295 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

Elhanan wrote...

Still, Wynne does report Loghains 'traitorous actions at Ostagar' to Irving in order to stop Uldred from convincing the Circle to join Loghain. For whatever reason, and from whatever vantage point, Wynne is already assured of Loghain's treason before the Warden speaks to her again.

This conversation is now saved so I don't have to go hunting for it the next time Wynne and her ridiculous argument come up:

Loghain: You can stop scowling at me, madam.

Wynne: Did I need your permission? I see.

Loghain: Fine. I confess: It was entirely my idea that Uldred consort with demons. I had a dastardly scheme in which the utter destruction of Ferelden's best weapon would benefit me, personally.

Loghain: Are you satisfied now?

Wynne: Do you think your deal with Uldred was where you earned my contempt? I was at Ostagar. I witnessed Cailan's murder.

Loghain: Such loyalty.

Wynne: What is that supposed to mean?

Loghain: Did you try to save him, then? My apologies.

Wynne: I was fortunate to escape with my life!

Loghain: So you didn't rush to your king's rescue? I see. Then both of us left the boy to die.

Wynne: I was no general at the head of an army! I could never have reached him!

Loghain: And I had no magic that could break those darkspawn ranks. But perhaps you think I ought to have tried, regardless. No doubt, the lives of meresoldiers are cheap in the eyes of the Circle.

Wynne: And what of all the soldiers who died with their king? Their lives were worth nothing to you.

Loghain: You think so, do you? I knew their names, mage, and where they came from. I knew their families.

Loghain: I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day.

Modifié par Monica21, 05 octobre 2010 - 01:39 .

[TJPags]

I hate to get back into this, but how does that conversation vindicate Loghain?

He had no mages?  Why didn't he keep some with his troops?

Mages ran?  As the lines of soldiers were being over-run, what were they supposed to do?

I see his point here, but I don't see how it vindicates his decision.

[tool_bot]

Monica21 wrote...
Loghain: You think so, do you? I knew their names, mage, and where they came from. I knew their families.

Loghain: I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day.

"I knew their names, mage."

Please. You knew the commanders and maybe a few of the .

God I hate it when officers pretend they're making any kind of sacrifice. You issue orders and the people under you pay the price. You get to go on living and enjoying your family. The rest of us do what we're told and hope your judgment is sound.

[mousestalker]

How do you see/hear these conversations with the toolset?

[Monica21]

TJPags wrote...

I hate to get back into this, but how does that conversation vindicate Loghain?

He had no mages?  Why didn't he keep some with his troops?

Mages ran?  As the lines of soldiers were being over-run, what were they supposed to do?

I see his point here, but I don't see how it vindicates his decision.

The point is that Wynne was retreating before Loghain, and yet accuses Loghain of leaving Cailan to die. And I got the impression that mages were fighting as a unit and not interspersed among the troops.

As for what they were supposed to do, uh, Storm of the Century? Even a few Blizzard spells, since there are no Blood Mages in the Tower.

[TJPags]

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

I hate to get back into this, but how does that conversation vindicate Loghain?

He had no mages?  Why didn't he keep some with his troops?

Mages ran?  As the lines of soldiers were being over-run, what were they supposed to do?

I see his point here, but I don't see how it vindicates his decision.

The point is that Wynne was retreating before Loghain, and yet accuses Loghain of leaving Cailan to die. And I got the impression that mages were fighting as a unit and not interspersed among the troops.

As for what they were supposed to do, uh, Storm of the Century? Even a few Blizzard spells, since there are no Blood Mages in the Tower.

I get that the mages were in a unit - seems like the Chantry made that decision.  But I don't see how Loghain can blame that on Wynne.

And what part of that indicates Wynne retreated before Loghain?  I don't see that in the conversation.

[Costin_Razvan]

Loghain: All your threads are belong to me!



That's all I am going to say. "Grabs popcorn."

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
I get that the mages were in a unit - seems like the Chantry made that decision.  But I don't see how Loghain can blame that on Wynne.

