127 réponses à ce sujet

[Schneidend]

As much as I'd like to see it, it's been pointed out countless times in this thread how difficult it would be to portray. They've basically already handled it in the best way possible with Ashley's conversation. It would be nice to have it reaffirmed later, though, depending on what you said. Perhaps if Ash can be recruited in ME3 she'll remember your answer and talk about it more.

[Skyblade012]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Yeah I mean, it's a common expression even if one doesn't believe in God. An atheist Shepard is still more likely to say "My god! She's still alive!" at Kelly being liquefied than say..."Great googly-moogly! She's still alive!"

Now this is a line I want to hear from Shepard.

[asaiasai]

The problem in the world today is all of this religious whacko nonsense. One can not do anything or go anywhere with out having some religious nut job accosting you in the parking lot with assinine questions like "have you found Jesus?". I never knew he was missing. There is no "have you seen me" pictures of Jesus on the side of milk cartons. Are we stupid hairless monkeys still convinced that the answer to all of the problems in life is religion.



The world is screwed up enough with all of the divergent religious belief systems floating around, the inane mumbo jumbo of an archaic superstition which motivates every mouth breather to perpetrate random acts of violence because some one chooses to call the fictional man made creation by a different name. Completely and totaly forgetting the basic tenants of faith. All must come to god of thier own accord. The only sins you have to atone for are your own. The most important thing is that the only difference between one religion and another is who collects the vig on Sunday.



We have all this religious strife in the world today, Christo-fascists, Islamo-fascists at each others throats when ALL religions are bupkis, all religions are the control of the masses through guilt and fear. Now some chowder head wants to add this ficticious nonsense into the game and has collected 4 pages of discussion concerning the addition of assinine and inane concepts into the only place where an individual can escape from the totalitarianism that is religious indoctrination. Get a grip people, man created god in the image he strives to attain all in an attempt to earn a buck selling fear to idiots because it is easier to make a living waving a bible, torah, quran than a car/camel fax.



NO TO RELIGION IN ME, NO TO RELIGION IN REAL LIFE, god is dead and lets see to it that is the way it stays, unless of course you live in the middle east or the deep south, then ignorance prevails.



Asai

[Inquisitor Recon]

asaiasai wrote...

The problem in the world today is all of this religious whacko nonsense. One can not do anything or go anywhere with out having some religious nut job accosting you in the parking lot with assinine questions like "have you found Jesus?". I never knew he was missing. There is no "have you seen me" pictures of Jesus on the side of milk cartons. Are we stupid hairless monkeys still convinced that the answer to all of the problems in life is religion.

The world is screwed up enough with all of the divergent religious belief systems floating around, the inane mumbo jumbo of an archaic superstition which motivates every mouth breather to perpetrate random acts of violence because some one chooses to call the fictional man made creation by a different name. Completely and totaly forgetting the basic tenants of faith. All must come to god of thier own accord. The only sins you have to atone for are your own. The most important thing is that the only difference between one religion and another is who collects the vig on Sunday.

We have all this religious strife in the world today, Christo-fascists, Islamo-fascists at each others throats when ALL religions are bupkis, all religions are the control of the masses through guilt and fear. Now some chowder head wants to add this ficticious nonsense into the game and has collected 4 pages of discussion concerning the addition of assinine and inane concepts into the only place where an individual can escape from the totalitarianism that is religious indoctrination. Get a grip people, man created god in the image he strives to attain all in an attempt to earn a buck selling fear to idiots because it is easier to make a living waving a bible, torah, quran than a car/camel fax.

NO TO RELIGION IN ME, NO TO RELIGION IN REAL LIFE, god is dead and lets see to it that is the way it stays, unless of course you live in the middle east or the deep south, then ignorance prevails.

Asai

Cool trollin bro. Go live in North Korea you ignorant godless fool. I loathe those like yourself who probably have never even touched a history book yet blame religion for everything bad ever.

Modifié par ReconTeam, 03 octobre 2010 - 05:55 .

[Schneidend]

Do you feel better or worse after getting that blatantly ignorant, pseudo-intellectual rant off of your chest?

[Revan312]

asaiasai wrote...

The problem in the world today is all of this religious whacko nonsense. etc etc *snip*

Now I'm about as Atheist as it gets, and ya, a lot of that rant I agree with you, but what's more preposterous than having a discussion about adding religious moments injected into a videogame? A giant rant on your personal belief about religion on a videogame board...

