127 réponses à ce sujet

[Weiser_Cain]

If I wanted a religious game I'd buy bible adventures.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Jeeze, nobody is asking for a religious game.

[clennon8]

Fwiw, I agree with just about everything asaiasai said. Religion (or more specifically, theism) really is The. Worst. Thing. Ever. It only gets in the way. Anything good that is accomplished by religious people can also be accomplished by atheists with less collateral damage. Ultimately, religion does much more harm than good by fostering intolerance.



That said, let's not forget this is a role-playing game we're talking about here.

[TheGreenLion]

I already posted my thoughts, and as you can see this thread has quite a bit of debate on the subject of the portrayal of Shep being religious.



Every religion has good things that they teach, and they also have bad things. We must take into account however that books and texts can only give you so much insight as they were written by, for lack of a better word, historians recording the beliefs of their people. Also take into account that several civilizations have been destroyed and their histories/beliefs altered or removed by the victors, and even those that survived have had their beliefs/histories *intentionally* re-written how the ruling power or even the recorder themselves, wanted it to be. Some examples, King James' Bible and one glaring example is the story of Beowulf, re-written by a Christian scholar and in place of Norse polytheism has incorporated God into the story which doesn't ring true compared to what we know about them.



So, you can take some things as a truth, but during the course of history that truth has been altered several times. What you can do is decide for your own self what you'd like to take from the old texts as good things to teach/know and also decide what you believe to be bad or wrong. Everyone gets something different out of religion but it's not up to you or anyone to attempt to reason with someone who doesn't believe the same things that your view of things is the "truth" because an old historical text said that it is. Faith will always be something that individuals discover on their own. My grandparents are near-fanatically Mormon and boy do they try to preach, but like water on a duck's back...it doesn't stick. I just happen to think that there is no one proper "truth" seeing as so many cultures have their own unique flavor on that subject. I'd like to think that I can pick and choose the good things out of each one, and leave behind things I consider bad or contradictory to how I'd like to live.



Just be tolerant that someone believes differently and don't get in their face and tell them they are wrong because your book is better than their's. In Shep's case, he/she doesn't need to portray faith in order for Shep to be more believably human. Just let him/her be the hero and leave faith to your own mind, because technically you ARE Shep's mind.



Anywho, there's another fun wall of text for you to read. Stay frosty out there.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Anything bad that can be accomplished by religion can also be accomplished by atheists. Religion isn't good or bad, it just is. People are what make the difference.

[Skyblade012]

clennon8 wrote...

Ultimately, religion does much more harm than good by fostering intolerance.

Which is rather ironic, since most of the people posting in favor of a mention of relegion have discussed the need to keep it vague and acceptable to multiple various viewpoints as possible, while the most intolerant view, that any mention of relegion in the game, even if optional and allowing for alternative viewpoints, has come from an athiest.  Yay, we're intolerant!



People have been posting threads for a while saying that any development to Shepard's character is a good thing.  Yet this idea, which is an expansion of the character development which has already occured, is met with such hostility.

Modifié par Skyblade012, 03 octobre 2010 - 07:15 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

clennon8 wrote...

Fwiw, I agree with just about everything asaiasai said. Religion (or more specifically, theism) really is The. Worst. Thing. Ever. It only gets in the way. Anything good that is accomplished by religious people can also be accomplished by atheists with less collateral damage. Ultimately, religion does much more harm than good by fostering intolerance.

That said, let's not forget this is a role-playing game we're talking about here.

More quasi-intellectual nonsense from people without any grasp of history. I have never met an atheist I liked and I guarantee you that the world would be just as ****ty if everybody was like yourself. You think theism is the worst thing ever? I say atheism is. Most people like you I have encountered have had more issues than a magazine rack.

Anybody who had an issue with Ash being religious in the first game or thought that was too controversial needs to be slapped in the back of the head. My favorite is when the people complaining about this go on to demand gay Shepard. Because controversial subjects are only good when it fits their personal agenda.

Modifié par ReconTeam, 03 octobre 2010 - 07:16 .

[clennon8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Anything bad that can be accomplished by religion can also be accomplished by atheists. Religion isn't good or bad, it just is. People are what make the difference.

Religion is the ultimate enabler for bad behavior.  When people do bad things with the belief that their Creator will reward them with a special place in heaven, religion had a large part to do with that.

[clennon8]

Just to be clear, I was not offended in the slightest by Ashley's discussion of God and foxholes in ME1. I even romanced her with one of my Sheps



As I mentioned at the end of my first post, "Let's not forget this is a role-playing game we're talking about here."

