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All human council, huh?


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#26
hamtyl07

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jbblue05 wrote...

hamtyl07 wrote...

not sure if this was said but if you listen to the citadel news reports or certain dialog from aliens around you find out that the council is human led if you kill off the orginal council


It says that the Alliacne believes dissidents from former council races are possibly behind the atracks on human colonies in the Terminus systems

Then their are reports that the Council wants STG to look into the missing colonies but STG only answers to the Council.  But if their is no salarian councilor why would the STG worrk with an all-human council?

Their is a report that the Asari ceded their share of Council fleet requirements to the turians.  If its all-human and the turians and asari are not on the Council why do they have "Council fleet requirements"

The Alliance leads the new council because they have the largest fleet to protect the Citadel.  What happens wheen the other Council races rebuild?   How come the Alliance has the largest fleet, the Arcturus fleet was protecting Alliance space, that means the Alliance is spreading out their naval power.  Why can't the Turians, Salarians, and Asari spread out their naval power when they have a larger Navy then the Alliance

As someone said earlier it must be bugged.  Bioware should just get rid of the all-human council until after the events of ME3.  Still an all-human Council after the defeat of the Reapers still sounds absurd


so... then what did i miss then is it truly all human or just human led are aliens still part of the council

#27
Randy1012

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InvaderErl wrote...

Agreed, unfortunately my biggest gripe with this series is that HUMANS ARE UBER AWESOME!!!111!!!!! just because.

When you look at the ME timeline the whole thing makes NO sense in relation to humanity's place in the galaxy. 

Agreed. This is my biggest gripe with the ME lore, by far. It's completely unbelievable that humanity has so thoroughly entrenched itself in galactic society and built itself up into a galactic superpower a mere thirty years after encountering the turians. I remember a scene in Revelation where the human ambassador outright refuses to kowtow to Council demands because humanity has already spread itself out so much and become so vital to the Citadel that the Council can't just bully them around--and Revelation took place in 2165, just eight years after the First Contact War!

I'm sorry, but it's not just improbable, but it's impossible. We humans are a clever and an ambitious species, but we're not that great. If BioWare had just bumped up the timeline, say, fifty years, with ME1 set in 2233 but keeping the First Contact War in 2157, it would have made humanity's position in the galaxy much easier to believe.

#28
jbblue05

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hamtyl07 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

hamtyl07 wrote...

not sure if this was said but if you listen to the citadel news reports or certain dialog from aliens around you find out that the council is human led if you kill off the orginal council


It says that the Alliacne believes dissidents from former council races are possibly behind the atracks on human colonies in the Terminus systems

Then their are reports that the Council wants STG to look into the missing colonies but STG only answers to the Council.  But if their is no salarian councilor why would the STG worrk with an all-human council?

Their is a report that the Asari ceded their share of Council fleet requirements to the turians.  If its all-human and the turians and asari are not on the Council why do they have "Council fleet requirements"

The Alliance leads the new council because they have the largest fleet to protect the Citadel.  What happens wheen the other Council races rebuild?   How come the Alliance has the largest fleet, the Arcturus fleet was protecting Alliance space, that means the Alliance is spreading out their naval power.  Why can't the Turians, Salarians, and Asari spread out their naval power when they have a larger Navy then the Alliance

As someone said earlier it must be bugged.  Bioware should just get rid of the all-human council until after the events of ME3.  Still an all-human Council after the defeat of the Reapers still sounds absurd


so... then what did i miss then is it truly all human or just human led are aliens still part of the council


If you let the council die ME2 never introduces you to the Council and its pretty inconsistent if the Council is multi-racial or all-human.
If you don't import then its an all-human council in ME2
So I'm guessing its an ME1 import bug.
.

#29
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SverhMashina wrote...

i just recently finished ME1 as a renegade character and picked Udina who gave a whole speech about humans being the only voice in the council. I thought, "F*CK YA!!!  human domination of teh galaxy ftw!". **** hits the fan in ME2 and when i go to the citadel to see what's up what do i find? ALIENS IN THE COUNCIL!! :alien::alien::alien:

anyone else as annoyed by this as i am?:pinched:


nope Posted Image

#30
Bad King

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jbblue05 wrote...

hamtyl07 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

hamtyl07 wrote...

not sure if this was said but if you listen to the citadel news reports or certain dialog from aliens around you find out that the council is human led if you kill off the orginal council


It says that the Alliacne believes dissidents from former council races are possibly behind the atracks on human colonies in the Terminus systems

Then their are reports that the Council wants STG to look into the missing colonies but STG only answers to the Council.  But if their is no salarian councilor why would the STG worrk with an all-human council?