Plus your saying the same thing we've all heard a thousand times. There's not a person on this board that hasn't read pretty much that exact rant ad nausium. Your not changing anyone's minds with it, believe me, I've done it myself, so just stop..

Oh, and you make all Atheists look like unintelligent fools with your mumbling about perpetuating violent acts on others because of their differing beliefs. Ya, that's true, and you know what else is? Perpetrating violent acts on others for about a billion other reasons. For every religiously driven act of violence there's another not fueled by it. For every crusade there's a Stalin and for every jihad there's a Mao I always say.

ReconTeam wrote...

Cool trollin bro. Go live in North Korea you ignorant godless fool. I loathe those like yourself who probably have never even touched a history book yet blame religion for everything bad ever.

Your just adding more fuel to the fire, let's not get into a religious debate here, that's for another thread, if you wish to start it in the off topic forum, go ahead, I'll be there debating with you if you do create one.

Back on topic, if Bioware were to make it as ambiguous as they did in the first game I wouldn't mind at all. Shepard needs all the development he/she can get and having a vague nod at that decision from the first game would be cool.

Modifié par Revan312, 03 octobre 2010 - 06:20 .

[Zan51]

I'm not a christian, nor a follower of any religion, or an atheist, so any inclusion of religion in the game, even saying a prayer, would really offend me. I don't mind contemplative moments before the suicide mission, but I would rather look at the picture of Kaidan, as I did in game, than even look out at the stars!
Everyone deals with such moments their own way. Religion is not needed as a defining personal trait built into the game. It is an RPG, so please go RPG whatever religious belief you want, guys, but do not force them on me. You are opening a whole can of worms you do not want to open if you do that. 

[Inquisitor Recon]

Revan312 wrote...
Your just adding more fuel to the fire, let's not get into a religious debate here, that's for another thread, if you wish to start it in the off topic forum, go ahead, I'll be there debating with you if you do create one.

Back on topic, if Bioware were to make it as ambiguous as they did in the first game I wouldn't mind at all. Shepard needs all the development he/she can get and having a vague nod at that decision from the first game would be cool.

Isn't there a total ban on religious and political topics (and rightfully so)? Sometimes it is hard to ignore garbage like that. There is a 90% chance I hate pretty much everything he stands for and the same may apply to you, but at least you have the courtesy not to go on such a foolish rant.

[Revan312]

ReconTeam wrote...

Isn't there a total ban on religious and political topics (and rightfully so)? Sometimes it is hard to ignore garbage like that. There is a 90% chance I hate pretty much everything he stands for and the same may apply to you, but at least you have the courtesy not to go on such a foolish rant.

If there is a ban on all religious or political topics then nevermind.. I guess that's for the best, they would outgrow the talimancers afterall, I've been a part of them <_<

And ya, in real life we wouldn't get along well, but that's the joy of the internet and forums, we can ignore it and move on:P

[khevan]

First, for the record I am what I call an "informal" Christian. I won't go into more detail because I'm not here for a religious debate. But, I draw attention to the fact that I have religious views to give some context to my following statements.

The only way I'd support any sort of religious expression for Shepard him/herself is if it is vague, non-specific, and non-conversational. There are too many religions on Earth today for anything more than a passing nod at some sort of belief by Shepard to not offend someone.

An "obvious" folded hands Christian prayer could offend Muslims, who kneel facing Mecca to pray. A kneeling, praying Shepard could offend Christians who think it could be saying Shepard is a Muslim, etc. A simple bowed head, with closed eyes, for a brief couple of seconds, with no other symbology or anything that could be interpreted the wrong way is the only way, I feel, of doing something like this without it being potentially offensive.

As far as being non-conversational, like I said earlier, there are too many factors, too many different people who play Shepard, for anything more than the line in ME1 to make sense. Anything more than "I've been in alot of foxholes" carries meaning that could unintentionally make people think Shepard is trying to be one religion vs. another. It'd be too hard, in my opinion, to equal or better ME1's treatment of the subject in a conversation.

For all of the reasons above, I'd prefer it if there were an option like what was suggested earlier, a blue box option that lets you stare out at the stars, say a prayer, or leave. I would add that if you left, you have the option of going to the armory and prepping your weapons for the coming mission.

This would allow for Shepard to be agnostic, athiest, or religious, without stepping on any toes. If you stare at the stars, you could roleplay that in your own head however you wish, either "communing with the cosmos" or mentally focusing yourself for the coming mission. You also have the option to take a more active approach if your Shepard is athiest, by going to the Armory.

