133 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I had a longer post originally, but it was rambling and incoherent, so I'll just say this: loyalty and recruitment missions in ME2 should not have been optional, and neither squad- nor crewmates should have been able to die. The fact that all of this is optional makes a coherent plot that works from all possible outcomes much harder to design for ME3 without making a bunch of new characters; a process that would be unnecessary if the old ones were available.

[Liec]

And then replace all dialogue trees with fixed cutscenes, that'll be easier to design.

[DarthCaine]

Yes and they should remove the whole character creation process

[FlyinElk212]

Agree with your first point, disagree with your second point.

I believe that loyalty's and recruitment missions should've been mandatory, but for that to happen, the missions needed to have a TON more relevance to the main plot of "stop the collectors". In other words, the plots within the recruitments and loyalties needed to better include the main enemies, the Collectors.

Your second point I completely disagree with: squad & crewmates possibly dying is the main point of Mass Effect 2. Without it, you lose the game's initial appeal. If anything, it should've been impossible for some squadmates to NOT die. Going through a suicide mission unscathed is ridiculous.

[Xilizhra]

Then the game should have had a different premise to begin with; having everyone maybe or even definitely die would be great for ME3, but for a game set in the middle of the trilogy... I just don't feel it flows well. I do agree that the loyalty and recruitment missions should have been much more closely tied to the main plot, however, with the exception of the geth-based ones; those can easily stand on their own.

[CheeseEnchilada]

The old characters are still available. If you lost members on the suicide mission, you should have to miss out on content. Simple.
I still say people are freaking out too much about squadmates in ME3. Then again, our roles as fans are to look too deeply into things

[FlyinElk212]

CheeseEnchilada wrote...

The old characters are still available. If you lost members on the suicide mission, you should have to miss out on content. Simple.
I still say people are freaking out too much about squadmates in ME3. Then again, our roles as fans are to look too deeply into things

Exactly, my cheesy mexican dish friend.

I've been preaching for a while that dead squadmates =/= infinite variables, but rather dead squadmates = missed out content and less squad options. There's a reason why there's gotta be at least 2 squaddies (the minimum groundteam requirement) alive in ME2 for your Shepard to live.

[Xilizhra]

CheeseEnchilada wrote...

The old characters are still available. If you lost members on the suicide mission, you should have to miss out on content. Simple.
I still say people are freaking out too much about squadmates in ME3. Then again, our roles as fans are to look too deeply into things

What would be done about people who start an entirely new ME3 game without importing?

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

CheeseEnchilada wrote...

The old characters are still available. If you lost members on the suicide mission, you should have to miss out on content. Simple.
I still say people are freaking out too much about squadmates in ME3. Then again, our roles as fans are to look too deeply into things

What would be done about people who start an entirely new ME3 game without importing?

I would imagine that ME3 default Shepard = Miranda, Jacob,  maybe also Garrus and Tali.

[CheeseEnchilada]

Xilizhra wrote...

CheeseEnchilada wrote...

The old characters are still available. If you lost members on the suicide mission, you should have to miss out on content. Simple.
I still say people are freaking out too much about squadmates in ME3. Then again, our roles as fans are to look too deeply into things

What would be done about people who start an entirely new ME3 game without importing?

Then Bioware will pick and choose who survives. That, or give the new players everyone and say that no one died in the 'suicide' mission. I don't see them going for a brand-new squad, especially just for those who start ME3 first. Say what you want about EA and how they only want to appeal to the new players, ect, but a new squad makes no sense. It's the last installment!

Edit: Ninja'd by LizardViking
As for how they'll pick and choose who survives, who knows? I bet Miranda, Jacob, Tali and Garrus will live. Other than that, I have no idea, but since I'm importing, it doesn't matter as much to me

Modifié par CheeseEnchilada, 03 octobre 2010 - 04:43 .

[AlexMBrennan]

I disagree - too many things are mandatory. I really, really don't want to recruit Jack or Grunt.

And because of the timer for the boarding mission Shepard is forced to either a) deal with everybody's personal issues or doing missions of no importance whatsoever (risking Shepard's life to recover some data from a crashed ship, taking out every mercenary base in the Traverse)

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

I disagree - too many things are mandatory. I really, really don't want to recruit Jack or Grunt.
And because of the timer for the boarding mission Shepard is forced to either a) deal with everybody's personal issues or doing missions of no importance whatsoever (risking Shepard's life to recover some data from a crashed ship, taking out every mercenary base in the Traverse)

You just think the wrong characters are mandatory.

