295 réponses à ce sujet

[JayTheWolf]

 I never played a "good character" in this game. In Mass Effect, I had both distinctive Paragon and Renegade playthroughs. But in Dragon Age, I played as myself. As in, "How would I handle this matter?"
My thoughts: "Loghain, you've betrayed the throne, your comrades, and everything you stood for in the past. Your current realization of this does not undo the damage you have done. For that, you must die." 

Anyhow. That's how I felt on the matter. Loghain was on a power trip. Even before death, admitting to your faults does not balance out right and wrong. It just means you understand. 

[tool_bot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

@tool_bot: Um...What does suggestions about what the mages could have done that they didn't (and who is to say that they knew the spells in question or were that creative/tactically inclined?) have to do with my claim that the Chantry could not actively control the mages during the battle?

Sorry. What I meant to say is that all the things that would have really helped (especially considering they were defending a location) they likely were bared from doing due to Chantry and Templar oversight. I'm sure in the middle of the fight they could have done as they pleased but it'd be a different game then.

[TJPags]

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...
She did what he did, but as she pointed out, she didn't have an army - he was hardly a foot soldier, one man alone with his sword.

And there may be such a dialogue somewhere, I'm just not sure this one is it.

And that's where they disagree. She thinks he could have saved everyone, or at least Cailan, by sticking to the plan, and he thinks her magic, combined with the other mages should have been powerful enough to cut through the ranks of darkspawn and get to Cailan. They forever disagree over Ostagar and "what might have been" not unlike you and I. And yes, I just compared you to Wynne. :innocent:

Compared me to Wynne? 

Monica, you wound me.  Deeply. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

@TJPags

And we'll never agree on this.
I have absolutely no problem at all with what Loghain did at Ostagar and I can't be bothered to explain why for the millionth time, I think you and I had that discussion already.

You feel like there is not enough for you to trust him, so be it. I can't change that, nor have the interest to.

Now I am just going to retire, too many Loghain debates in just one month.

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Now I am just going to retire, too many Loghain debates in just one month.

And it's only the fourth...

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Now I am just going to retire, too many Loghain debates in just one month.

And it's only the fourth...

I counted September too. But yea, October started out really well.

[TJPags]

Hey, nobody forces you Loghain people to defend him in EVERY thread. 

Frankly, I enjoy the debates - but maybe I'm weird. 

[Monica21]

TJPags wrote...
Compared me to Wynne? 

Monica, you wound me.  Deeply. 

Aww... there, there. *pat pat* It'll be okay.

[Giggles_Manically]

TJPags wrote...

Hey, nobody forces you Loghain people to defend him in EVERY thread. 

Frankly, I enjoy the debates - but maybe I'm weird. 

By that thinking, no one forces people (you) to attack Loghain in EVERY thread.

[Monica21]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Hey, nobody forces you Loghain people to defend him in EVERY thread. 

Frankly, I enjoy the debates - but maybe I'm weird. 

By that thinking, no one forces people (you) to attack Loghain in EVERY thread.

If I may speak up for TJ, I think he's one of the few who actually makes logical arguments. He doesn't troll or spam. He wants an honest debate. At least that's how I see it.

[tool_bot]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Hey, nobody forces you Loghain people to defend him in EVERY thread. 

Frankly, I enjoy the debates - but maybe I'm weird. 

By that thinking, no one forces people (you) to attack Loghain in EVERY thread.

And by this thinking, we could all use a drink. I've got spiced rum. Didn't come with a name. Just says spiced rum, sailor's original. Anywho. Anyone up for a shot?

[tool_bot]

Monica21 wrote...

If I may speak up for TJ, I think he's one of the few who actually makes logical arguments. 

:(

trying to find one that says 'meh'...

[Giggles_Manically]

tool_bot wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Hey, nobody forces you Loghain people to defend him in EVERY thread. 

Frankly, I enjoy the debates - but maybe I'm weird. 

By that thinking, no one forces people (you) to attack Loghain in EVERY thread.

And by this thinking, we could all use a drink. I've got spiced rum. Didn't come with a name. Just says spiced rum, sailor's original. Anywho. Anyone up for a shot?

If I am going to start drinking its rum and pepsi for me.

[Obadiah]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
...
The friend was just a random soldier. He couldn't possibly have been close enough to see whether Cailan had been overrun because he wouldn't have been ordered to leave unless he was one of the men stationed with Loghain and thus standing behind him....

There were soliders in the Ostagar fort shooting down into the horde attacking Cailin's men. The Warden and Alistair run right past them on the way to the tower of Ishal. That seems like a pretty good vantage point to see the fighting. Why couldn't those soldiers have escaped once they saw Loghain quit? His friend could have been one of those.

Because he said that HIS UNIT was ORDERED to leave, not that they all retreated on their own like Wynne and the mages. The only people ordered to leave were the soldiers standing with Loghain.

A "unit" could be anything from division to squad. Unless that word has some special significance in Ferelden, that statement just means they were ordered by some commanding officer to leave. It doesn't have to be Loghain, just someone in authority.

[Sarah1281]

Obadiah wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
...
The friend was just a random soldier. He couldn't possibly have been close enough to see whether Cailan had been overrun because he wouldn't have been ordered to leave unless he was one of the men stationed with Loghain and thus standing behind him....

There were soliders in the Ostagar fort shooting down into the horde attacking Cailin's men. The Warden and Alistair run right past them on the way to the tower of Ishal. That seems like a pretty good vantage point to see the fighting. Why couldn't those soldiers have escaped once they saw Loghain quit? His friend could have been one of those.

Because he said that HIS UNIT was ORDERED to leave, not that they all retreated on their own like Wynne and the mages. The only people ordered to leave were the soldiers standing with Loghain.

A "unit" could be anything from division to squad. Unless that word has some special significance in Ferelden, that statement just means they were ordered by some commanding officer to leave. It doesn't have to be Loghain, just someone in authority.

But if his unit that had nothing to do with Loghain at all just decided to leave like Wynne and the mages or like that guy Cailan gave his key to then it wouldn't matter when they left because this wouldn't be Loghain's fault.

[Obadiah]

Sarah1281 wrote...
...
But if his unit that had nothing to do with Loghain at all just decided to leave like Wynne and the mages or like that guy Cailan gave his key to then it wouldn't matter when they left because this wouldn't be Loghain's fault.

Whether Loghain's retreat was a good idea or not, whether the friend was under Loghain's command or not (and it sounds like he was), my only point is that it is entirely plausible that the friend could have had a decent view of the battlefield and known when Calin was overrun. He just had a different opinion about it than Loghain.

Modifié par Obadiah, 05 octobre 2010 - 05:24 .

[Elhanan]

While some may not agree with the witensses against Loghain, there are a few. Some even survive to see him get justice at the Landsmeet.

[Persephone]

zapkeet wrote...

I hear so many opinions from people, but this is one i don't usually hear

my character was a good guy, adn I really liked alistair.  he was a good character, i personally didn't think he was too whiny, and thought he would make a decent king. 

I thought Loghain was a monster, plain and simple. I can see how he became one and how it "corrupted" him.  He wasn't evil necessarily, but he really did need to be stopped.

Here's the thing though..why i spared Loghain.  he specifically yielded to the warden.  Sure he only did it once he was defeated, but I think he finally realized that he lost, and that he was wrong.  otherwise he would have fought to the bitter end, but didn't.  Killing him just seems so cruel, was he cruel to others? of course, but really now, what the hell does killing him gain at that point?  letting alistair get his way in his tantrum in killing loghain seems to be the making of a tyrant in my opinion.  If loghain was still bitterly making threats, then yes, he was a danger, but he obviously had given up, it was over.  There was NO reason to kill him, particullarly when you could have used him as a potential ally, with him being willing

the fact that Alistair did not see this..it was childish and stupid.  you can't; say anything else about it.  people who are anti-loghain say "well orlais issues were all in the past!!!!"  well guess what?  Loghain's issues are NOW in the past.  Alistair is acting exactly like Loghain was

so really there are two choices:  choose the person who wishes to reedeem himself, choose the person who wishes to become what he hates.  as a good character, the choice was clear

This is, in fact, one of my MAIN reasons. For Alistair to begin his reign in blood, it would not only be unwise but also dangerous. Killing someone who honorably surrendered also doesn't strike me as a particularly "good" choice.

[Persephone]

tool_bot wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
Loghain: You think so, do you? I knew their names, mage, and where they came from. I knew their families.