This would give athiests a couple of choices, without locking them into one "type" of athiesm. Someone might take offense that athiests only have the option to check their weapons, or just be able to look at the stars, or whatever.

I think this suits all needs the best, without stepping on any toes. It'd give Shepard a bit more depth to the character, no matter the choice, and it should be enough to satisfy a religious need. It would for me, at least.

Modifié par khevan, 03 octobre 2010 - 07:24 .

[Agamo45]

asaiasai wrote...

The problem in the world today is all of this religious whacko nonsense. One can not do anything or go anywhere with out having some religious nut job accosting you in the parking lot with assinine questions like "have you found Jesus?". I never knew he was missing. There is no "have you seen me" pictures of Jesus on the side of milk cartons. Are we stupid hairless monkeys still convinced that the answer to all of the problems in life is religion.

The world is screwed up enough with all of the divergent religious belief systems floating around, the inane mumbo jumbo of an archaic superstition which motivates every mouth breather to perpetrate random acts of violence because some one chooses to call the fictional man made creation by a different name. Completely and totaly forgetting the basic tenants of faith. All must come to god of thier own accord. The only sins you have to atone for are your own. The most important thing is that the only difference between one religion and another is who collects the vig on Sunday.

We have all this religious strife in the world today, Christo-fascists, Islamo-fascists at each others throats when ALL religions are bupkis, all religions are the control of the masses through guilt and fear. Now some chowder head wants to add this ficticious nonsense into the game and has collected 4 pages of discussion concerning the addition of assinine and inane concepts into the only place where an individual can escape from the totalitarianism that is religious indoctrination. Get a grip people, man created god in the image he strives to attain all in an attempt to earn a buck selling fear to idiots because it is easier to make a living waving a bible, torah, quran than a car/camel fax.

NO TO RELIGION IN ME, NO TO RELIGION IN REAL LIFE, god is dead and lets see to it that is the way it stays, unless of course you live in the middle east or the deep south, then ignorance prevails.

Asai

No the problem in the world is hateful, ignorant atheist ****s like you who are so blinded that they can't see all the good that religion brings to the world.

Modifié par Agamo45, 03 octobre 2010 - 07:32 .

[Zan51]

It brings good and bad in equal measure, you only have to read the papers to see the truth of that, just like political beliefs, and social beliefs. It should be a personal pleasure, not a stick to beat anyone who disagrees with you.



Enough now, let's all agree to differ. I'm sure IF BW include anything about a moment of quiet contemplation before the final mission in ME3, they'll do it right.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Trolls are much less effective when you ignore them.



Anyway, as I said before an actual prayer is probably a bad idea because the act of praying is usually a rather specific thing and doing it in Mass Effect,would require too much focus on one particular system and practice. A better option would be having the option of a few vague religion themed dialogue options in a conversation, maybe if Ashley or Liara or Thane or Legion directly bring the subject up with their Shepard-Commander at some point.

[Vamp-Willow]

khevan wrote...

First, for the record I am what I call an "informal" Christian. I won't go into more detail because I'm not here for a religious debate. But, I draw attention to the fact that I have religious views to give some context to my following statements.

The only way I'd support any sort of religious expression for Shepard him/herself is if it is vague, non-specific, and non-conversational. There are too many religions on Earth today for anything more than a passing nod at some sort of belief by Shepard to not offend someone.

An "obvious" folded hands Christian prayer could offend Muslims, who kneel facing Mecca to pray. A kneeling, praying Shepard could offend Christians who think it could be saying Shepard is a Muslim, etc. A simple bowed head, with closed eyes, for a brief couple of seconds, with no other symbology or anything that could be interpreted the wrong way is the only way, I feel, of doing something like this without it being potentially offensive.

As far as being non-conversational, like I said earlier, there are too many factors, too many different people who play Shepard, for anything more than the line in ME1 to make sense. Anything more than "I've been in alot of foxholes" carries meaning that could unintentionally make people think Shepard is trying to be one religion vs. another. It'd be too hard, in my opinion, to equal or better ME1's treatment of the subject in a conversation.

For all of the reasons above, I'd prefer it if there were an option like what was suggested earlier, a blue box option that lets you stare out at the stars, say a prayer, or leave. I would add that if you left, you have the option of going to the armory and prepping your weapons for the coming mission.