But ultimativly. I'm REALLY curious on how Bioware is gonna handle ME3. For being the second part of a trilogy, ME2 does seem to have a really high amount of varibles.

Perhaps Bioware should have just made a completely diffrent ME2 in the first place?

[Saibh]

Lizardviking wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

CheeseEnchilada wrote...

The old characters are still available. If you lost members on the suicide mission, you should have to miss out on content. Simple.
I still say people are freaking out too much about squadmates in ME3. Then again, our roles as fans are to look too deeply into things

What would be done about people who start an entirely new ME3 game without importing?

I would imagine that ME3 default Shepard = Miranda, Jacob,  maybe also Garrus and Tali.

To me, preferably, Shepard recruited everyone, but not everyone survived, and some of the ones that did leave you anyway. I have a feeling Miranda definitely made it, considering her immortality in most of the SM. Jacob, probably. 

Non-import: Miranda and Jacob seem the most obvious survivors. I can see Garrus making it, but not Tali, since she has a pretty high death rate, but preferably both of them made it through. I feel Mordin dies, and ME3 starts out with Liara telling you where to find the most amazing scientist in the galaxy, regardless of his survival or not. I see Grunt surviving as well.

Import (who leaves): I can see Samara leaving to be a justicar, Zaeed off to do mercenary things/revenge, and Kasumi leaving. Those seem the obvious ones. I think perhaps all six of the LI stay with you, romanced or not. I see no reason for Grunt to go anywhere. Legion may or may not leave, depending on the status of the geth in ME3. Mordin seems likely to stay, as well.

Of the LIs you don't romance, I feel Jacob, Miranda, Tali, and Garrus will definitely stay. Thane is dying, and I don't see him going anywhere until he gets critical. Jack may leave, but it seems weird that five romances stay, and one leaves, but she seems the most likely.

Also, the devs have went on record saying that since they don't need to worry about continuity for the third game, they can make it far more detailed and variable. Which I'm very excited for. I'm perfectly willing to wait if it means getting the ultimate finale.

[theBioticGod]

That is kind of the point of an RPG where you're supposed to have a lot of CHOICES.

[Elyvern]

And then there will be someone who will come along and argue that Samara will stay, Jack will stay and this thread will end up like all countless others about which squadmates will survive to see ME3.

On the offhand, I would say Miranda and/or Jacob will survive because we still need to tie up loose ends with Cerberus, and both of them would provide the most convenient link for new players to ME3 who will have no idea what Cerberus or who TIM is. I can't imagine Bioware pre-empting this particular issue by introducing a DLC that will sever ties with Cerberus considering that giving the collector base to TIM was such a big decision that it begs being explored in ME3. It would also not make sense for Miranda to resign from Cerberus (if you are paragon) if the consequence of that decision isn't intended to be resolved in ME3.

Modifié par Elyvern, 03 octobre 2010 - 05:05 .

[Flamewielder]

ME2 is the way it is for better or worse. One may accurately comment that ME2 feels more like a good series if ME-themed short stories than the second novel in a trilogy. ME2 is the first CRPG (to my knowledge) that offered the possibility of "permanent" main character death and squaddie death based on player decisions.

To have done so differently would have meant ME2 would be an entirely different game. Perhaps that's what some players want. I'm rather satisfied with the product, even if I felt the story should have been more focused.

The topic of ME2 squaddies potentially return in ME3 has been discussed ad nauseam on other threads, with the concensus being ME3 will be driven by a new set of squaddies: new specialists + VS + (possibly)Liara. ME2 squaddies can be brought back as optional, single-mission squaddies (if they survived) with little complication. Another possibility is giving game-import players the possibility of choosing a single ME2 squaddie among the available (surviving) characters to keep conversation trees simple while allowing the ME2 squaddie to fully interact with the others.

You could also bring them all back with very limited dialogue, which would be more an insult to the characters...

Modifié par Flamewielder, 03 octobre 2010 - 05:39 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Saibh wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

CheeseEnchilada wrote...

The old characters are still available. If you lost members on the suicide mission, you should have to miss out on content. Simple.
I still say people are freaking out too much about squadmates in ME3. Then again, our roles as fans are to look too deeply into things

What would be done about people who start an entirely new ME3 game without importing?

I would imagine that ME3 default Shepard = Miranda, Jacob,  maybe also Garrus and Tali.

To me, preferably, Shepard recruited everyone, but not everyone survived, and some of the ones that did leave you anyway. I have a feeling Miranda definitely made it, considering her immortality in most of the SM. Jacob, probably. 

Non-import: Miranda and Jacob seem the most obvious survivors. I can see Garrus making it, but not Tali, since she has a pretty high death rate, but preferably both of them made it through. I feel Mordin dies, and ME3 starts out with Liara telling you where to find the most amazing scientist in the galaxy, regardless of his survival or not. I see Grunt surviving as well.

Import (who leaves): I can see Samara leaving to be a justicar, Zaeed off to do mercenary things/revenge, and Kasumi leaving. Those seem the obvious ones. I think perhaps all six of the LI stay with you, romanced or not. I see no reason for Grunt to go anywhere. Legion may or may not leave, depending on the status of the geth in ME3. Mordin seems likely to stay, as well.

Of the LIs you don't romance, I feel Jacob, Miranda, Tali, and Garrus will definitely stay. Thane is dying, and I don't see him going anywhere until he gets critical. Jack may leave, but it seems weird that five romances stay, and one leaves, but she seems the most likely.

Also, the devs have went on record saying that since they don't need to worry about continuity for the third game, they can make it far more detailed and variable. Which I'm very excited for. I'm perfectly willing to wait if it means getting the ultimate finale.

Remember ME2 default? Everyone that could die, did die.

I have a feeling that the ME3 default Shepard only recruited the 8 mandatory squadmates to start the suicide mission, didn't do any loyalty missions and only Miranda, Jacob plus 2 extra squadmates survived.

[Frybread76]

Lizardviking wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

CheeseEnchilada wrote...

The old characters are still available. If you lost members on the suicide mission, you should have to miss out on content. Simple.
I still say people are freaking out too much about squadmates in ME3. Then again, our roles as fans are to look too deeply into things

What would be done about people who start an entirely new ME3 game without importing?

I would imagine that ME3 default Shepard = Miranda, Jacob,  maybe also Garrus and Tali.

To me, preferably, Shepard recruited everyone, but not everyone survived, and some of the ones that did leave you anyway. I have a feeling Miranda definitely made it, considering her immortality in most of the SM. Jacob, probably. 

Non-import: Miranda and Jacob seem the most obvious survivors. I can see Garrus making it, but not Tali, since she has a pretty high death rate, but preferably both of them made it through. I feel Mordin dies, and ME3 starts out with Liara telling you where to find the most amazing scientist in the galaxy, regardless of his survival or not. I see Grunt surviving as well.

Import (who leaves): I can see Samara leaving to be a justicar, Zaeed off to do mercenary things/revenge, and Kasumi leaving. Those seem the obvious ones. I think perhaps all six of the LI stay with you, romanced or not. I see no reason for Grunt to go anywhere. Legion may or may not leave, depending on the status of the geth in ME3. Mordin seems likely to stay, as well.

Of the LIs you don't romance, I feel Jacob, Miranda, Tali, and Garrus will definitely stay. Thane is dying, and I don't see him going anywhere until he gets critical. Jack may leave, but it seems weird that five romances stay, and one leaves, but she seems the most likely.

Also, the devs have went on record saying that since they don't need to worry about continuity for the third game, they can make it far more detailed and variable. Which I'm very excited for. I'm perfectly willing to wait if it means getting the ultimate finale.

Remember ME2 default? Everyone that could die, did die.

I have a feeling that the ME3 default Shepard only recruited the 8 mandatory squadmates to start the suicide mission, didn't do any loyalty missions and only Miranda, Jacob plus 2 extra squadmates survived.

To avoid fan revolt, those two will be Garrus and Tali.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Frybread76 wrote...

To avoid fan revolt, those two will be Garrus and Tali.

I doubt the hardcore fans will care that much since it will be the default Shepard.

But Garrus and Tali are good choices since they are "old times" characters that could be used as indirect marketing.

Wanna know what Shepard did with Tali and Garrus? BUY THE ENTIRE TRILOGY AND GIVE US ALL YOUR MONEY!

[kaimanaMM]

Frybread76 wrote...

To avoid fan revolt, those two will be Garrus and Tali. Legion and Grunt.

Frybread76 wrote...

To avoid fan revolt, those two will be Garrus and Tali. Mordin and Thane.

Frybread76 wrote...