[Jedi Master of Orion]

People will do that anyway, whether they have an "enabler" or not. It's just who we are. Religion is fairly inherent in the human condition anyway, just like all the other good and bad things that our species does.

[Saibh]

clennon8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Anything bad that can be accomplished by religion can also be accomplished by atheists. Religion isn't good or bad, it just is. People are what make the difference.

Religion is the ultimate enabler for bad behavior.  When people do bad things with the belief that their Creator will reward them with a special place in heaven, religion had a large part to do with that.

I really got tell you, I'm not religious, but as far as bad people doing bad things, they will find any excuse. If you actually try to excuse the good things religions do by saying atheists can do them too, then don't try to backtrack and say that the bad things aren't equally possible by religious and non-religious alike.

Religion isn't the ultimate enabler, power is. And power can be achieved through any number of means. The end of religion isn't the end of suffering.

But, as I've already said, I'm in favor of religion not being mentioned in ME3, unless it's really vague and really simple.

[Inquisitor Recon]

clennon8 wrote...
Religion is the ultimate enabler for bad behavior.  When people do bad things with the belief that their Creator will reward them with a special place in heaven, religion had a large part to do with that.

Because Stalin, Mao, and Kim Jong-il, and countless other notable atheists are shining examples of morality and progress. We would be far better of if everybody was a theist with a set of common beliefs than an athiest like you think.

[Saibh]

ReconTeam wrote...

clennon8 wrote...
Religion is the ultimate enabler for bad behavior.  When people do bad things with the belief that their Creator will reward them with a special place in heaven, religion had a large part to do with that.

Because Stalin, Mao, and Kim Jong-il, and countless other notable atheists are shining examples of morality and progress. We would be far better of if everybody was a theist with a set of common beliefs than an athiest like you think.

You know, you're not acting any better. Saying that atheism is the worst thing in the world isn't going to convince anyone that religion is tolerant and magnanimous.

[clennon8]

Well, I'm just going to let it go, since this isn't really the place for it. I'll just end by saying that maybe you all should read some good books on the topic if it's something you care about. Most of your arguments are pretty trite and have been eloquently refuted by people much more intelligent than I.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

ReconTeam wrote...

clennon8 wrote...
Religion is the ultimate enabler for bad behavior.  When people do bad things with the belief that their Creator will reward them with a special place in heaven, religion had a large part to do with that.

Because Stalin, Mao, and Kim Jong-il, and countless other notable atheists are shining examples of morality and progress. We would be far better of if everybody was a theist with a set of common beliefs than an athiest like you think.

Atheism isn't inherently bad for the world either. I don't know exactly what your experiences with the atheists you've met are, but you're still making overly broad generalizations.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 03 octobre 2010 - 07:23 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
Atheism isn't inherently bad for
the world either. I don't know exactly what your experiences with the
atheists you've met are, but you're still making overly broad
generalizations.

In my opinion it is, and most atheists I have met behaved exactly like above. Hypocrites who go on and on about the ills of religion while preaching their own dogma. I may be strongly opinioned myself, but at least I don't deny that and try to actively convert people, on an internet forum no less.

[azerSheppard]

ReconTeam wrote...

clennon8 wrote...
Religion is the ultimate enabler for bad behavior.  When people do bad things with the belief that their Creator will reward them with a special place in heaven, religion had a large part to do with that.

Because Stalin, Mao, and Kim Jong-il, and countless other notable atheists are shining examples of morality and progress. We would be far better of if everybody was a theist with a set of common beliefs than an athiest like you think.

Sure lets use power hungry ****s as our base, what about the religious ones? I really don't care enough to mention them, just google "religious madman"<_<

[Saibh]

ReconTeam wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
Atheism isn't inherently bad for
the world either. I don't know exactly what your experiences with the
atheists you've met are, but you're still making overly broad
generalizations.

In my opinion it is, and most atheists I have met behaved exactly like above. Hypocrites who go on and on about the ills of religion while preaching their own dogma. I may be strongly opinioned myself, but at least I don't deny that and try to actively convert people, on an internet forum no less.

No, instead you make wide and sweeping generalizations about people you've never met. The thing is, I rarely meet atheists or theists in a good light because most of the time, they aren't quick to tell me what they believe in unless they want to stuff it down my throat and convince me that they're right and everyone else is wrong.

But those people are few and far in between, and I don't judge the whole based on loud jerks who misrepresent their beliefs.