Their is a report that the Asari ceded their share of Council fleet requirements to the turians.  If its all-human and the turians and asari are not on the Council why do they have "Council fleet requirements"

The Alliance leads the new council because they have the largest fleet to protect the Citadel.  What happens wheen the other Council races rebuild?   How come the Alliance has the largest fleet, the Arcturus fleet was protecting Alliance space, that means the Alliance is spreading out their naval power.  Why can't the Turians, Salarians, and Asari spread out their naval power when they have a larger Navy then the Alliance

As someone said earlier it must be bugged.  Bioware should just get rid of the all-human council until after the events of ME3.  Still an all-human Council after the defeat of the Reapers still sounds absurd


so... then what did i miss then is it truly all human or just human led are aliens still part of the council


If you let the council die ME2 never introduces you to the Council and its pretty inconsistent if the Council is multi-racial or all-human.
If you don't import then its an all-human council in ME2
So I'm guessing its an ME1 import bug.
.


If you don't import then it's a human-led alien council with Ambassador Udina representing humanity, not an all-human council.

#31
Sesshomaru47

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Even if you use their game. The one of an empty soulless word with nothing in it, you can still chose between Udina and Anderson.

#32
Dean_the_Young

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jbblue05 wrote...
Then their are reports that the Council wants STG to look into the missing colonies but STG only answers to the Council.  But if their is no salarian councilor why would the STG worrk with an all-human council?

Why do the Volus, the Elcor, the Hanar, and the Humans work with the Council in ME1?

Their is a report that the Asari ceded their share of Council fleet requirements to the turians.  If its all-human and the turians and asari are not on the Council why do they have "Council fleet requirements"

For the same reason there is 'Council law' the affects species not part of the Council. You don't have to be part of the Council to be affected by it: what the all-human council does was policy of thousands of years under the old Council

The Alliance leads the new council because they have the largest fleet to protect the Citadel.  What happens wheen the other Council races rebuild?   How come the Alliance has the largest fleet, the Arcturus fleet was protecting Alliance space, that means the Alliance is spreading out their naval power.  Why can't the Turians, Salarians, and Asari spread out their naval power when they have a larger Navy then the Alliance

By the time the other races rebuild, if they can/choose to rebuild (the Asari simply don't, for example), the Human Council has already established itself, and a system in place is far harder to remove than one not in place. And by then, Humanity can also arm up as well.

When the Council is shakey in human hands, humanity has the necessary ships to make it established. Afterwards, it matters a bit less as long as they hold enough to hold the Citadel.

#33
jbblue05

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Bad King wrote...


.


If you don't import then it's a human-led alien council with Ambassador Udina representing humanity, not an all-human council.




The last time I played a new game with no import I could've sworn it said all-human then again that was 8 months ago.
but you're right I started a new game with no import and its human-led.

I still wonder what's with the inconsistencies of a ME1 import on whether the council is human-led or all-human.
Whenever I import a ME1 save it always says human-led but I still get the report of "former Council Races might be behind attacks on human colonies in the Terminus systems

Modifié par jbblue05, 02 octobre 2010 - 10:04 .


#34
Spectre_907

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I only know from a news report after Freedom's Progress and Horizon that the salarians, turians, and asari are former council races if you import a Shepard who sacrificed the council and was mostly renegade.

If you were renegade and let the council die, the new council is all-human. Anyone know if you get that news report if you were paragon and let the council die or play the default story?

Modifié par Spectre_907, 02 octobre 2010 - 10:15 .


#35
jbblue05

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why do the Volus, the Elcor, the Hanar, and the Humans work with the Council in ME1?

STG makes up a large number of the Salarian military. they answer to the Council and their has always been a salarian councilor.  If their is no salarian representation on the Council why work for an all-human council.
In ME1 the Volus, Elcor, and Hanar didn't have spectres or performed special tasks for the Council that we know of.. Humans were lucky to get a spectre and It is never told if the Council uses N7 marines.