This would allow for Shepard to be agnostic, athiest, or religious, without stepping on any toes. If you stare at the stars, you could roleplay that in your own head however you wish, either "communing with the cosmos" or mentally focusing yourself for the coming mission. You also have the option to take a more active approach if your Shepard is athiest, by going to the Armory.

This would give athiests a couple of choices, without locking them into one "type" of athiesm. Someone might take offense that athiests only have the option to check their weapons, or just be able to look at the stars, or whatever.

I think this suits all needs the best, without stepping on any toes. It'd give Shepard a bit more depth to the character, no matter the choice, and it should be enough to satisfy a religious need. It would for me, at least.

I really like your idea, I think it would give the player a interesting way to develop their Shepard without as you said... stepping on any toes. 

Modifié par Vamp-Willow, 03 octobre 2010 - 09:25 .

[asaiasai]

I am not a hateful ignorant individual, quite the contrary i am intelligent and articulate which is why religion and all the trappings of submission to someone else's intepretation of the word is a concept i have trouble understanding. I insulted no one unless of course your a mindless zombie like follower of some one else's intepretation of religious dogma and myths. I never said i was an atheist, i believe in a higher power, i am a spiritual person who does not believe god can be quantified in any way shape or form, and those who claim to have done so are liars and huxters selling you a product, just like they do with toothpaste, politicians, and automobiles. I do not believe in any of the pre packaged franchised versions of those interpretations avalable on the highly contested and saturated market place today. Other than being alive and daring to speak my mind concerning what an assinine idea it is to add any religious dogma to a video game, the only insult i have offered and one i feel is approiate " Now some chowder head wants to add this ficticious nonsense into the game and has collected 4 pages of discussion concerning the addition of assinine and inane concepts into the only place where an individual can escape from the totalitarianism that is religious indoctrination.".

The issue with religion and religious people is that they are not content to be what they are. No everybody has to believe what they believe and if your someone like me who will say with out hesitation " go away and take your nonsense with you" i am an evil trolling ****. Fair enough, I knew when i made my, regardless of how it is labeled post troll or otherwise, i was going to spark the ire of the sheep.

The mods are going to close this thread soon anyway and as you can see by the hostility of the reponses to my post adding any sort of religious content regardless of the context or superstition based belief systems used will invaribly spark debate concerning which is the true belief system. I submit that they are all incomplete, inconsistent, and incompatible with the modern world. Now if you are one of those types of people who wants to crawl back or in remain firmly entrenched in the dark ages i have no problem with that, so long as you do so with out involving the rest of the planet. The problem is that these people for all thier promises and intentions can not do that, and feel they have some right to coerce thier antiquated morality and belief systems on everyone else. 

We need less religion not more. I mean seriously, someone really cracked me up when they said i did not mention any of the good things religion has done for people. I can not think of any examples that support this statement and as i believe religion to be the most dangerous concept that mankind will have to learn to over come his addiction to it is not my place to support that argument.

If religious people were able to control themselves and learn to live and let live i would be alot less hostile, but as my morality would be unacceptable to most persons of faith i am left with little choice but to resist. Like persons of faith who feel it is thier god given imperative to foist thier morality and belief systems on everybody else around them, i must counter thier corruptive influence where ever i find it. Not in a fight against god but against those who would corrupt the influence for thier own personal gain.


Asai

If i may borrow a quote from Susan B. Anthony

"I am suspicious of people who claim god has told them what he wants them to do, as it most often coincides with thier own desires."

[Flamesz]

I'd be quite sure that after learning of the Reapers and what they've done over the past millions/billion years that if Shepard was religious, it would cripple their faith. I'm an Athiest and if i was religious, then it would definatly cripple mine.

[bjdbwea]

It depends on what and how strongly someone, indeed, believes. In any case, this and other related questions would certainly allow for some interesting writing. The question is whether such topics have a place in a video game, but if the medium is supposed to develop - and especially BioWare always wanted it to - I don't see a reason why a good writer should not bring up this topic, and others, in a sensible way. And in a way of course, that in the end, each player can find and express their own answer.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 03 octobre 2010 - 10:12 .

[Skyblade012]

Yeah, see, Asai, you may not be trolling, but you are definitely flaming, since I displayed a perfectly reasonable point of view, and your immediate reaction is to call me a "chowder head". Perhaps you aren't an ignorant or hateful individual, but when your first response is to devolve to crude name calling and spout manifest untruths, people are liable to think otherwise. Oh, and labelling everyone who disagrees with you "sheep" is also unlikely to make people react favorable to your nice, reasoned discussions.