Modifié par Saibh, 03 octobre 2010 - 07:53 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

azerSheppard wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

clennon8 wrote...
Religion is the ultimate enabler for bad behavior.  When people do bad things with the belief that their Creator will reward them with a special place in heaven, religion had a large part to do with that.

Because Stalin, Mao, and Kim Jong-il, and countless other notable atheists are shining examples of morality and progress. We would be far better of if everybody was a theist with a set of common beliefs than an athiest like you think.

Sure lets use power hungry ****s as our base, what about the religious ones? I really don't care enough to mention them, just google "religious madman"<_<

This sort of thing is kind of exactly my point. History is full of power hungry madmen. Whether they have a particualr relgion or not is frankly almost always irrelvant to the fact that they are power hungry.

To be perfectly honest, the idea of going on about the historical evils or religion or atheism is like going on the historical evils of black people, or perhaps white people, or perhaps asian people.

Can you imagine how many countless years of war and opression have been commited by white people or black people or asian people?

You can pick almost any major historical sub-group of humanity like that from history and there will probably be an enormous amount of violence connected with them.

I've known many many issufferably annoyined atheists. I've also known of many insufferably annoying relgious people of many stripes. I've also known people of all those groups that aren't.

People can and often do become power hungry and violent. And sometimes they aren't. That is juts how we are. It's not because we are black or white or christian or muslim or atheist or gay or straight or vegetarian or whatever group that somebody wants to try to associate with problems in the world. That's just how humans are.

[clennon8]

ReconTeam wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
Atheism isn't inherently bad for
the world either. I don't know exactly what your experiences with the
atheists you've met are, but you're still making overly broad
generalizations.

In my opinion it is, and most atheists I have met behaved exactly like above. Hypocrites who go on and on about the ills of religion while preaching their own dogma. I may be strongly opinioned myself, but at least I don't deny that and try to actively convert people, on an internet forum no less.

And what I've noticed is that if you're an atheist, you basically aren't allowed to talk about it publicly.

Atheism isn't dogma, and if you're calling what I said "preaching," then you're using a pretty loose definition.

I never once said (or tried to imply) that all atheists are wonderful people, or that if we all became atheists then all the problems of the world would be solved.  I do think we would be a lot better off, though.

Lastly, I don't hate Ashley Williams.  I don't hate religious people.  I don't hate you.  I used to hate the Los Angeles Lakers, but I gave it up.

Modifié par clennon8, 03 octobre 2010 - 10:07 .

[bjdbwea]

clennon8 wrote...

And what I've noticed is that you if you're an atheist, you basically aren't allowed to talk about it publicly.

What? It's certainly different in other countries, but in the free West, I constantly see people in the media talking about it. I don't really understand what's the matter. All that was asked is for the topic to be brought up at some point in ME 3, or perhaps the alleged Ashley DLC, so that each player can decide, probably based on their own beliefs, what their Shepard thinks about the matter, in effect giving their Shepard a bit more personality.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 03 octobre 2010 - 08:19 .

[Skyblade012]

ANYWAY, if we could get back to the topic, please. As much fun as this discussion is, the purpose of the thread is to get people's opinions on the thought of bringing Shepard's personal beliefs back into the game.



So many decisions were carried over to ME2, but not this one. Bit part characters from two years ago pop up on the other side of the galaxy in a way that we just have to meet them, but this decision, which is one of the few that has a personal implications for Shepard is ignored. I want more development for Shepard, and, while this is not the only way to get it, ignoring every personal choice we make is not the way to go about doing it.

[ElectronicFerret]

Investigating the more personal side of Shepard is cool.



That said, I think investigating this particular line is opening up a huge can of worms, except the worms are actually thresher maws and are going to destroy your entire unit except for you and even then you're barely going to make it out alive and SCARRED FOREVAR.

[fongiel24]

clennon8 wrote...

I used to hate the Los Angeles Lakers, but I gave it up.

:o:o BLASPHEMER!!! Somebody gather firewood while I run out to get some matches!

Modifié par fongiel24, 03 octobre 2010 - 09:02 .

[SaintRaccoon]

I would honestly be quite disappointed if Bioware actually brought in elements from Real existing Religions or hints at them. Sure Fake Alien religions stuffs is harmless as it fit the Science-Fiction canvas. But A praying Shepard, Real Religious Symbols, Choices that state Shepard's Beliefs? It just pushing extremely sensitives and personal elements into a Fictive world. Like Everything else in the common Public domain: Keep it Secular. Keep your Beliefs and Unbeliefs on the coat Hanger before you come in. Laicity and Secularism.