For the same reason there is 'Council law' the affects species not part of the Council. You don't have to be part of the Council to be affected by it: what the all-human council does was policy of thousands of years under the old Council

In ME1 non-council races didn't protect Citadel it was only composed of the Council Races.  Which means only the Council races protect the Citadel if the Asari and Turians are not part of the Council why do they have fleet requirements to protect the Citadel. 


By the time the other races rebuild, if they can/choose to rebuild (the Asari simply don't, for example), the Human Council has already established itself, and a system in place is far harder to remove than one not in place. And by then, Humanity can also arm up as well.

When the Council is shakey in human hands, humanity has the necessary ships to make it established. Afterwards, it matters a bit less as long as they hold enough to hold the Citadel.


The turian heiarchy are building dreadnoughts as fast as the Alliance and they have a much larger Navy then the Alliance and the Turians are building warships at an alarming rate..  In ME2 the salarian, asari, and turians still have way more dreadnought then the Alliance.
Its never said if the Asari stopped rebuilding it just says they are not going to provide a fleet to protect the Citadel.

An all-human COuncil is not a traditional council and is risky since the turians,asari, and salarians are the only "true" Council races. that've been around for a 1,000+ years  They could easily outnumber the Alliance's  citadel fleet many times  over. And the Alliance is in no position to fight a war with the 3 major species over the Citadel.

Modifié par jbblue05, 02 octobre 2010 - 10:42 .


#36
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jbblue05 wrote...

STG makes up a large number of the Salarian military. they answer to the Council and their has always been a salarian councilor.  If their is no salarian representation on the Council why work for an all-human council.
In ME1 the Volus, Elcor, and Hanar didn't have spectres or performed special tasks for the Council that we know of.. Humans were lucky to get a spectre and It is never told if the Council uses N7 marines.


The salarians are still associate members of the Citadel and the Council did not order them to do anything, it merely made a request. It is apparent that even though they are no longer on the Council the "former" Council races are still expected to participate in its defense. What is likely is that the human Council forces them to cooperate in return for access to the Citadel.

I wonder what the STG's response was.

#37
jbblue05

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Spectre_907 wrote...

I only know from a news report after Freedom's Progress and Horizon that the salarians, turians, and asari are former council races if you import a Shepard who sacrificed the council and was mostly renegade.

If you were renegade and let the council die, the new council is all-human. Anyone know if you get that news report if you were paragon and let the council die or play the default story?


Judging by the Gibbed Save Editor their is no paragon let council die or renegade let council die it just says
let council die or saved the Council

I was a renegade and let the council die and when I imported it the ME2 prologue says a human-led council but I get the reports of "former council races"
it could be a bug

#38
jbblue05

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Shandepared wrote...

The salarians are still associate members of the Citadel and the Council did not order them to do anything, it merely made a request. It is apparent that even though they are no longer on the Council the "former" Council races are still expected to participate in its defense. What is likely is that the human Council forces them to cooperate in return for access to the Citadel.

I wonder what the STG's response was.



I wonder too since and all-human council is not traditional.  The STG played a pivotal role in the Salarians getting their seat on the Council.

#39
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jbblue05 wrote...

I wonder too since and all-human council is not traditional.  The STG played a pivotal role in the Salarians getting their seat on the Council.


Salarians are opportunists and prior to the shake up humanity seemed to be steadily developing an alliance with them.

Of the former Council races I presume they are least hostile, though still hostile. The news report of salarian scientists on Ilos demonstrates this.

That said, if humanity proves to be more useful as an ally than as an enemy they'll probably turn on the asari and turians.

#40
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Shandepared wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

I wonder too since and all-human council is not traditional.  The STG played a pivotal role in the Salarians getting their seat on the Council.


Salarians are opportunists and prior to the shake up humanity seemed to be steadily developing an alliance with them.

Of the former Council races I presume they are least hostile, though still hostile. The news report of salarian scientists on Ilos demonstrates this.

That said, if humanity proves to be more useful as an ally than as an enemy they'll probably turn on the asari and turians.


But the Asari and Turians have economies that easily dwarf the Alliance and superior naval power.that could easily overwhelm the Alliance

I think the Salarians would rather have a traditional council with a human chairman then answer to an all-human council
because having a seat on the Council is more important

#41
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jbblue05 wrote...