Loghain: I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day.

"I knew their names, mage."

Please. You knew the commanders and maybe a few of the .

God I hate it when officers pretend they're making any kind of sacrifice. You issue orders and the people under you pay the price. You get to go on living and enjoying your family. The rest of us do what we're told and hope your judgment is sound.

Loghain's advice on leading troops: "You must be close enough to your men to know what you are risking and yet still think of them as tools that may need to be thrown away." (Loghain Mac Tir, Castle Redcliffe)

[Persephone]

TJPags wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
See, that's the thing - I don't trust THIS general - i see too many bad decisions he makes, and just can't trust him.

Then don't. No one is forcing you to.

No, nobody is. 

Yet so many discussions about Loghain come down to exactly that - trust.

Trust his decision, his opinion, over that of Wynne.  Trust it over Alistair.  Trust it over your own eyes.  Trust it over the questions of the Banns, of Teagan, of Anora.  Trust it over the opinion of the tortured soldier.  Trust him over Flemeth.

Wynne: The mages retreated before Loghain did. She knows nothing about warfare. So no, not a source I'd trust.

Alistair: Inexperienced man-child who is focused only on himself and his grief. Bound to be biased.

The Banns: Politicians eager for power.

Teagan: No reason mistrust him, except that his older brother is using Alistair in a coup...

Anora: A clever, manipulating politician.

Tortured soldier: Clearly out of his mind. Not a reliable witness.

Flemeth: SERIOUSLY?

I guess it comes down to your own observations in the end.

[FellowerOfOdin]

TJPags wrote...

I hate to get back into this, but how does that conversation vindicate Loghain?

He had no mages?  Why didn't he keep some with his troops?

Mages ran?  As the lines of soldiers were being over-run, what were they supposed to do?

I see his point here, but I don't see how it vindicates his decision.

Seeing that mages are ridiculously overpowered in Dragon Age, they could have easily killed the Darkspawn. I mean, they already had them in that narrow path, so why weren't the mages spamming Tempest, Inferno, etc. like there was no tomorrow? 

Huge plot hole is huge.

[Xilizhra]

You know, I don't think Alistair would have done much more than complain a little if Loghain had survived and was exiled to the Free Marches or something. The thing that really angered him wasn't Loghain living; it was Loghain becoming a Grey Warden, part of an organization that he hugely identified with, and had greatly conflated with Duncan. In a way, it's saying that Loghain is just as good as Duncan, which is why he freaks out. I support Loghain and see his attitude as a refusal to face reality, but it is a shame...

[Elhanan]

Persephone wrote...

Wynne: The mages retreated before Loghain did. She knows nothing about warfare. So no, not a source I'd trust.

Alistair: Inexperienced man-child who is focused only on himself and his grief. Bound to be biased.

The Banns: Politicians eager for power.

Teagan: No reason mistrust him, except that his older brother is using Alistair in a coup...

Anora: A clever, manipulating politician.

Tortured soldier: Clearly out of his mind. Not a reliable witness.

Flemeth: SERIOUSLY?

I guess it comes down to your own observations in the end.

Wynne - learned and respected Mage from the Circle who stayed behind to help the injured. Her testimony prevents Uldred from gaining Circle backing, and she helps apprentices and children survive demons and abomination when Templars run scared.

Alistair - son of Maric forced into a leadership role. Mentor is killed, guardian is poisoned, and by the same man. And yet, some are surprised that he raises his voice at the Landsmeet when the accused murderer may get asked to join the same club as his recent victims.

Teagan - brother of the Arl who was poisoned by Loghain via Jowan. If the Arl had remained healthy, the losses at Redcliff may not have occured.

Anora - a clever manipulative Queen; daughter of the accused.

Tortured noble - has the clarity of thought to order his release, then aplogize for his lack of courtesy.

Flemeth - more wise than many give her credit. Expert at manipulation, and realizes that Loghain's actions jepordize Ferelden and her plans, whatever they really are.....

I guess it does come down to obsevations, instead of blindly accepting the party platform.

[Obadiah]

Elhanan wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Wynne: The mages retreated before Loghain did. She knows nothing about warfare. So no, not a source I'd trust.

Alistair: Inexperienced man-child who is focused only on himself and his grief. Bound to be biased.

The Banns: Politicians eager for power.