He isn't blaming her at all. He understands why she quit the field, because the battle was lost. And he did the same. 

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
I get that the mages were in a unit - seems like the Chantry made that decision.  But I don't see how Loghain can blame that on Wynne.

He isn't blaming her at all. He understands why she quit the field, because the battle was lost. And he did the same. 

Clearly, from her viewpoint, she only had to retreat because he failed to charge.

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Loghain: All your threads are belong to me!

That's all I am going to say. "Grabs popcorn."

At least this thread is supposed to be about him. He keeps trying to hijack the Howe thread.

[Monica21]

TJPags wrote...
I get that the mages were in a unit - seems like the Chantry made that decision.  But I don't see how Loghain can blame that on Wynne.

And what part of that indicates Wynne retreated before Loghain?  I don't see that in the conversation.

I don't think he's blaming the tactical decision on Wynne, he's just pointing out that she did exactly what he did. And mages are far more powerful than foot soldiers.

As for the retreat, I thought there was dialogue somewhere that indicated the mages left before Loghain, but I could be wrong.

[Asepsis]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Loghain: All your threads are belong to me!

That's all I am going to say. "Grabs popcorn."

At least this thread is supposed to be about him. He keeps trying to hijack the Howe thread.

LOL!

[TJPags]

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...
I get that the mages were in a unit - seems like the Chantry made that decision.  But I don't see how Loghain can blame that on Wynne.

And what part of that indicates Wynne retreated before Loghain?  I don't see that in the conversation.

I don't think he's blaming the tactical decision on Wynne, he's just pointing out that she did exactly what he did. And mages are far more powerful than foot soldiers.

As for the retreat, I thought there was dialogue somewhere that indicated the mages left before Loghain, but I could be wrong.

She did what he did, but as she pointed out, she didn't have an army - he was hardly a foot soldier, one man alone with his sword.

And there may be such a dialogue somewhere, I'm just not sure this one is it.

[tool_bot]

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...
I get that the mages were in a unit - seems like the Chantry made that decision.  But I don't see how Loghain can blame that on Wynne.

And what part of that indicates Wynne retreated before Loghain?  I don't see that in the conversation.

I don't think he's blaming the tactical decision on Wynne, he's just pointing out that she did exactly what he did. And mages are far more powerful than foot soldiers.

But much fewer in number and they weren't exactly allowed to go all out either. Judging from the interaction between the Revered Mother and Uldred they were on a tight leash.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
Clearly, from her viewpoint, she only had to retreat because he failed to charge.

Yes, her viewpoint, which she admits is wrong later.
I'd trust the general and not the mage who thinks she knows everything while in reality knows little.

[Asepsis]

tool_bot wrote...

But much fewer in number and they weren't exactly allowed to go all out either. Judging from the interaction between the Revered Mother and Uldred they were on a tight leash.

This is true.

Mages need soldiers/someone to protect them, this is demonstrated in the books and
the game. A mage is powerful, but unless they plan on using their magic
to protect themselves and not others, rather useless. The soldiers and
mages work together, they are a weapon of the army, not a replacement
for the army.

I just felt the least Loghain could have done would be to cover the soldiers
and the King in a retreat. Letting the darkspawn take Ostagar was a bad
idea, no matter what Loghain thought about the whole thing. I doubt letting the darkspawn set up shop on the surface in such large numbers was a good idea for King Cailan or Ferelden.

Modifié par Asepsis, 05 octobre 2010 - 02:48 .

[Sarah1281]

tool_bot wrote...



But much fewer in number and they weren't exactly allowed to go all out either. Judging from the interaction between the Revered Mother and Uldred they were on a tight leash.

They were on a tight leash, yes, but not during the battle. Seriously, unless you think they had templars standing guard on them during the battle to make sure they barely used any magic and were thus useless, there wasn't much the Revered Mother could do about them during the fight.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Clearly, from her viewpoint, she only had to retreat because he failed to charge.

Yes, her viewpoint, which she admits is wrong later.
I'd trust the general and not the mage who thinks she knows everything while in reality knows little.