But the Asari and Turians have economies that easily dwarf the Alliance and superior naval power.that could easily overwhelm the Alliance


The first part of that statement may be true, but not the second part. Following the Battle of the Citadel it was stated that the Citadel was dependent upon the Systems Alliance to fight off the geth. The losses suffered by the (former) Council races must have been much larger than we saw. Perhaps most of their dreadnoughts remained intact but it was most of their other ships that were lost. In addition to that humanity probably stationed a fleet right in orbit around the Citadel, allowing them to restrict access to it if they want. Once the human Council was established humanity's economy would grow because they'd have a favorable position on the Citadel and as we know the Citadel is the heart of the galaxy.

In any case, if the former Council races are so strong then why do they allow humanity to sit at the top? I don't think they'd tolerate that. If they fought together the old Council species probably could topple humanity, but only at great cost. Nobody in their right mind is going to rush into a war like that, especially when they have to be the aggressor. Remember that humanity never attacked the Council races, on the contrary it came to their defense and picked up the slack after they were beaten by the geth. Afterwards humanity made a new Council but chose not to invite them... A dick move, but with the old Council dead and humanity largely responsible for protecting the Citadel they can argue that it was their perogative.

Since then there has been a lot of posturing (the turians announcing plans to beef up their military and the salarians camping on Ilos, among other things) but nobody has attacked anyone else. I suspect they never will. What is more likely is a cold war between humanity and the old Council races.

The longer humanity sits on the throne the more they can consolidate their power and the more powerful they are the more easily they can buy support from other races.

#42
jbblue05

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Shandepared wrote...



The first part of that statement may be true, but not the second part. Following the Battle of the Citadel it was stated that the Citadel was dependent upon the Systems Alliance to fight off the geth. The losses suffered by the (former) Council races must have been much larger than we saw. Perhaps most of their dreadnoughts remained intact but it was most of their other ships that were lost. In addition to that humanity probably stationed a fleet right in orbit around the Citadel, allowing them to restrict access to it if they want. Once the human Council was established humanity's economy would grow because they'd have a favorable position on the Citadel and as we know the Citadel is the heart of the galaxy.

The Asari, turian, and salarian have been building their naval power for 1,000+ years.  Just like the Alliance, turian, salarian, and asari have to patrol their own space. The Council races have more dreadnoughts then the Alliance it won't take them long to build support ships.  The Alliance has 8 dreadnoughts, Turian- 38 Asari-20 Salarian-16.  The Council races have a much larger economy then the Alliance most businesses on the Citadel are owned by the Council races.  The Council races could easily levy sanctions against the Alliance. The only advantage the Alliance has is a larger presence on the Citadel

In any case, if the former Council races are so strong then why do they allow humanity to sit at the top? I don't think they'd tolerate that. If they fought together the old Council species probably could topple humanity, but only at great cost. Nobody in their right mind is going to rush into a war like that, especially when they have to be the aggressor. Remember that humanity never attacked the Council races, on the contrary it came to their defense and picked up the slack after they were beaten by the geth. Afterwards humanity made a new Council but chose not to invite them... A dick move, but with the old Council dead and humanity largely responsible for protecting the Citadel they can argue that it was their perogative

The Council races could easily overwhelm the Alliance they could even promise Batarians human colonies if they join the war. Their doesn't have to be any bloodshed if the Council races show up with 10-15 dreadnoughts the Alliance would easily back off  With all the chaos that has happen with the death of the Council it would make a lot more sense to re-establish the council with a human chairman because an all-human one would be a dictatorship  that would poorly represent the Citadel races.
The Alliance has more to fear from the Council races

Since then there has been a lot of posturing (the turians announcing plans to beef up their military and the salarians camping on Ilos, among other things) but nobody has attacked anyone else. I suspect they never will. What is more likely is a cold war between humanity and the old Council races.

The longer humanity sits on the throne the more they can consolidate their power and the more powerful they are the more easily they can buy support from other races.

The turians beefing up their military and the Asari siding with them means they have to be plotting against the Alliance.
Its been two years the Council races are still rebuilding it isn't enough time to openly campaign against the Alliance.
The other races will never let the Alliance completely take over after being around for 28 years when the COuncil races been around for more then a millenia.

The Alliance won't be able to buy support from other races when the other races have larger military and economy,
If anyone has to gain favor its the Alliance.

An all-human council won't last long unless they find a weapon that can put fear in the other races.

Modifié par jbblue05, 03 octobre 2010 - 01:36 .


#43
Schneidend

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Barquiel wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

Agreed, unfortunately my biggest gripe with this series is that HUMANS ARE UBER AWESOME!!!111!!!!! just because.

When you look at the ME timeline the whole thing makes NO sense in relation to humanity's place in the galaxy. 


http://tvtropes.org/...umansAreSpecial

But you're right, of course...it's one of my biggest complaints about the ME lore, too.


I really don't see the discrepancy. Humans are contributing a great deal to the technological innovation of the galactic market, and Alliance forces protect a great deal of Council-controlled space. They're being recognized for their achievements the same way the turians were and have been.

Modifié par Schneidend, 03 octobre 2010 - 02:27 .


#44
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fongiel24 wrote...

I've never understood the point of having an all-human council. That would be kind of like having the United States somehow taking over all five UN permanent Security Council member seats. Each seat in the Council is supposed to represent one race. If humanity takes all the seats, what does each seat represent then?


Each one represents a different chewing tobacco company.

#45
SverhMashina

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i wouldn't say it's so outlandish that humans become a galactic super power in only 30 years. i remember reading a codex entry that talks about how other species view the system's alliance as a sleeping giant (in military terms). in my game i hear news reports about humans having a majority share in citadel space defence, so i guess that's due to the "all-human" council?

#46
jbblue05

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SverhMashina wrote...

i wouldn't say it's so outlandish that humans become a galactic super power in only 30 years. i remember reading a codex entry that talks about how other species view the system's alliance as a sleeping giant (in military terms). in my game i hear news reports about humans having a majority share in citadel space defence, so i guess that's due to the "all-human" council?


Its due to the citdeal fleets being destroyed by Sovereign.and the Geth
Their seems to be no difference in the human-led council or all human council.  ME2 doesn't clarify the difference betweeen them,  It seems if you let the coucnil die no matter if your a paragon or renegade you get the same dialogue and news reports.

I think the Alliance is considered a sleeping giant because they haven't reached their military potential, Now that the Alliance is a council race . or leads the new council they are able to have a much larger military presence 

#47
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jbblue05 wrote...
The Alliance won't be able to buy support from other races when the other races have larger military and economy,
If anyone has to gain favor its the Alliance.

An all-human council won't last long unless they find a weapon that can put fear in the other races.

To bind themselves politicaly and economicaly to just one race like humanity would be to limit their own power and influence. If however race X keeps good relations to many different strong races than just one they have a better position to bargain. Therefore it is in the interest of all races that no one has all power, wich is why a multi racial council has worked for as long as it have. To think that race X can rule race Y better than race Y can is just hubris.

A all human council sounds more like some individual human leaders on a power trip to strenghten their weak self esteem rather than a long time plan to become a reliable and trusted member of the galactic community.

Yeah perhaps the Collector Base have plans for a Death Star or then again it might not. In any case a galactic civil war don't raise your chances to win against the reapers. But perhaps fantasising about being the ruler of the galaxy makes you feel more cool and badass.

#48
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Might I remind you that every-time "that" website is linked to a koala bear falls into a wood-chipper or something equally horrible. And that concept doesn't even apply here.

That said an all-human council is a worse option than creating a new council due to all of the diplomatic problems involved. Consider that by ME2 it seems the all-human council has very little real power over the other races.

#49
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jbblue05 wrote...

The Asari, turian, and salarian have been building their naval power for 1,000+ years.  Just like the Alliance, turian, salarian, and asari have to patrol their own space. The Council races have more dreadnoughts then the Alliance it won't take them long to build support ships.  The Alliance has 8 dreadnoughts, Turian- 38 Asari-20 Salarian-16.  The Council races have a much larger economy then the Alliance most businesses on the Citadel are owned by the Council races.  The Council races could easily levy sanctions against the Alliance. The only advantage the Alliance has is a larger presence on the Citadel.


The Council could levy sanctions against the Alliance but it won't because the humans own it. In regards to fleet numbers, humanity is about on par with the salarians. We have those eight dreadnoughts, plus several under construction, plus several fighter carriers which are not limited by the treaty, with more under construction, naturally. Humanity also has their stealth frigates which completely change the nature of warfare. If anyone attacked humanity the Systems Alliance could counter-attack deep in the aggressors territory without fear of retaliation. The mere threat of that alone should be enough to make any potential enemies think twice.

