92 réponses à ce sujet

[Wolverfrog]

In all honesty any option which doesn't involve saving the old Council is rather rubbish.

[Count Viceroy]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I think I'm lost now...

So
how did Sovereign and the Geth manage to bypass all those patrols and
reach the Citadel? They didn't come from the Conduit with Saren, did
they?

The geth and sovreign probably just smashed through one of the blockades. Citadel fleet would have been spread out to cover as many relays as possible and while they might have been able to stop the geth attacks they were expecting, or at the very least least hold their own for a while until reinforcements could help out sovreigns presence probably made short work of them.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 04 octobre 2010 - 08:40 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I think I'm lost now...

So
how did Sovereign and the Geth manage to bypass all those patrols and
reach the Citadel? They didn't come from the Conduit with Saren, did
they?

The geth and sovreign probably just smashed through one of the blockades. Citadel fleet would have been spread out to cover as many relays as possible and while they might have been able to stop the geth attacks they were expecting, or at the very least least hold their own for a while until reinforcements could help out sovreigns presence probably made short work of them.

Or patrols were tasked with what the patrols are taske usually with when a massive attack is expected: give main force a warning. The main force that was at the Citadel. But for all we know about the Mass relay network and the Reapers, Sovereign could have managed to work its way to avoid the patrols at all.

@ Barquel. If we think about the same dev comment (which I don't think either of us can fish out now), I'm sure it was about the situation in the aftermath of the Battle. After the Geth and Council fleets annihilated each other, the Human fleet remained the largest (at least in the "Hold back" scenario). Not overwhelming, but allowing for the Human-led Council to be devised.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 04 octobre 2010 - 08:59 .

[Barquiel]

Chris L'Etoile wrote something on Mass Effect Wiki (some people were confused about TIM's comment in Ascension...Alliance=single strongest navy). But I can't find it...

Modifié par Barquiel, 04 octobre 2010 - 09:19 .

[GodWood]

Wolverfrog wrote...
In all honesty any option which doesn't involve saving the old Council is rather rubbish.

Why?

[Count Viceroy]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Or patrols were tasked with what the patrols are taske usually with when a massive attack is expected: give main force a warning. The main force that was at the Citadel. But for all we know about the Mass relay network and the Reapers, Sovereign could have managed to work its way to avoid the patrols at all.

.

The council mentions that most of the fleet is being deployed to the mass relays, not just simple patrols. One might argue it's a tactical error to only leave your reserve at the citadel itself but they probably never expected the enemy to reach that far. This is the goverment who has been complacent for the last 1000 years after all.

This is the only way they can account for the apparant massive losses the council fleet suffers that allows humanity to step in, it had to happen offscreen.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 04 octobre 2010 - 09:41 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

The citadel fleet was everywhere, but not where it should have been (=defending the citadel)

"Patrols are stationed at every mass relay linking citadel space to the terminus systems!"

...and a dev confirmed that the fifth fleet was the largest concentration of military force near the Citadel.

Without knowing about the Conduit, keeping the Citadel fleet at the Citadel would be useless.

The relays are the only realistic avenues of approach. Without reason to be at Citadel, ships at the Citadel are just a stragic reserve, they aren't actually defending it from attack by blocking the approaches.

I think I'm lost now...

So how did Sovereign and the Geth manage to bypass all those patrols and reach the Citadel? They didn't come from the Conduit with Saren, did they?

The implied history is that they fought their ways through the patrols. (And, implied by the implied, kept any distress signal from happening).

It also helps explain why the other species lost as much power as they did, despite not having all their eggs at the Citadel: Sovereign and the Geth plowed through some relay route or another.

[jbblue05]

Wolverfrog wrote...

In all honesty any option which doesn't involve saving the old Council is rather rubbish.

What makes you think that?

Letting the Council die is the best tactical choice to take against a monster like Sovereign

[DarkSeraphym]

jbblue05 wrote...
Why are you saying human-led don't you mean all-human. The turians are eager to bomb their problems. The Alliance need every ship they have they're not going to let them get slaughtered when their is another alternative..

Well, honestly the only reason I continue to say human-led is because of the glitch within the game that seems to make ME1 imports read "human-led" instead of "all-human". I allowed the Council to die the first chance I got, but the codex in all of my saves reads "human-led". For all intends and purposes, I could say "all-human", but I went with the accuracy in case someone should attempt to use it in an argument against me. As for the turians being trigger happy, this is quite accurate and I will contest to you that point. However, as far as I can tell, there are no examples from the game of the turians being in a position of opening fire on their own kind and thus I have nothing to compare it to from the actual game data.

You can't assume evrything is privately owned and I can't assume if iits
governement owned. Since most of the Citadel is Asari, Turian, and
Salarian exclusive. The governments could easily shut down their
businesses sure they would take losses but the Alliance would also. The
Alliance can't control a store if its not their anymore

I never assumed in the first place, I infered. There is a difference in the two situations. Assumptions must always be true according to the premises, this is one of the basic rules of logical reasoning. I opened the door to the possibility of it being either case when I said "As far as I can tell". You are right, I have no way of knowing which is which. However, I am going to infer (which does not attain the beyond a reasonable doubt burden of proof that assuming has) from the business that I have seen done on the Citadel, including the hundreds of ads we have to swallow while walking around in Mass Effect 2, that government involvement in business is at a level that allows for a thriving free market. I only infer it because the economy there does not appear to match any of the descriptions that normally fit a command economy, however it is still within the realm of possibility and thus I am only going to infer as much.

I could easily say your logic is just assumption that the Turians are
just trying to intimidate. The turians have shown in the past that they
are eager for a fight not to mention the Alliance and Turians have
bad-blood. The Asari siding with the Turians is a clear sign they don't
accept human rule.