Anyway, this thread wasn't meant to spark relegious debate, though I suppose I was foolish to fail to realize that it wouldn't. I mean, after everything ME1 did to keep the relegion low-key and ambiguous, look at how many people hate Ashley because of it.



I wrote this to get other people's opinion of the idea, and it seems that, if the responses here are at all indicative of the issue, leaving it out is a good thing. Despite the entire point being to stress choice and individual customization and character development, it seems the thought of including it is enough to set some people off.



I actually feel that they should leave it out. Mass Effect handled the situation perfectly. It was subtle, but there. Actually introduced as part of fleshing out Ashley's character, yet with a natural response that let you build your own Shepard as well. It wasn't overly obtrusive or out of place, and there was no real reason to go back to it. The only real negative about not returning to it is that Shepard still has little to no character development.



While LotSB did give us a bit of a chance to flesh out Shepard's character (with the awesome "How do you feel" dialogue), it is still something sorely lacking in the ME series. Initially, I thought this was a good thing, as I felt that there was little chance that BioWare would capture my feelings about the character in any expansion they did, and nothing would be worse than character development that split Shepard away from my personal take on the character. But, then LotSB turned around and showed that BioWare does still have a heck of a lot of writing talent, and now I'm all in favor of more.



But bringing back the relegious aspect can lead to trouble. Revelation showed me just how badly the writers can handle the topic when they shoehorn it in for no reason and for no benefit to the story or characters.



So, my final opinion: Could they address this in a way that would give every player a chance to explore their character in a subtle and respectful way? I believe so. Should they? Probably not, since it's proven to be more controversial than anything else in the game by far.

[adam_grif]

There are too many variations on religious and spiritual beliefs to satisfy everybody, so it's best to touch on it only very vaguely, if at all. The ME universe is largely secular anyway.

[fongiel24]

I say let sleeping dogs lie and stay away from religion as much as possible. It's too touchy of a subject for too many people and this franchise has already been hit with one controversy already. Unlike Assassin's Creed, the narrative of ME doesn't require that Bioware explore religion so they should just avoid the entire issue.

[epeeist]

"...I insulted no one unless of course your a mindless zombie like follower of some one else's intepretation of religious dogma and myths...."

That gave me a chuckle at oblivious self-contradiction this morning, before I go to church...

I don't think OP's suggestion is a good idea. The Shepard character is the PC, put in too much about religion and people will be annoyed/upset that their own particular views/beliefs aren't accurately reflected. The dialogue choices with Ashley helped from a role-playing point of view, but too much more and it would be annoying/bothersome/offensive - even with Ashley I recall some posts by people "upset" that the Ashley character believed in God because it ruined the character for them or something... (which I thought ridiculous; I don't get offended merely because a particular fictional character might be atheist or a different religion than me, e.g. all aliens in the game!).

If any character is, according to the author/developer/whatever, the holder of a certain set of beliefs, then by all means implement whatever is appropriate to develop that character. I'm happy with religious or atheist or whatever characters if it is part of that character as written and not something "thrown in". But watching the Shepard character pray or something would just be boring (and/or offensive to many, because it wouldn't perfectly match their own beliefs) - what's the point?

Now, that said, I think the Shepard character's reaction to being restored to life is a bit underwhelming (as well as Ashley's, in my playthrough, reaction on Horizon), but what are the game developers supposed to do, include scenes of meditative introspection in the captain's cabin? If it fits one's religious beliefs one can appreciate the name of the Lazarus project and Legion's name on one level, if not it can still be appreciated on another level.

Modifié par epeeist, 03 octobre 2010 - 01:48 .

[Weiser_Cain]

Fits my view just fine, you don't waste time thinking about the second chance at life you've been given.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think if it's kept vague enough, it could work. It's not like in the first game, Shepard was especially specific in telling Ashley that he was of any particular brand of faith.



I think it'd be enough to have somebody ask Shepard if he posses a sense of spirituality of any kind.



And the responses probably don't need to be more detailed than:



- Yes,

- No,

- I'm uncertain about it,

- I don't care either way,

[Weiser_Cain]

I want to be able to punch out whoever asks the question.

[azerSheppard]

If "believing in God" means i can pray to Thor to grant me strenght, and pray the Valkuries tear my corpse appart as i bleed out, i'm in, if it's asking for forgiveness, love and peace, than kill Him with fire. 

Modifié par azerSheppard, 03 octobre 2010 - 06:47 .