This is all just within the two-years since Mass Effect. In another two years the Alliance will be even stronger. The Alliance economy is already competitive even if it is not the largest and it has much room to grow. The Citadel itself is, as I said, an asset. It is a fortress and humanity having control of it greatly enhances their leverage. The former Council races can not kick humanity off without fighting a major war and none of them wants that becaus if they win it will be destructive. The Citadel is owned by whomever runs it and if this scenario humanity, and thus the Systems Alliance, are its owners.

jbblue05 wrote...

The Council races could easily overwhelm the Alliance they could even promise Batarians human colonies if they join the war.


Then why haven't they? I think you overestimate the former Council race's willingness to go to war. Keep in mind these people have not fought a real war in over a thousand years. They don't have much of a warrior culture anymore except for the turians and the turians cannot defeat humanity alone, at least not efficiently (if at all). The fact that the Systems Alliance is able to attack batarian worlds freely without retaliation should tell you just how insignificant they are. At most they are a nuisance, but they lost their teeth with the fall of Torfan. The reason they resorted to piracy was because they were weak and now that they're even weaker all they have to rely on are small groups of terrorists.

Once again, no what charges would the former Council races attack humanity? Humanity has not attacked them, humanity is not oppressing them. Humanity came to their aid at the Battle of the Citadel and when the Citadel Fleets were decimated by the geth humanity assumed responsibility for their duties. Humanity can rightly claim that they had no choice but to take power in the immediate wake of the geth attack and that now the hostility of the former Council races has deterred humanity from inviting them back in. If they play their cards right the Systems Alliance/Human Council can pit the former Council races against one another. The asari have already withdrawn leaving only the turians and salarians.


jbblue05 wrote...

The turians beefing up their military and the Asari siding with them means they have to be plotting against the Alliance.


The asari have withdrawn, lending only political support to the turians. Is this hostile? Yes, but it's not an act of war. The turians are trying to intimidate the Systems Alliance but they're still at a disadvantage. The sleeping giant has awoken and the old guard are desperately trying to convince it not to rise. Humanity suffered fewer losses them, which put them ahead, and humanity can keep expanding. The turians are at this point playing catch-up.

Another thing to keep in mind is Alliance military doctrine. Our fleet is far more flexible than the turians' fleet. The turians have such a large military because theirs is designed to be mostly immoble. It hunkers down on every colony and acts as a tough garrison. If the asari have seceded their defense responsibilities to the turians then it is quite possible that the turians now need to defend asari space as well as their own. The turian fleet will need to be truly massive to defend their own colonies and asari colonies at the same time and have any serious capability to threaten the Alliance. That's something people forget: the turian military needs to be twice again as big as humanity's in order to attack it. Our military is mobile and fluid... it can defend and attack all at once.
Its been two years the Council races are still rebuilding it isn't enough time to openly campaign against the Alliance.

Yet another advantage for the Alliance is Cerberus, naturally. Through Shepard and his contacts they've gained access to state of the art turian weaponry and asari armoring for their ships. If Cerberus passes this along to humanity our fleet will be even stronger. That's not even getting into what advantages the Collector base can offer, or Cerberus' other projects like Overlord or Trapdoor.

Finally, when the Alliance 5th fleet passed by Patavig, a volus colony (and thus part of the turian hierarchy) volus separatists began protesting. It would seem that the volus are starting to think that they'd be better off parting ways with the turians and instead going out on their own, most definitely with the intention of forming a close union with the Systems Alliance. If this happens the turian economy will go to ****.

Once the Alliance has won over one ally they will have an easier time winning over others like the elcor or hanar.  As the balance tips the salarians will be more tempted to take humanity's side. The codex states the salarians are our natural allies in comparison to the conservative asari. It is hinted in ME1 that the salarians were the ones largely pushing for a human seat on the Council. They're ready to ditch their own partners in favor of a superior alliance.

#50
jojon2se

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Nightwriter wrote...

fongiel24 wrote...
...If humanity takes all the seats, what does each seat represent then?

Each one represents a different chewing tobacco company.


Now, don't bring real world politics into this.