You could, but once again I didn't make any assumptions by bumping the burden of proof up to beyond a reasonable doubt the way you did with the world "obvious". When you say obvious, that means to the reasonable person it is obvious that it is a certain way. I consider myself a reasonable person and had a different point of view, meaning the assumption that it was obvious was actually false. Likewise, take an analytical standpoint on the matter. You made an "if...then" judgement by saying "If the turians and asari are plotting, then obviously the asari would cede their share of defense to the turians". . However, the reason it is flawed is because the contrapositive "If the turians and asari are not plotting, then obviously the asari would not cede their share of defense to the turians" is not necessarily true. If I offer the condition that perhaps the asari simply don't support humanity's control and as such just handed their power off to someone else, this isn't necessarily an indication of plotting anymore. In logical contraposition, if the original composition is true, then the contrapositive must be as well; which is why I attacked it as an argument because the original is compelling, but the contrapositive isn't necessarily true at all.

I'm entirely open to the possibility that the turians and asari are plotting against humanity, in fact I used brinkmanship as a word in my conclusion for that very reason because it is an example of intimidation that can escalate into war. All that I am saying is that for the last 2 years in Mass Effect 2, for all intents and purposes the turians and asari have given no indication to plotting; I don't really see the point in a plot when you openly admit that you are increasing your production to your enemy. That, to me, seems like you are trying to intimidate the enemy with your production, which is a characteristic of brinkmanship.

The Volus would like their colonies protected more. If the Turians pull out their support the Volus would be prey to pirates and slavers. The Alliance is already overwhelmed by their responsibility they would deny the Volus request for defense. The Volus would only have two options have their economy ravaged by pirates or pull out economic support for the Alliance so the Turians will defend their colonies.

The Elcor don't like sudden change the Elcor have a strong alliance with the Asari and the non-human races. Humanity has no allies and their not doing themselves any favors by exempting other races from the Council.

There is no real indication that the turians are anymore fit to protect the Volus than humanity as far as I can tell. Perhaps this is a strain of the limitation of the story as well, but I don't really see the strain on humanity's ability to defense Council space as you do. Otherwise, I don't see at all why the Asari, Turians, and Salarians would delay a problem that is likely to correct itself with time. Once again, this is the "sleeping giant". Now simply because the three races are not attacking doesn't mean that humanity is strong enough to maintain the Council space, however it does mean they are stupid and illogical if that is the case. Why make a war more costly in the future if you can end it quickly now?

As for longstanding traditions in terms of culture, when it comes down to it I can think of few revolutions or coups that had allies merely out of culture. Alliances are created out of mutual gains, either by economics or power. The non-Council races certainly aren't going to gain power, as far as we can tell short of the Quarians none of them even maintain enough of a military to contribute to the defense of Council space, which is why they are non-members in the first place. So that eliminates the possibility of power gains. What about economic? Well really, if anyone should choose to leave behind the economic advantage that the Citadel brings as a massive hub of commerce, I don't see why the other species would consider that their own perogative. As far as I can tell, the turians, asari, and salarian still trade on the Citadel as much as ever in Mass Effect 2; getting involved in a war to overthrow the human Council still doesn't give them much gain here either. However I won't totally eliminate it as a possibility, maybe the Turians, Asari, and Salarians are willing to pay them for their help. By then, however, humanity still maintains political control of their commerce center and if the coup were to fail; they would lose access to it. In the long run, humanity has something they need more than the other races.

You can't over or underestimate the Council's drive its only been 2
years. Humanity didn't come to power traditionally they siezed power.
Humanity never faced the problem either they all have equal experience.
The only difference is the Alliance showed up at the last second while
the Council races endured most of the battle. The riots aren't isolated
its about Humanity siezing power and Destiny Ascension being blown up.
The turians aren't making up an Invasionary force the Alliance
confirmed it. The turians are militants they don't hide behind
politics.

Define seized power. Adolph Hitler seized power, however he did it in the traditional, legal manner. There is no evidence as far as I can tell on how humanity went about it other than Udina saying "the aliens will look to humanity for leadership". That doesn't necessarily imply that the aliens didn't put humanity into power first hoping that once things got back up and running that things would go back to normal. I digress however, seizing power is an end and the methods are going to differ. I was merely pointing out the possibility that humanity could have seized power that the aliens willingly abdicated to them at the time.

As for overestimating/underestimating the Council's drive, of course I can; within the bounds of your own argument anyway. Your argument earlier was that the human council didn't seem to make sense because the lore shows that all of the other races are far more powerful than humanity in nearly every respect. However if this were true, why would the aliens turn away from the logical response of just dealing with humanity now? You claim this is to bide time and make them weaker, however, what is the point in beating a dead horse? The horse is already dead, just as humanity is already weak enough for them to be overrun. This leaves me with two conclusions: either the logical response is actually false, which would require me to make changes to the Mass Effect lore and I have no power to do this or that emotions are driving the response of the other races, which does happen all of the time.

I'm a little confused by the end of your point as well and I think you may have made a typo because you left something out. I don't see how humanity seizing power and Destiny Ascension's destruction proves that the riots are not isolated incidents. Likewise, if the game has already admitted that the turians are not building an invasionary force, why are you and I even having this argument in the first place? If the turians intend to plot against the humans and use military might against them, that is probably going to require them to invade Citadel war space with their ships. More or less, I'm just asking you to clarify some points.

Alliance can't handle the responsibility that's why they are asking the
other races for help defending the Citadel. The Alliance can only
control the Citadel if the other races fall in line. If they don't the
Citadel would just be a large human colony.
I'm not comparing it to
the UN the Council has always been multi-racial an all-human Council is
different so an all-human Council can expect a different response from
its ciivillians

I apologize, I did not mean to imply you had made a comparison to the UN. I was speaking of a general comparison some make and the fact that you seemed to have some ideas that tied in with their own. Now you are right that the Citadel can only control the other races if they fall in line, however it appears that most of the other races are doing exactly that. If you abide by the laws of the Citadel and pay your taxes/fines, that is accepting power. What I wanted to point out is that the overall will of those who live in the Asari worlds, the Turian Hierarchy, or the Salarian Worlds have no effect over the laws/will of the Citadel because the Citadel is its own sovereign separate from their own, that was moreso the point I was attempting to make you understand with the analogy.

Bad analogy the turians, salarians. and asari are powerful and highly respected races throughout the galaxy.

What does respect have anything to do with my want to support or not support something? You can respect something without supporting it. The turians, salarians, and asari may be powerful; however humanity maintains control over their center of commerce and that is going to have an effect on swaying the non-Council races to your side.

The point is that sentient organic life is one of opportunists. This is why the Volus are so economically powerful and this is why humanity came into power in the first place. All that I am saying is short of sentimental value, there is little tangible gain for the non-Council races in getting involved in a rebellion at this point in time. They don't gain power and they don't gain any economically. The Volus might gain a possibly better equipped ally in defending themselves, however at the cost of possibly doing a great deal of damage to their assets on the Citadel, their center of commerce.

Correction: The Alliance doesn't know if you killed or saved the
Council they both deny the existence of the Reapers and write Sovereign
off as a Geth ship

Denying you know something is not a true indication of whether or not you actually know it. What we do know is that Sovereign's pieces were all swept up and immediately studied, which is how Cerberus was able to create EDI.

As for why humanity or the other races would deny it, why wouldn't they? For one thing, who wants to believe that a bunch of machines are going to attempt to come at them? Hell, they were probably hoping that Sovereign was the only one. Openly admitting that Sovereign was another threat could create panics and demands for doing something about a problem that has not actually become a problem yet.

Now why would they write Sovereign off as a Geth ship? Easy, the Geth are a convenient enemy. That is reason enough to use them.

I do play a renegade Shepard. If you save or kill the Council the
Alliance makes huge gains. The Alliance and the aliens never faced a
threat like the Reapers before. The Alliance got lucky but they didn't
have ships protecting the Citadel.

You're right, the alliance didn't have ships protecting the Citadel. Instead, they burst in right after the rest of the Citadel fleets were being decimated and succeeded where the other had failed. That creates some rather interesting implications for some, ones that can easily be used to help justify humanity taking leadership.

Why not let the Alliance strain itself with its responsibility while you rebuild in comfort. The aliens knows the Alliance's history they know the Alliance is just as oblivious to the Reaper threat just as they are.
What Humanity is doing is similar to what the Turians did to the Krogans, what STG did to the League of One, and what the Krogan did to the Rachni.
They are gaining respect from the other races. That doesn't mean they are going to willingly accept the race as a dictator

If it was an act of brinkmanship the Alliance would make things seem worse then they appear. The Alliance is trying to make everyone feel safe and things are back to normal

If the Alliance is so weak compared to the others, which was your argument from the start, why have the need to rebuild in the first place? Isn't this a contradiction? Also, isn't "the aliens knows the Alliance's history, they know the Alliance is just as oblivious to the Reaper threat just as they are" a contradiction? How can someone know that another organization knows nothing of a problem if you, in turn, don't know anything of the same problem?

For now, it does mean they are accepting it. The other races haven't pulled their embassies from the Citadel and also abide by the internal human laws on the Citadel. This is more than enough acceptance and obedience for humanity, for now anyway. Whether or not you like it is irrelevant, all that matters is that you are obedient. The Turian Hierarchy is testing the waters, but it still hasn't pulled its embassies from the Citadel.

Finally, my last point for brinkmanship, I never said humanity was involved in brinkmanship, the Turians are. Of course humanity is going to pretend everything is fine, it wants to maintain political stability. They certainly wont have that if they are spreading rumors.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 04 octobre 2010 - 11:59 .

[Randy1012]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I think I'm lost now...

So how did Sovereign and the Geth manage to bypass all those patrols and reach the Citadel? They didn't come from the Conduit with Saren, did they?

Since Sovereign was a Reaper, it knew of every mass relay in the galaxy and every possible route between them. The Citadel races have only explored about 1% of the galaxy by the time of ME1, so that's a lot of unknown relays out there. Sovereign could have just taken the geth through an unknown route bypassing all of the Citadel's blockades so that they couldn't warn the Council.

[FuturePasTimeCE]

i'd think that'd be impossible... that's like saying the batarians+krogans would overthrow the humans and take over the council eventually, and that they rightfully can do so...

[DarkSeraphym]

Shandepared wrote...

DarkSeraphym wrote...

Anyways, to clarify a point I was hoping to make but I don't think I did, I don't see humanity's rise to power in the Renegade ending to Mass Effect 1 as much as 30 years of merit as much as I see it as 30 years of sheer dumb luck and fortune events on the behalf of humanity that could easily go as follows:

While I do agree with you that humanity has been the beneficiary of a lot of luck I do think you are ignoring some of their merits. Their technological and military innovations have given them quite an edge and without them I don't think the Alliance would be nearly as powerful as they are. Carriers for example nearly double the influence of the Alliance fleet due to the fact that the Alliance has almost as many carriers as they do dreadnoughts (IIRC). Being able to slip around the Treaty of Farxien is important. Their other important innovations are medigel and the Normandy. Granted medi-gel has been adopted by everyone else too and the Normandy will eventually be replicated by other species, these innovations are still important. The stealth technology of the Normandy in particular gives the Alliance some unique advantages.

Perhaps another innovation is the war doctrine used by the Systems Alliance. It might be that this is merely a matter of convenience, but the references to Sun Tzu imply it was a conscious choice. Adopting this strategy has made the Alliance one of the most efficient navies in the galaxy.

I agree with you Shandepard. I overlooked some merit within the advancements of the Systems Alliance that I probably shouldn't have downplayed.

[FuturePasTimeCE]

Shandepared wrote...

Oh, my theory as to why the Council became so important to the Council races would be because of the wars with the rachni and the krogan. These were conflicts on an unprecedented scale that few can really comprehend. The conflict with the rachni lasted centuries and war with the krogan another century. In both cases the asari and salarians were pushed to the brink of defeat. To keep their war effort competitive they probably had to form a very close alliance and maintain it for a long time. The Council would have garnered much more importance as a result of this. For the salarians and turians in particular this means several generations of people born into a culture of war in which the Council is essential to keep the various armies working together.

After the wars ended nobody wanted those wars to repeat and so the Council stayed at the forefront to keep the galaxy stable. Each race as well realized that they could benefit by using the Council to maintain exclusive advantages on the Citadel, turning it into an exclusive club. A thousand years of relative peace bread complacency. The individual governments of the Council probably considered it merely an extension of themselves and so when it was wiped out so thoroughly (the codex states that many important members of the Council government beyond the actual councilors were lost on the Ascension and on the Presidium) left them stunned. Shell shock indeed, a major arm of their government vanished in an instant and they just aren't used to operating without it.

you pretty much summed up the mass effect universe's timeline in your theory. A summary. 

supposed it the "asari's" (wannabe vulcan elves) discovered the mass relays, and first encountered the salarians (wait it was the salarians discovering the citadel making contact with the asari's first... ahh, keepers do resemble salarians)... they both formed a interstellar community within the galaxy. The Salarians also gave advanced technology to the krogans or something... and then the krogans grew out of control with their expansion and concern over their rapidly growing nature developed, and something about the krogan rebelion... krogans were then the popular militarists of the alliance, until turians were thought of being better suited for the role...

i don't know... the time line is here about the M E universe... 

mass effect's universe is puny compared to star trek+star wars+star gate+battlestar+andromeda+babylon 5+lost in space

Modifié par FuturePasTimeCE, 05 octobre 2010 - 12:25 .

[jbblue05]

[quote]DarkSeraphym wrote...


Well, honestly the only reason I continue to say human-led is because of the glitch within the game that seems to make ME1 imports read "human-led" instead of "all-human". I allowed the Council to die the first chance I got, but the codex in all of my saves reads "human-led". For all intends and purposes, I could say "all-human", but I went with the accuracy in case someone should attempt to use it in an argument against me. As for the turians being trigger happy, this is quite accurate and I will contest to you that point. However, as far as I can tell, there are no examples from the game of the turians being in a position of opening fire on their own kind and thus I have nothing to compare it to from the actual game data.

[/quote]
Say all-human council then because I have no problems witth a human-led council.
Turians have shown they will  fire on their own kind "Unification War"  Plus the turians don't have to attack the Citadel attack Alliance ships

[quote]
I never assumed in the first place, I infered. There is a difference in the two situations. Assumptions must always be true according to the premises, this is one of the basic rules of logical reasoning. I opened the door to the possibility of it being either case when I said "As far as I can tell". You are right, I have no way of knowing which is which. However, I am going to infer (which does not attain the beyond a reasonable doubt burden of proof that assuming has) from the business that I have seen done on the Citadel, including the hundreds of ads we have to swallow while walking around in Mass Effect 2, that government involvement in business is at a level that allows for a thriving free market. I only infer it because the economy there does not appear to match any of the descriptions that normally fit a command economy, however it is still within the realm of possibility and thus I am only going to infer as much.
[/quote]
Infer is just a prettier way to say assume.  We're both going off the same information and we both derive different opinions.
So therefore this argument is pointless 

[quote]
You could, but once again I didn't make any assumptions by bumping the burden of proof up to beyond a reasonable doubt the way you did with the world "obvious". When you say obvious, that means to the reasonable person it is obvious that it is a certain way. I consider myself a reasonable person and had a different point of view, meaning the assumption that it was obvious was actually false. Likewise, take an analytical standpoint on the matter. You made an "if...then" judgement by saying "If the turians and asari are plotting, then obviously the asari would cede their share of defense to the turians". . However, the reason it is flawed is because the contrapositive "If the turians and asari are not plotting, then obviously the asari would not cede their share of defense to the turians" is not necessarily true. If I offer the condition that perhaps the asari simply don't support humanity's control and as such just handed their power off to someone else, this isn't necessarily an indication of plotting anymore. In logical contraposition, if the original composition is true, then the contrapositive must be as well; which is why I attacked it as an argument because the original is compelling, but the contrapositive isn't necessarily true at all.
[/quote]
We're both going off the same information.  I don't see how I'm assuming and your being logical.
You say their are trying to intimidate I say they are plotting.  Plotting and intimidating are one and the same.
I can easily say your being contrapositive. also.

[quote]
I'm entirely open to the possibility that the turians and asari are plotting against humanity, in fact I used brinkmanship as a word in my conclusion for that very reason because it is an example of intimidation that can escalate into war. All that I am saying is that for the last 2 years in Mass Effect 2, for all intents and purposes the turians and asari have given no indication to plotting; I don't really see the point in a plot when you openly admit that you are increasing your production to your enemy. That, to me, seems like you are trying to intimidate the enemy with your production, which is a characteristic of brinkmanship.
[/quote]
If you can't believe they are plotting when their is evidence that they are underminding Alliance and playing dirty politics.
Then that's your opinion and I have mines.  Turians, Asari and the Alliance are both using brinkmanship it doesn't mean their isn't more behind their intentions  All 3 of them are doing a poor job of brinkmanship

[quote]
There is no real indication that the turians are anymore fit to protect the Volus than humanity as far as I can tell. Perhaps this is a strain of the limitation of the story as well, but I don't really see the strain on humanity's ability to defense Council space as you do. Otherwise, I don't see at all why the Asari, Turians, and Salarians would delay a problem that is likely to correct itself with time. Once again, this is the "sleeping giant". Now simply because the three races are not attacking doesn't mean that humanity is strong enough to maintain the Council space, however it does mean they are stupid and illogical if that is the case. Why make a war more costly in the future if you can end it quickly now?
[/quote]
Their is indication that the Turians are more fit they have twice as many ships then any other Council Race.  Humans are overwhelmed by their responsibility so they aren't fit to protect the Citadel, Human, and volus colonies.
The Humans are begging the other races to help them defend the Citadel and TIM even tells you the Alliance is overwhelmed.  If  the Alliance is willing to let former Council races back on the Council then most problems will correct itself.  The fromer Council races just want a multi-racial Council not a human-led Council.
[quote]
As for longstanding traditions in terms of culture, when it comes down to it I can think of few revolutions or coups that had allies merely out of culture. Alliances are created out of mutual gains, either by economics or power. The non-Council races certainly aren't going to gain power, as far as we can tell short of the Quarians none of them even maintain enough of a military to contribute to the defense of Council space, which is why they are non-members in the first place. So that eliminates the possibility of power gains. What about economic? Well really, if anyone should choose to leave behind the economic advantage that the Citadel brings as a massive hub of commerce, I don't see why the other species would consider that their own perogative. As far as I can tell, the turians, asari, and salarian still trade on the Citadel as much as ever in Mass Effect 2; getting involved in a war to overthrow the human Council still doesn't give them much gain here either. However I won't totally eliminate it as a possibility, maybe the Turians, Asari, and Salarians are willing to pay them for their help. By then, however, humanity still maintains political control of their commerce center and if the coup were to fail; they would lose access to it. In the long run, humanity has something they need more than the other races.
[/quote]
The Aliens have enough fleets to control their own space they have to rebuild the ships lost to defending the Citadel.
What happens when the former Council races have enough ships to protect the Citadel?   If the Asari, Turian, Salarian stop trading with the Citadel and the Alliance they would suffer but the Alliance would hurt more and severely crippled with their major trade partners refusing to trade with them.  The main objective is to weaken the Alliance  and right now the Alliance has no allies to count on

[quote]
Define seized power. Adolph Hitler seized power, however he did it in the traditional, legal manner. There is no evidence as far as I can tell on how humanity went about it other than Udina saying "the aliens will look to humanity for leadership". That doesn't necessarily imply that the aliens didn't put humanity into power first hoping that once things got back up and running that things would go back to normal. I digress however, seizing power is an end and the methods are going to differ. I was merely pointing out the possibility that humanity could have seized power that the aliens willingly abdicated to them at the time.
[/quote]
What's your point?  I said the Council races let the Alliance take the lead to defend the Citadel while they rebuild.

[quote]
As for overestimating/underestimating the Council's drive, of course I can; within the bounds of your own argument anyway. Your argument earlier was that the human council didn't seem to make sense because the lore shows that all of the other races are far more powerful than humanity in nearly every respect. However if this were true, why would the aliens turn away from the logical response of just dealing with humanity now? You claim this is to bide time and make them weaker, however, what is the point in beating a dead horse? The horse is already dead, just as humanity is already weak enough for them to be overrun. This leaves me with two conclusions: either the logical response is actually false, which would require me to make changes to the Mass Effect lore and I have no power to do this or that emotions are driving the response of the other races, which does happen all of the time.
[/quote]

Again what's your point?  I already said the Aliens needed the Alliance to protect the Citadel for the time being.
If the Alliance makes enemies with the Council races then they would be deallt with. 

[quote]
I'm a little confused by the end of your point as well and I think you may have made a typo because you left something out. I don't see how humanity seizing power and Destiny Ascension's destruction proves that the riots are not isolated incidents. Likewise, if the game has already admitted that the turians are not building an invasionary force, why are you and I even having this argument in the first place? If the turians intend to plot against the humans and use military might against them, that is probably going to require them to invade Citadel war space with their ships. More or less, I'm just asking you to clarify some points.
[/quote]

The riots aren't isolated because its about Humanity's rise to power and the events that led up to it and the aftermath.
If you read my earlier posts. the Turians and the other races don't have to fire a shot all they have to do is overwhelm the Alliance and force them to step down.  If the Alliance refuse or open fire then the Turians and the other races would open fire



[quote]
I apologize, I did not mean to imply you had made a comparison to the UN. I was speaking of a general comparison some make and the fact that you seemed to have some ideas that tied in with their own. Now you are right that the Citadel can only control the other races if they fall in line, however it appears that most of the other races are doing exactly that. If you abide by the laws of the Citadel and pay your taxes/fines, that is accepting power. What I wanted to point out is that the overall will of those who live in the Asari worlds, the Turian Hierarchy, or the Salarian Worlds have no effect over the laws/will of the Citadel because the Citadel is its own sovereign separate from their own, that was moreso the point I was attempting to make you understand with the analogy.
[/quote]
The other races will stay in line as long as the Alliance is heavily relied on to protect the Citadel. 
The Alliance can only stay in power if their rule is acknowledged and accepted by the Turians, Asari, and Salarians.
The Turians, Asari, and Salarians are proud and powerful species they aren't going to accept a human dictatorship


[quote]
What does respect have anything to do with my want to support or not support something? You can respect something without supporting it. The turians, salarians, and asari may be powerful; however humanity maintains control over their center of commerce and that is going to have an effect on swaying the non-Council races to your side.

The point is that sentient organic life is one of opportunists. This is why the Volus are so economically powerful and this is why humanity came into power in the first place. All that I am saying is short of sentimental value, there is little tangible gain for the non-Council races in getting involved in a rebellion at this point in time. They don't gain power and they don't gain any economically. The Volus might gain a possibly better equipped ally in defending themselves, however at the cost of possibly doing a great deal of damage to their assets on the Citadel, their center of commerce.
[/quote]
Judging by ME2 and Retribution the Alliance doesn't have powerful allies. I wouldn't say they are easily swaying other races.  Respect goes a long way the non-human races have relied and helped each other way longer then the Alliance has been around.
Organic life are oppurtunists  a multi-racial counci seems more beneficial then an all-human Council.  Short-term losses doesn't matter as long as their is a long-term gain.
Their is a lot more to gain from overthrowing an all-human Council and restoring the Council that led to a 1000+ years of peace.

[quote]
Denying you know something is not a true indication of whether or not you actually know it. What we do know is that Sovereign's pieces were all swept up and immediately studied, which is how Cerberus was able to create EDI.

As for why humanity or the other races would deny it, why wouldn't they? For one thing, who wants to believe that a bunch of machines are going to attempt to come at them? Hell, they were probably hoping that Sovereign was the only one. Openly admitting that Sovereign was another threat could create panics and demands for doing something about a problem that has not actually become a problem yet.
[/quote]
The Turians obtained the Thanix Cannon.  I know they don't publicly acknowledge the Reaper threat but their is no indication that they secretly believe in the Reapers and are preparing to battle them in dark space.
[quote]
Now why would they write Sovereign off as a Geth ship? Easy, the Geth are a convenient enemy. That is reason enough to use them.
[/quote]
no crap I already know that.

[quote]
You're right, the alliance didn't have ships protecting the Citadel. Instead, they burst in right after the rest of the Citadel fleets were being decimated and succeeded where the other had failed. That creates some rather interesting implications for some, ones that can easily be used to help justify humanity taking leadership.
[/quote]
These implications can work against humanity also.
Humanity wasn't in the main battle they weren't their  to take on the blunt of the damage.
If the Council fleets didn't get in Sovereign's way SOvereign would have took control of the Citadel faster.
Humanity's appearance is a matter  of convience not an indication that the Alliance are experts on taking down Geth and the Reapers.

[quote]
If the Alliance is so weak compared to the others, which was your argument from the start, why have the need to rebuild in the first place? Isn't this a contradiction? Also, isn't "the aliens knows the Alliance's history, they know the Alliance is just as oblivious to the Reaper threat just as they are" a contradiction? How can someone know that another organization knows nothing of a problem if you, in turn, don't know anything of the same problem?
[/quote]
Shows you haven't been following this thread.  My argument from the start is the Alliance is no match for the combined efforts of the Coucnil and Citadel races.  The other races know the Alliance have no prior experience with the Reapers all the Alliance has done is Shanxi, Eden Prime, Mindoir, Torfan, Elysium, and Armstrong Nebula. 
If the Alliance knew about the Reapers why did they claim Shepard was going insane and doesn't speak for the Alliance

[quote]
For now, it does mean they are accepting it. The other races haven't pulled their embassies from the Citadel and also abide by the internal human laws on the Citadel. This is more than enough acceptance and obedience for humanity, for now anyway. Whether or not you like it is irrelevant, all that matters is that you are obedient. The Turian Hierarchy is testing the waters, but it still hasn't pulled its embassies from the Citadel.
[/quote]
Yes, for now.as I have been saying all along

[quote]
Finally, my last point for brinkmanship, I never said humanity was involved in brinkmanship, the Turians are. Of course humanity is going to pretend everything is fine, it wants to maintain political stability. They certainly wont have that if they are spreading rumors.[/quote]
Maybe you didn't you do write huge paragraphs.
If humanity wants to stay in power they should use brinkmanship to make it seem like the other races need them only in power.
If the Alliance makes it seem like everything is back to normal the other races would demand the Alliance return to a traditional Council since the Alliance loses its leverage. 

Modifié par jbblue05, 05 octobre 2010 - 02:52 .

[DarkSeraphym]

[quote]jbblue05 wrote...

Say all-human council then because I have no problems witth a human-led council.
Turians have shown they will  fire on their own kind "Unification War"  Plus the turians don't have to attack the Citadel attack Alliance ships[/quote]

The Unification War is hardly a fair comparison, that is a civil war. We aren't talking about a civil war here, we are talking a foreign political entity that controls a station loaded with multiple different races. Even a hostage situation isn't necessarily a fair comparison looking back on it.

As for attacking the Alliance ships, does attacking the Alliance ships remove the human Council? The only reason it removed the former Council with respect to Sovereign is because of evacuation. Take a look at the history of modern warfare from roughly World War I to now. A common element in modern warfare is that even if you are able to wipe out the military, you often times still have to go into the capital city to wipe out any remaining resistance and overthrow the government there. However unlike a city, this is a space station loaded to the brim with multiple species. Attempting this could become rather costly to the turians.

[quote]Infer is just a prettier way to say assume.  We're both going off the same information and we both derive different opinions.
So therefore this argument is pointless
[/quote]

I don't want to dwell too much on technicalities, but look up the definition of infer and assumption with respect to logical reasoning and you will see that they are nothing alike. An inference has a burden of proof of 51% truth, 49% false while an assumption must be 100% true. They are nothing alike. An inference leaves open the possibility that it could be wrong, an assumption leave no such possibility. So no, they aren't the samething.

So if you and I have the exact same information and we both derive a different opinion due to interpretation, then the opinions are automatically the equivalent of one another? That can't possibly be the case, especially in this situation because either the story doesn't fit and there is no way the humans can be able to keep power or they can. This is not a paradox, both cannot be true at the sametime. Either you are right and I am wrong, or I am right and you are wrong. If this were not true, you and I could both say we are both right and have nothing left to argue about.

If the argument is pointless then how come a friend of mine and I can work on logical reasoning questions with the exact same information and yet come to entirely different answers on the problem? The answer is simply, the logical process we used in answering the question is in error if we attempt to compare the two. It is entirely possible for two people to have the same information and have wildly different answers on that information if the logical process in attaining those answers is in error for one of us, possibly even both of us.

[quote]We're both going off the same information.  I don't see how I'm assuming and your being logical.
You say their are trying to intimidate I say they are plotting.  Plotting and intimidating are one and the same.
I can easily say your being contrapositive. also. [/quote]

Logical doesn't necessarily entail being correct. Logical merely means that from the given premises of an argument, I am able to make factual assumptions and more likely true than not inferences, kind of similar in manner to how people came to the conclusion that the world was flat due to known premises at the time. Those premises would cause one to conclude rather logically that the world was flat, but we know today that claim is entirely false.

Anyways, back to the point. What made your argument illogical is that you used the word "obvious", if you hadn't then your argument went have been entirely sound. I never attacked the idea behind your argument, I attacked the argument itself. Since you used the word "obvious" you made an assumption, which requires 100% truth given the premises. I was merely challenging you to change the use of certain words to make your argument more sound because your conditional set-up of the argument is not entirely sound. You placed a higher burden on yourself to prove something that not even I was attempting to burden myself with. I thought I'd attempt to help your argument by pointing out that burden .