See, that's the thing - I don't trust THIS general - i see too many bad decisions he makes, and just can't trust him.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
See, that's the thing - I don't trust THIS general - i see too many bad decisions he makes, and just can't trust him.

Then don't. No one is forcing you to.

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

tool_bot wrote...

But much fewer in number and they weren't exactly allowed to go all out either. Judging from the interaction between the Revered Mother and Uldred they were on a tight leash.

They were on a tight leash, yes, but not during the battle. Seriously, unless you think they had templars standing guard on them during the battle to make sure they barely used any magic and were thus useless, there wasn't much the Revered Mother could do about them during the fight.

Just what WERE they supposed to do, that was more than they did?

We can either assume they did nothing - which I grant, is a silly assumption - or assume they were doing all they could, yet it wasn't enough.  It's also not insane to think that they may have OVERdone it initially, in the assumption there would be a flanking attack in relief, as planned.

With the lines of soldiers being over run, despite what they were doing, should they have stood there and waited for relief that never came?

[Asepsis]

I personally think Loghain made very good decisions up until the point he let his hate for the Orlesians cloud his judgment, then it all went downhill from there.



No one can Loghain is completely evil, because he isn't, he just made some seriously messed up decisions.

[tool_bot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

tool_bot wrote...

But much fewer in number and they weren't exactly allowed to go all out either. Judging from the interaction between the Revered Mother and Uldred they were on a tight leash.

They were on a tight leash, yes, but not during the battle. Seriously, unless you think they had templars standing guard on them during the battle to make sure they barely used any magic and were thus useless, there wasn't much the Revered Mother could do about them during the fight.

But there was. Using creation magic to create choke points or safe zones on the battle field. Conjuring those Sylvans (a la what's her face from Awakening). Using primal magic to create horribly unstable ground and causing any known or suspected tunnels to collapse. Actually being around the wounded soldiers. 

Maybe it's to many DnD games and final fantasy talking right now.

[Sarah1281]

@TJPags: What I'm saying is that the mages were not under the Chantry's thumb DURING THE FIGHT as the templars were likely not just standing around staring at the mages and waiting for one of them to start attacking a non-darkspawn. That has nothing to do with whether they could have done anything else.



@tool_bot: Um...What does suggestions about what the mages could have done that they didn't (and who is to say that they knew the spells in question or were that creative/tactically inclined?) have to do with my claim that the Chantry could not actively control the mages during the battle?

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
See, that's the thing - I don't trust THIS general - i see too many bad decisions he makes, and just can't trust him.

Then don't. No one is forcing you to.

No, nobody is. 

Yet so many discussions about Loghain come down to exactly that - trust.

Trust his decision, his opinion, over that of Wynne.  Trust it over Alistair.  Trust it over your own eyes.  Trust it over the questions of the Banns, of Teagan, of Anora.  Trust it over the opinion of the tortured soldier.  Trust him over Flemeth.

To me, Loghain made a LOT of tactical mistakes.  The Tower of Ishal that he sealed wasn't sealed well enough.  His army's scouts couldn't detect the larger number of darkspawn and count them accurately.  Hell, he LOST an entire army of scouts (Fergus and the men from Highever).  Not to mention why he needed a beacon in the first place if he could see the battle well enough to know it was lost.

There are a lot of people who disagree with or question Loghain.  I'm not saying every one of them, or even any individual one, had a better vantage or more experience.  But when so many question him, and I see the errors he made, I find it very hard to trust.

And without that trust, and chance of seeing things his way kind of fails.

[Monica21]

TJPags wrote...
She did what he did, but as she pointed out, she didn't have an army - he was hardly a foot soldier, one man alone with his sword.

And there may be such a dialogue somewhere, I'm just not sure this one is it.

And that's where they disagree. She thinks he could have saved everyone, or at least Cailan, by sticking to the plan, and he thinks her magic, combined with the other mages should have been powerful enough to cut through the ranks of darkspawn and get to Cailan. They forever disagree over Ostagar and "what might have been" not unlike you and I. And yes, I just compared you to Wynne. :innocent: