295 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

naledgeborn wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

Yes it's justice in the form of reward but it doesn't stop there. There are going to be consequences subtle or otherwise in the form of penalties for eliminating your rival that way. 

There could be positives for doing so, as well.

Obviously if not he wouldn't have done it in the first place. Him eliminating his rival and placing the blame on the oncoming vehicle is his immediate reward (along with other down the road) but his actions are goin start a chain of events that would inevitably catch up to him in the form of justice ("good" or "bad".

So, are we back to the regicide argument again?

[TJPags]

naledgeborn wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

Yes it's justice in the form of reward but it doesn't stop there. There are going to be consequences subtle or otherwise in the form of penalties for eliminating your rival that way. 

There could be positives for doing so, as well.

Obviously if not he wouldn't have done it in the first place. Him eliminating his rival and placing the blame on the oncoming vehicle is his immediate reward (along with other down the road) but his actions are goin start a chain of events that would inevitably catch up to him in the form of justice ("good" or "bad".

That's karma, not justice. 

I think.

Are we really defining justice now? 

[naledgeborn]

I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, this is philosophical debate you know.This is just my understanding of a word that gets wrongly synonymized with righteousness.

[tool_bot]

I'm pretty sure this hypothetical blue falcon ends up shacking up with the poor dead fool's girlfriend and getting great sex from the grieving woman.

[KnightofPhoenix]

naledgeborn wrote...

Doesn't have to be divine or spiritual. As much as I would like I can't prove those things but Newton's Laws of motion can be applied to this scenario in principle.

Every action will have a reaction. The reaction however doesn't have to be a penalty / reward adequate for the action. An action worthy of reward can cause a reaction that will result in punishment (like sacrificing your life for something you value). Not to mention that an act ytou do, can have consequences on people who have no responsability over it.

So to return to my example, I don't see how I'll suffer any penalties for my action. Unless it's a penalty caused by some other action I did, or something completely outside of my control. In either case, it has nothign to do with my original act and the fact that these happened to me would be attributed to chance / coincidence (or divine intervention if you believe in it) and not really a law. 

[naledgeborn]

tool_bot wrote...

I'm pretty sure this hypothetical blue falcon ends up shacking up with the poor dead fool's girlfriend and getting great sex from the grieving woman.

Haha that's mos def a way to look at it.

[naledgeborn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

Doesn't have to be divine or spiritual. As much as I would like I can't prove those things but Newton's Laws of motion can be applied to this scenario in principle.

Every action will have a reaction. The reaction however doesn't have to be a penalty / reward adequate for the action. An action worthy of reward can cause a reaction that will result in punishment (like sacrificing your life for something you value). Not to mention that an act ytou do, can have consequences on people who have no responsability over it.

So to return to my example, I don't see how I'll suffer any penalties for my action. Unless it's a penalty caused by some other action I did, or something completely outside of my control. In either case, it has nothign to do with my original act and the fact that these happened to me would be attributed to chance / coincidence (or divine intervention if you believe in it) and not really a law. 

That's what I'm saying though. Sacrificing ones life for a worthy cause will produce a reward for that cause, but a punishment for the one doing the sacrifice. Justice is a double edged sword. It's not good or evil. It's just there. So cutting Loghain's head off is justice or making him go through the Joining is justice.

[Monica21]

naledgeborn wrote...
That's what I'm saying though. Sacrificing ones life for a worthy cause will produce a reward for that cause, but a punishment for the one doing the sacrifice. Justice is a double edged sword. It's not good or evil. It's just there. So cutting Loghain's head off is justice or making him go through the Joining is justice.

Wait, a reward for who? Because if I sacrifice my life for a worthy cause I'm still just as dead. And what if I die on the battlefield? Is my opponent punished, or is his cause just as worthy as mine? What or who determines what is "worthy"?

[KnightofPhoenix]

naledgeborn wrote...
That's what I'm saying though. Sacrificing ones life for a worthy cause will produce a reward for that cause, but a punishment for the one doing the sacrifice. Justice is a double edged sword. It's not good or evil. It's just there. So cutting Loghain's head off is justice or making him go through the Joining is justice.

I don't believe in "good" or "evil", so it's not an issue.
By that logic, every action is just because it has a reaction, regardless whether it's reward or punishment for the party responsable for the act. So, if I may be so bold, I would say you believe in some sort of "natural justice" (to avoid calling it karma) that just exists and sorts itself out. Interesting.

Not saying you are wrong. But I disagree, not necessarily on whether it exists or not (I am an ignorant limited human afterall), but on its usefullness / rationality. Suffice to say if I was responsable for a community, I would punish an act if I deem it necessary and I will not wait for this "natural justice" to do that on its own.

[naledgeborn]

That's a whole other debate. Haha, I'm done sounding like Kreia. Worth is a subjective idea too.

[Elhanan]

Another inquiry: Does Loghain still wish to sacrifice himself at end game if one has not bothered to gain Approval as the Warden?

[CalJones]

Yes.

[Asepsis]

Loghain was a good guy, he just got lost along the way, which happens with lots of power. Even Maric remarks that Loghain changed a bit after Ferelden was united again. I seriously loved Loghain in the books, and you can even tell during the game and in the cut scenes that what he has done is weighing heavily on him.



I think Loghain's death was his way of paying Ferelden back for what he did. I'm all for forgiveness, but seriously, he killed hundreds/thousands (Not sure how many were at Ostagar) of good soldiers, and a bunch of Wardens and threw Ferelden into civil war. I think letting him die is letting people know you can't be a tyrant just because you think you're right and get away with it just because you're or were a hero. It let people know that no one is above others, including the hero of River Dane. I mean, I really don't think letting hoards of Orlesians into Ferelden was a good idea, but I think letting Cailan and his soldiers die, selling Elves into slavery and forcing people off their land was worse.



With that said, I wish they allowed you to discover that Warden's die when killing the arch demon BEFORE the landsmeet, since I think Loghain killing the arch demon and sacrificing himself is the best form of atonement for his character. It's the best way for both Alistair and the Warden to survive without the whole ritual thing with Morrigon. I just wish you didn't have to lose Alistair's friendship over making Loghain pay his due with that route.

[Elhanan]

My friendship w/Alistair remains intact in my conclusions. While he does stay away until then, this also places him out of harm's way; my nod at our friendship as well.

How I love to play as a Master Manipulating Mage.

[Sarah1281]

I think Loghain's death was his way of paying Ferelden back for what he did. I'm all for forgiveness, but seriously, he killed hundreds/thousands (Not sure how many were at Ostagar) of good soldiers, and a bunch of Wardens and threw Ferelden into civil war.

He didn't kill anyone at Ostagar. He did not attempt to save them and we do not know whether he would have succeeded if he had. I doubt he could have saved the Wardens as, being the most dangerous to the darkspawn, the darkspawn likely went straight for them.

And Loghain was not the sole cause of the Civil War. The Bannorn, who are documented as fighting over ANYTHING, took advantage of the vacancy on the throne to have a 'We don't have to listen to Denerim' fit and ignored the Blight just as surely as Loghain did. A more skilled politician might have been able to calm them down but there's really no guarantee.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 04 octobre 2010 - 06:40 .

[Elhanan]

OOooh! That is a scary thought. If Loghain had all 4 ranks of Coersion.... *shudders*

[Asepsis]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think Loghain's death was his way of paying Ferelden back for what he did. I'm all for forgiveness, but seriously, he killed hundreds/thousands (Not sure how many were at Ostagar) of good soldiers, and a bunch of Wardens and threw Ferelden into civil war.

He didn't kill anyone at Ostagar. He did not attempt to save them and we do not know whether he would have succeeded if he had. I doubt he could have saved the Wardens as, being the most dangerous to the darkspawn, the darkspawn likely went straight for them.

And Loghain was not the sole cause of the Civil War. The Bannorn, who are documented as fighting over ANYTHING, took advantage of the vacancy on the throne to have a 'We don't have to listen to Denerim' fit and ignored the Blight just as surely as Loghain did. A more skilled politician might have been able to calm them down but there's really no guarantee.

Not with his own hand obviously, but he left them to die, sorry I meant to re-word that so it wouldn't sound like he actually did it himself. Also, they imply heavily through out the game that Loghain's forces would have helped the King's first group win Ostagar.

Elhanan wrote...

OOooh! That is a scary thought. If Loghain had all 4 ranks of Coersion.... *shudders*

LOL! I wish, then he could have avoided this whole mess by just convincing Cailan not to let the Orlesians in.

Alistair stays friendly with you? I thought he stayed civil and was being nice mostly out of sarcasm.

EDIT: I realize none of my posts really responded to the question in the subject line, so to answer it:

No I didn't spare Loghain for that reason, I would only spare Loghain because I think he'd atone for the things he did and clear his image by killing the arch demon. For someone like Loghain I think that's the best way for him to go. He really is one of the best characters in Dragon Age. He's one of my top favorites, despite some of the things he did.

Modifié par Asepsis, 04 octobre 2010 - 06:52 .

[Sarah1281]

Not with his own hand obviously, but he left them to die, sorry I meant to re-word that so it wouldn't sound like he actually did it himself. Also, they imply heavily through out the game that Loghain's forces would have helped the King's first group win Ostagar.

Who implies it? Loghain and Cauthrien never do, there is no reason to trust anything Flemeth says ever, Alistair could no better tell what was happening than you could, and Wynne fled before Loghain retreated.

[Elhanan]

The Racked Noble, and the testimony given to him by his missing friend. And he does not imly it; states it clearly.

[Asepsis]

Elhanan wrote...

The Racked Noble, and the testimony given to him by his missing friend. And he does not imly it; states it clearly.

That, and Wynne did see what Loghain did, she went back to the circle and told them of how Loghain abandoned the king. At least that's what the mages at the circle tower told my character.

Modifié par Asepsis, 04 octobre 2010 - 06:57 .

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

The Racked Noble, and the testimony given to him by his missing friend. And he does not imly it; states it clearly.

 
Oswyn is already telling the story second-hand and this is all he says:

PC: Why was Arl Howe torturing you?
Oswyn: One soldier returning from Ostagar was my wet nurse's son. We have been friends since birth. He told me his unit was ordered to turn their backs on Cailan at Ostagar... <emp>before</emp> the darkspawn overwhelmed him. The next day, he disappeared. When I went to search for him... I accepted a drink from a stranger and ended up here.

The friend was just a random soldier. He couldn't possibly have been close enough to see whether Cailan had been overrun because he wouldn't have been ordered to leave unless he was one of the men stationed with Loghain and thus standing behind him. Loghain couldn't see Cailan from where he was standing. It is his opinion that Cailan was abandoned prematurely and, given the Civil War, a very dangerous thing to go around saying. That's why he disappeared and since Oswyn was the son of a strong Loghain supporter then if he told his father what his friend told him that might get Sighard to doubt what happened and that's a risk that they wanted to avoid.

It doesn't mean the friend's theory is what really happened.

[Sarah1281]

Asepsis wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

The Racked Noble, and the testimony given to him by his missing friend. And he does not imly it; states it clearly.

That, and Wynne did see what Loghain did, she went back to the circle and told them of how Loghain abandoned the king. At least that's what the mages at the circle tower told my character.

The mages (including Wynne) started to retreat before Loghain did. Wynne was leaving already when Loghain left and NOT carefully watching Cailan to see whether or not he could have been saved.

[Elhanan]

Still, Wynne does report Loghains 'traitorous actions at Ostagar' to Irving in order to stop Uldred from convincing the Circle to join Loghain. For whatever reason, and from whatever vantage point, Wynne is already assured of Loghain's treason before the Warden speaks to her again.

Modifié par Elhanan, 04 octobre 2010 - 07:18 .

[Obadiah]

Sarah1281 wrote...
...
The friend was just a random soldier. He couldn't possibly have been close enough to see whether Cailan had been overrun because he wouldn't have been ordered to leave unless he was one of the men stationed with Loghain and thus standing behind him....

There were soliders in the Ostagar fort shooting down into the horde attacking Cailin's men. The Warden and Alistair run right past them on the way to the tower of Ishal. That seems like a pretty good vantage point to see the fighting. Why couldn't those soldiers have escaped once they saw Loghain quit? His friend could have been one of those.

Modifié par Obadiah, 04 octobre 2010 - 11:34 .

[Sarah1281]

Obadiah wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
...
The friend was just a random soldier. He couldn't possibly have been close enough to see whether Cailan had been overrun because he wouldn't have been ordered to leave unless he was one of the men stationed with Loghain and thus standing behind him....

There were soliders in the Ostagar fort shooting down into the horde attacking Cailin's men. The Warden and Alistair run right past them on the way to the tower of Ishal. That seems like a pretty good vantage point to see the fighting. Why couldn't those soldiers have escaped once they saw Loghain quit? His friend could have been one of those.

Because he said that HIS UNIT was ORDERED to leave, not that they all retreated on their own like Wynne and the mages. The only people ordered to leave were the soldiers standing with Loghain.