A person can't be contrapositive, a person can be contradictory but not contrapositive. The contrapositive of an argument, such as "if...then" arguments has the words "not" placed into such as "If there are jays in the forest, then robins are in the forest." The contrapositive of that argument is that "If there are no robins in the forest, then there are no jays in the forest." This makes sense, as it should. An argument is a sound one if both the argument and its contrapositive are true.

[quote]If you can't believe they are plotting when their is evidence that they are underminding Alliance and playing dirty politics.
Then
that's your opinion and I have mines.  Turians, Asari and the Alliance
are both using brinkmanship it doesn't mean their isn't more behind
their intentions  All 3 of them are doing a poor job of brinkmanship
[/quote]

I'm a little confused here, I do apologize because there is a potential that I am simply not reading the question properly. I never once said that there couldn't be more behind their intentions. In fact, brinkmanship is an extremely dangerous policy because it can quickly turn into an intention of going to war anyways; which I mentioned once before. All that I'm saying is that there other possibilities as to why the Asari and Turians might be going about this the way they are.


[quote]
Their is indication that the Turians are more fit they have twice as
many ships then any other Council Race.  Humans are overwhelmed by their
responsibility so they aren't fit to protect the Citadel, Human, and
volus colonies.
The Humans are begging the other races to help them
defend the Citadel and TIM even tells you the Alliance is overwhelmed. 
If  the Alliance is willing to let former Council races back on the
Council then most problems will correct itself.  The fromer Council
races just want a multi-racial Council not a human-led Council.
[/quote]

Yes, you've established that the Turians are more fit to defend just aobut anyone than the Humans. However, as far as I can tell, the problem with the Volus is that they are being attacked by pirates and lack any military might on their own to do anything about it. Do we know how many attacks happen to the Volus on average? Do we know what kind of firepower these pirates have? Do we know exactly how  much ships it actually takes to escort Volus ships?

The problem will correct itself by the other races gaining enough votes to remove humanity from the Council entirely if it so chose to do so. Besides, if you think the other races have taken to having no seat on the Council from the former regime lightly then what about Din Korlack? He only hates humans in Mass Effect 1 because the Volus have wanted a seat forever and been denied it time and time again, yet by Mass Effect 1 things are beginning to look like the humans will gain the seat that the Volus have always wanted. This is an example of misplaced hatred, his anger should be pointed at the former Council regime that denied them their seat in the first place.

What I'm trying to point out to you is what you call "multi-species" is actually a collection of Asari, Turian, Salarian, and Human power if they could have their way with it. None of the other species have been given a seat because they lack the necessary contributions to accept the responsibility that comes with becoming a Council race. This is precisely what they will get with the human administration as well, absolutely no seat. So why should the Volus really care who is running the show when either way they are stuck with the Fantastic Four that will not give them their seat, or the tyrants who will still not give them their seats on the Council?

[quote]The Aliens have enough fleets to control their own space they have to rebuild the ships lost to defending the Citadel.
What
happens when the former Council races have enough ships to protect the
Citadel?   If the Asari, Turian, Salarian stop trading with the Citadel
and the Alliance they would suffer but the Alliance would hurt more
and severely crippled with their major trade partners refusing to trade
with them.  The main objective is to weaken the Alliance  and right now
the Alliance has no allies to count on
[/quote]

Trade is a two-way street my friend. "There is no such thing as a free lunch", its a phrase used by economists all of the time. If the Galactic Trio pull out of the Citadel, they will suffer as well. If they weren't going to suffer from it, then that would mean that the trades with the Citadel were valueless to them anyways, which is counterfactual to the principles of basic economics. If the humans are profiting on the Citadel, so are the other species. That is the way trade works: trade is beneficial for both parties. Otherwise, the other races would have stopped trading long ago.

Even if they were able to build their own similar structure elsewhere, we know from the game that the Reapers built the Citadel as the "hill everyone wants to stand on" in a manner of speaking. It was placed in a strategic location so that under all circumstances, the Citadel would always be found by sentient life. Why? What about the Citadel causes this? Why would all organic life ultimately come into contact with this place and make it their seat of government? What I think is likely the case is that a large portion of the Mass Effect Relays lead straight to the Citadel itself, meaning that if the other species were to build their own government elsewhere, they would give up all of the benefits that come with a location that so many seem to have access to. 


[quote]
What's your point?  I said the Council races let the Alliance take the lead to defend the Citadel while they rebuild.
[/quote]

My point is that your original argument is that it didn't make sense that the Alliance could take control of the Citadel and maintain control of it. I offered a counterargument.

[quote]Again what's your point?  I already said the Aliens needed the Alliance to protect the Citadel for the time being.
If the Alliance makes enemies with the Council races then they would be deallt with. 
[/quote]

Same as above.



[quote]The riots aren't isolated because its about Humanity's rise to power and the events that led up to it and the aftermath.
If
you read my earlier posts. the Turians and the other races don't have
to fire a shot all they have to do is overwhelm the Alliance and force
them to step down.  If the Alliance refuse or open fire then the Turians
and the other races would open fire
[/quote]

Isolated is a rationalization of the frequency and intensity of those riots. Isolation has nothing to do with the cause of the riots or the aftermath. That is why I got confused by the statement, I think you might have been confused as to what isolated riots was attempting to rationalize.

Once again, isn't this a contradiction? You say the Turians and other races won't have to fire a shot, then mention at the end that the Turians and other races could have to open fire? How will the Turians overwhelm humanity without attacking them? You can bring your gun and I'll bring my baseball bat, but your gun won't beat me if you aren't willing to use. That was the point I was attempting to make. Humanity is not going to just step down just because the Turians demand them to do so with their fleets. The Turians will have to force humanity to do so with those fleets, which is going to mean bloodshed.

quote]
The other races will stay in line as long as the Alliance is heavily relied on to protect the Citadel. 
The Alliance can only stay in power if their rule is acknowledged and accepted by the Turians, Asari, and Salarians.
The Turians, Asari, and Salarians are proud and powerful species they aren't going to accept a human dictatorship
[/quote]

I think you may have missed the point. The rule of humanity has already been acknowledged and accepted because they are obeying the internal laws of the Citadel and paying for the human Council to exist in the first place (in the form of fines and such). What we are debating on now is whether or not they will continue to do so, which it turns out you and I agree that they will not. What you and I do not agree upon, as it seems, is that the longer they wait; the harder it will be to take it all back.

[quote]
Judging by ME2 and Retribution the Alliance doesn't have powerful
allies. I wouldn't say they are easily swaying other races.  Respect
goes a long way the non-human races have relied and helped each other
way longer then the Alliance has been around.
Organic life are
oppurtunists  a multi-racial counci seems more beneficial then an
all-human Council.  Short-term losses doesn't matter as long as their is
a long-term gain.
Their is a lot more to gain from overthrowing an all-human Council and restoring the Council that led to a 1000+ years of peace.
[/quote]

You and I can agree on one thing, a multi-racial council is more beneficial as a whole than an all-human Council however I only agree on this term because it ultimately makes more people happy (The Salarians, Turians, and Asari as opposed to just Humanity). However, what I am pointing out is that the former council wasn't any better for those who weren't being represented anymore than the all-human council is. Either way, they won't get their seats because they lack enough resources to accept the burden of responsibility that comes with gaining a seat on the Council. They may gain them over time, but my example of Din Korlack is an example of those who were becoming annoyed at being denied seats on the Council

[quote]
The Turians obtained the Thanix Cannon.  I know they don't publicly
acknowledge the Reaper threat but their is no indication that they
secretly believe in the Reapers and are preparing to battle them in dark
space.
[/quote]

They don't have to. All I was doing was offering you a different explanation as to why it might appear that they don't have knowledge of the Reapers.

[quote]
no crap I already know that.
[/quote]

You asked and I answered. No reason to become rude about it.

[quote]These implications can work against humanity also.
Humanity wasn't in the main battle they weren't their  to take on the blunt of the damage.
If the Council fleets didn't get in Sovereign's way SOvereign would have took control of the Citadel faster.
Humanity's appearance
is a matter  of convience not an indication that the Alliance are
experts on taking down Geth and the Reapers.
[/quote]

The Council Fleets involvement with respect to time is very irrelevant. It didn't matter if they put up a resistance sooner rather than later, that resistance ultimately didn't matter. The point is it took humanity to bring down Sovereign. I think you are underestimating humanity's role in the destruction of Sovereign and giving a little too much credit to the Council Fleets, who couldn't have even fought against Sovereign if they wanted to once it locked the arms of the Citadel. The point is that it took Shepard, a trained Alliance Soldier/Human SPECTRE to open the arms of the Citadel. It also took Shepard destroying Saren twice to deactivate the kinetic barriers of Sovereign and open up to attack from human vessels.  Why should the Council Fleets get credit for something they failed to do?

In this case, is humanity's lack of losses something to count against it? The only reason that humanity didn't take an active role in the battle from the get-go is because it was waiting for Shepard to get in through the Conduit onto the Citadel and then open up the arms of the Citadel. Really, humanity's backing off and delaying the shots until they counted seems more like a saving grace then something to criticize them for. The Council underestimated the threat of the Reapers and the Geth, they ended up wasting time firing shots at a machine that was just going to prevent them from being able to fire at it anyway. In my eyes, the Council is fortunate that humanity chose to sit back until the shots mattered.

[quote]Shows you haven't been following this thread.  My argument from the
start is the Alliance is no match for the combined efforts of the
Coucnil and Citadel races.  The other races know the Alliance have no
prior experience with the Reapers all the Alliance has done is Shanxi,
Eden Prime, Mindoir, Torfan, Elysium, and Armstrong Nebula. 
If the Alliance knew about the Reapers why did they claim Shepard was going insane and doesn't speak for the Alliance
[/quote]

The other races have experience with the Reapers? If I recall, the Turian Councillor is quoted as saying "The Reapers are nothing more than a myth. Where did they go? Why did they vanish? Why haven't we found them?" As far as I am concerned, the other races are just as inexperienced as humanity is when it comes to this subject. This is precisely why they were utterly destroyed at the Battle of the Citadel.

As for why the Alliance would claim Shepard was going insane, why would they publicly claim the ship was a Geth Ship and then endorse Shepard? Seems rather counterproductive if you want to keep your stories straight, especially with the level of influence Shepard has.


[quote]
Yes, for now.as I have been saying all along
[/quote]

As I said, this is where we agree. Where we appear to disagree is on the level of threat humanity can be if they continue to sit around twiddling their thumbs. Your argument is that with time, the former Council Races will have gained more power and thus they continue to sit back. My argument is that while this is true, humanity will also grow more powerful as well; especially if you are ReneShep.

[quote]
Maybe you didn't you do write huge paragraphs.
If humanity wants to stay in power they should use brinkmanship to make it seem like the other races need them only in power.
If the Alliance makes it seem like everything is back to normal the other races would demand the Alliance return to a traditional Council since the Alliance loses its leverage. 
[/quote]

I do a lot of writing sadly. Law school demands a lot of it. It's a habit that has been hard for me to break in casual writing, I apologize if I made anyone strain their eyes .

I agree, humanity should use brinkmanship to make it seem like the other races need them. I was just merely pointing out that humanity hasn't really done a whole lot of it yet that I have seen in Mass Effect 2. Most of the initiative I have seen for maintaining power is the rather ambitious goals of Cerberus. I tried as much as possible to avoid normative statements.

By the way jbblue, I just wanted to thank you for this exchange of arguments. I actually have a debate I have to make on the legal implications, justifications, and consquences of profiling against people of Middle Eastern descent. You wouldn't believe how hard it can be to get practice in debate around here sometimes, so I do appreciate this opportunity for some practice; even though this isn't a face-to-face kind of thing.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 05 octobre 2010 - 05:03 .

[Arijharn]

I agree with DarkSeraphym, to me it seems illogical to assume that during the period where the former council races are increasing in power than humanity wouldn't be as well. While space is a vacuum, politics isn't. Trade will continue as before and humanity would be getting as strong (given their position) as the former races, if not actually stronger due to their position and the slight political advantages they could have.