most naive. And I question his reasons for wanting to kill Loghain.

[errant_knight]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Crippledcarny wrote...
Killing Loghain is just that, killing. It is not murder and it's a pretty easy argument to say killing him is the lawful thing to do. The good part, however, is still in question.

While the terms of the duel were "until one party yields", the Landmseet also says that they will abide by whatever the winner dcecides. So I agree, it's perfectly legal to execute him.
It is also perfectly legal to conscript him into the Grey Wardens.

So legality is a moot point here, whether you execute Loghain or conscript him, you are not overstepping legal bounds.

Whether it's "good" or not will remain a subjective opinion and all discussion about it will probably go on forever, with little point.

So maybe the thread can save itself quite a lot of time and jump directly to the inevitable conclusion that there are valid reasons, both instrumental / pragmatic and idealistic / moral, to execute or spare Loghain. 

KoP has the right of it. The writers were very concious of making both choiced arguably correct. Edit: Of course, then he implies that one choice is more right in the next post, so there ya go.

Modifié par errant_knight, 02 octobre 2010 - 04:14 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

errant_knight wrote...
Edit: Of course, then he implies that one choice is more right in the next post, so there ya go.

No, I did not.
I question if what Alistair is adamant about is doing "good" or getting revenge.

I was not talking about what your PC thinks in that situation. They can kill Loghain for "good"'s sake and not be motivated by revenge.

[Xilizhra]

I don't think any of my wardens will want to kill Loghain, but I plan to get around that by choosing Alistair as my champion so that he's autokilled.

[CalJones]

I think the interesting point the OP was making is that whether executing Loghain when Alistair demands it will make a tyrant of him. The epilogue suggests not, but I definitely don't think the Landsmeet was Alistair's finest hour. I had liked him immensely up until that point, but the first time I spared Loghain I saw a whole new side to him that I didn't like one bit. I definitely wouldn't want to see that side of him again, and I can't help but thinking letting him have his vengeance is a mistake.

[errant_knight]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
Edit: Of course, then he implies that one choice is more right in the next post, so there ya go.

No, I did not.
I question if what Alistair is adamant about is doing "good" or getting revenge.

I was not talking about what your PC thinks in that situation. They can kill Loghain for "good"'s sake and not be motivated by revenge.

Ah! Well, in that case, no, I don't think he's motivated by revenge, but by a very strong belief that it's the only course of action that it just, in the same way that my PC believes that Howe has to die to acheive justice for the Cousland family and retainers. To him, it's not an act of revenge, but proper justice, and that no other course of action is adequate. He sees making him a warden as rewarding him for horrible crimes.

Modifié par errant_knight, 02 octobre 2010 - 04:55 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

errant_knight wrote...
Ah! Well, in that case, no, I don't think he's motivated by revenge, but by a very strong belief that it's the only course of action that it just, in the same way that my PC believes that Howe has to die to acheive justice for the Cousland family and retainers. To him, it's not an act of revenge, but proper justice, and that no other course of action is adequate.

And I disagree, but I don't want to get into that discussion again and here is not the place. So I'll leave it at that

[Zjarcal]

CalJones wrote...

That's a reason I can actually agree with. I like Anora but damn, that high-pitched screaming... That's the point at which I usually go and put the kettle on.
Having said that, I prefer her eulogy to Alistair's for a warden who does the US.

Heh, I see am not the only one who prefers her eulogy. Not that it matters much to me since I never finish my games with a US ending, but I also think she does a much better job in paying tribute to the Warden.

But her rallying speech.... 

[Zjarcal]

errant_knight wrote...
...in the same way that my PC believes that Howe has to die to acheive justice for the Cousland family and retainers.

I completely agree with this but I've always wondered if there are people who, if given the choice, would spare Howe. Should we have a separate thread for that or hijack this one?

[errant_knight]

Zjarcal wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
...in the same way that my PC believes that Howe has to die to acheive justice for the Cousland family and retainers.

I completely agree with this but I've always wondered if there are people who, if given the choice, would spare Howe. Should we have a separate thread for that or hijack this one?

That's a good idea for a thread, I think. I'll have to join you later though. Off to the mountains for the day--yay!

[errant_knight]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
Ah! Well, in that case, no, I don't think he's motivated by revenge, but by a very strong belief that it's the only course of action that it just, in the same way that my PC believes that Howe has to die to acheive justice for the Cousland family and retainers. To him, it's not an act of revenge, but proper justice, and that no other course of action is adequate.

And I disagree, but I don't want to get into that discussion again and here is not the place. So I'll leave it at that

Good idea, we've been there, done that, with great thoroughness.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
I completely agree with this but I've always wondered if there are people who, if given the choice, would spare Howe. Should we have a separate thread for that or hijack this one?

Well barring the fact that Loghain and Howe are very differrent and one is useful and the other not so much, I say I would still avoid killing him if I had the choice and would rather have him stand trial. I dislike being forced to murder him in his home.

[Giggles_Manically]

I would have made Howe a warden...

If he somehow had survived the final battle I would have Zevran knife him.



Once the crisis is over than he is not needed.

[Addai]

wickedgoodreed wrote...

Yep, I've spared Loghain for that reason. Particularly because the terms of the "honorable duel" are that it's "fought according to tradition...until one party yields" and not to the death. My wardens who are "good" typically abide by that sort of thing. Regardless of their personal feelings for Loghain and his actions, they accept his surrender of rule on the assumption that sentencing for his crimes will be sorted out later. Of course the whole scenario snowballs from there given Alistair's reaction...

I see what happens after the duel as not part of the duel but as execution (bad pun, sorry) of justice so that the country can move forward with the civil war ended once and for all.  Leaving the leaders of a coup alive with their troops intact is an invitation for that to continue.  So, if the Warden loses the vote, Loghain calls for your execution, and if he loses via duel, you are in your rights to do the same.  You are basically acting under the authority the Landsmeet has given you.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
I completely agree with this but I've always wondered if there are people who, if given the choice, would spare Howe. Should we have a separate thread for that or hijack this one?

Well barring the fact that Loghain and Howe are very differrent and one is useful and the other not so much, I say I would still avoid killing him if I had the choice and would rather have him stand trial. I dislike being forced to murder him in his home.

Well, I didn't want to compare him to Loghain as I also believe these are very different cases, but the questionhas been on my mind for quite a while and since errant brought it up...

As for me, sorry, vigilante justice is what my PC is all about. I will agree that the act itself is a crime no matter how much "justice is being served" but my PC (and myself for that matter) is a bit too careless about the law to let that get in her judgment.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
As for me, sorry, vigilante justice is what my PC is all about. I will agree that the act itself is a crime no matter how much "justice is being served" but my PC (and myself for that matter) is a bit too careless about the law to let that get in her judgment.

And that's ok. My PC wants to be King Consort hwoever and his public image is important (he didn't mind stealing from nobles hwoever, as long as no one knows).

[naledgeborn]

As a Human Noble it's about uniting Fereldan against the Blight. I spared Loghain because he surrendered. What would killing him gain? Nothing. If anything ardent Loghain supporters would disaffect from the Throne if he's painted as a villain. Making him a Warden makes his supporters Warden supporters. As long as Alistair is king to keep Anora's pragmatism in check Fereldan is in good hands. Anora has the political prowess to keep the throne in power and Orlesian influence to a minimum. And in the end the Wardens get the credit for stopping the blight. Win-win situation for everybody. I do however take the Dark Ritual for LI and selfish reasons, but also because Loghain stabbing a dragon to right all his wrongs is too easy.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And that's ok. My PC wants to be King Consort hwoever and his public image is important (he didn't mind stealing from nobles hwoever, as long as no one knows).

Hehe, maybe one day Slim Couldry will relate the tales of Robin Hoo... ahem, Arcturus Cousland. Would Arcturus try to "quiet" Slim Couldry in that case?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And that's ok. My PC wants to be King Consort hwoever and his public image is important (he didn't mind stealing from nobles hwoever, as long as no one knows).

Hehe, maybe one day Slim Couldry will relate the tales of Robin Hoo... ahem, Arcturus Cousland. Would Arcturus try to "quiet" Slim Couldry in that case?

If he wants to open his mouth, then he will be silenced. But I don't think he will.
Plus, very conveniently for me, another Dark Wolf showed up and the old one (me) is thought to be dead.
Excellent.

[mauss]

My warden is not a good character and he will spare Loghain. My warden is evil and he likes other evil people. Also my warden will be king so he has no use for Alistair. My last warden was a good guy and he let Alistair kill Loghain, but I did feel bad mainly because he surrendered. It's hard to kill a man ready to accept death. That's why I let Alistair do it. But I don't think killing Loghain makes you an evil tyrant. Alistair had a personal reason for wanting Loghain dead, he abandoned Cailan and Duncan, people Alistair cared about, so he felt Loghain's crimes were unjustifiable. Wanting to avenge Cailan and Duncan's deaths doesn't make him a tyrant.