Teagan: No reason mistrust him, except that his older brother is using Alistair in a coup...

Anora: A clever, manipulating politician.

Tortured soldier: Clearly out of his mind. Not a reliable witness.

Flemeth: SERIOUSLY?

I guess it comes down to your own observations in the end.

Wynne - learned and respected Mage from the Circle who stayed behind to help the injured. Her testimony prevents Uldred from gaining Circle backing, and she helps apprentices and children survive demons and abomination when Templars run scared.

Alistair - son of Maric forced into a leadership role. Mentor is killed, guardian is poisoned, and by the same man. And yet, some are surprised that he raises his voice at the Landsmeet when the accused murderer may get asked to join the same club as his recent victims.

Teagan - brother of the Arl who was poisoned by Loghain via Jowan. If the Arl had remained healthy, the losses at Redcliff may not have occured.

Anora - a clever manipulative Queen; daughter of the accused.

Tortured noble - has the clarity of thought to order his release, then aplogize for his lack of courtesy.

Flemeth - more wise than many give her credit. Expert at manipulation, and realizes that Loghain's actions jepordize Ferelden and her plans, whatever they really are.....

I guess it does come down to obsevations, instead of blindly accepting the party platform.

See, I think much of the argument to support Loghain falls apart when it includes proving all the other characters wrong or incompetent.

Modifié par Obadiah, 05 octobre 2010 - 01:52 .

[Sarah1281]

Wynne - learned and respected Mage from the Circle who stayed behind to help the injured. Her testimony prevents Uldred from gaining Circle backing, and she helps apprentices and children survive demons and abomination when Templars run scared.



Alistair - son of Maric forced into a leadership role. Mentor is killed, guardian is poisoned, and by the same man. And yet, some are surprised that he raises his voice at the Landsmeet when the accused murderer may get asked to join the same club as his recent victims.



Teagan - brother of the Arl who was poisoned by Loghain via Jowan. If the Arl had remained healthy, the losses at Redcliff may not have occured.



Anora - a clever manipulative Queen; daughter of the accused.



Tortured noble - has the clarity of thought to order his release, then aplogize for his lack of courtesy.



Flemeth - more wise than many give her credit. Expert at manipulation, and realizes that Loghain's actions jepordize Ferelden and her plans, whatever they really are.....

See, I think much of the argument to support Loghain falls apart when it includes proving all the other characters wrong or incompetent.

But that's not what it's about. It's about these people having no idea what happened at Ostagar. Wynne was there and she did come back to heal people but guess what? She still left before Loghain did. Her accusation of Loghain being a traitor (which she doesn't even get to testify about as she wasn't at the meeting Irving called where Uldred went crazy) delayed the vote but the meeting seemed to be more about asking Uldred to refute Wynne's charges than automatically accepting her word over his. Uldred just cracked in the middle of it. Her actions at the Tower during the blood mage takeover in no way mean she has any idea what happened with Loghain.



Yes, Alistair's lineage is very impressive. Yes, he cared for Duncan and the other Wardens very deeply. This serves to make him extremely biased and still does not mean he had a decent view of the battle or idea what went on. He was with you the whole time and it's not like, cutscene aside, you saw what happened.



Teagan wasn't at Ostagar. Neither were the surviving Bannorn or Anora. The tortured noble was operating on second-hand information that is itself suspect because the only way the soldier could have been ordered to retreat and have the timing of this potentially damn Loghain in any way (thus prompting his disappearance) would have been if he were stationed with Loghain and if he's standing behind Loghain and Loghain can't see Cailan then he can't possibly know either. He's just guessing. Guessing from a random soldier is not damning evidence.



No one is accusing Flemeth of being stupid. You've conceded that she's manipulative. She says that Loghain quit the field and she also mutters something about the 'darkness in men's hearts.' Why does the fact that she realizes that the Blight is not in her best interest mean that she's suddenly going to be completely honest about everything else? Confront her about Morrigan's body-snatching accusations and she blatantly refuses to tell you anything and tells you that the truth is too valuable to be given lightly.



None of these people are really any sort of credibly witness about what happened at Ostagar. It doesn't make them incompetent, it just makes them uncredible. They can be amazingly selfless, poitically skilled, good at fighting, whatever and that does not mean that they have an informed and unbiased view of events.