To avoid fan revolt, those two will be Garrus and Tali. Jack and Samara.

Frybread76 wrote...

To avoid fan revolt, those two will be Garrus and Tali. Grunt and Kasumi.

See, I can do it too!

[Fiery Phoenix]

Smuddy would fit just fine in here.

[smudboy]

Xilizhra wrote...

I had a longer post originally, but it was rambling and incoherent, so I'll just say this: loyalty and recruitment missions in ME2 should not have been optional, and neither squad- nor crewmates should have been able to die. The fact that all of this is optional makes a coherent plot that works from all possible outcomes much harder to design for ME3 without making a bunch of new characters; a process that would be unnecessary if the old ones were available.

A coherent plot has nothing to do with possible crew death.  Who says squadmates have anything to do with ME3?

ME3 will have new squadmates and new characters.  Bioware can make and retcon anything they want.  Of course I'd laugh and point out their horrible craftsmanship...

[Saibh]

Lizardviking wrote...



Remember ME2 default? Everyone that could die, did die.

I have a feeling that the ME3 default Shepard only recruited the 8 mandatory squadmates to start the suicide mission, didn't do any loyalty missions and only Miranda, Jacob plus 2 extra squadmates survived.

I didn't consider it like that--I assumed that you chose the neutral path in every option (actually, I'm not sure about the Rachni queen one), and did no side-quests. You didn't max out Charm or Intimidate, so there was nothing you could do to save Wrex. The neutral option was taken to destroy the Council to save the galaxy. You did recruit Garrus and Wrex, though, IIRC.

I don't think ME2 allows Wrex to live because you need to make an effort to do so. You had to be Persuasive/Intimidating or you needed to help with his family's armor.

Because of that I'm going to assume no loyalty missions get filled, you didn't upgrade your ship, and perhaps ME3 obeys the algorithim of squad deaths. If that's the case, I'm going to assume Shepard made the best possible choices for your specialists, but they weren't loyal.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Saibh wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...



Remember ME2 default? Everyone that could die, did die.

I have a feeling that the ME3 default Shepard only recruited the 8 mandatory squadmates to start the suicide mission, didn't do any loyalty missions and only Miranda, Jacob plus 2 extra squadmates survived.

I didn't consider it like that--I assumed that you chose the neutral path in every option (actually, I'm not sure about the Rachni queen one), and did no side-quests. You didn't max out Charm or Intimidate, so there was nothing you could do to save Wrex. The neutral option was taken to destroy the Council to save the galaxy. You did recruit Garrus and Wrex, though, IIRC.

I don't think ME2 allows Wrex to live because you need to make an effort to do so. You had to be Persuasive/Intimidating or you needed to help with his family's armor.

Because of that I'm going to assume no loyalty missions get filled, you didn't upgrade your ship, and perhaps ME3 obeys the algorithim of squad deaths. If that's the case, I'm going to assume Shepard made the best possible choices for your specialists, but they weren't loyal.

It is like that. If default was just taking the middle option. The Rachni queen would have been released (and perhaps Shiala spared), but they aren't. The default Shepard kills all possible character because that will mean less cameos and less refernce to the previous games, which is what the default Shepard is all about, giving new players the most enjoyable experience by making it as little confusing as possible.

[Saibh]

Lizardviking wrote...

It is like that. If default was just taking the middle option. The Rachni queen would have been released (and perhaps Shiala spared), but they aren't. The default Shepard kills all possible character because that will mean less cameos and less refernce to the previous games, which is what the default Shepard is all about, giving new players the most enjoyable experience by making it as little confusing as possible.

Are we sure it's that Shiala and the Rachni queen died, and it's not that in a default playthrough the game just doesn't make any random cameo appearances that confuse you? I almost always play an imported save file, so I'm not sure. I mean, do we get a reference about killing them, or is the flagged raised if you look into the save game file?

This is what happens if no one extra is recruited (including Legion) and no loyalty missions are done, according to the algorithim of death. Skip ahead to the read text if you don't want to read all of this. I'm just showing my work.

Jack dies (no Heavy Ship Armor).

Tali dies (no Multicore Shielding).

Garrus dies (no Thanix Cannon).

Miranda, Jacob, Grunt and Mordin are left.

Tech specialist: Jacob and Mordin are the only options now. Either can die, here.

First fire team leader: Miranda. As no one is loyal, the tech specialist will always die.

Only Grunt and Miranda are guaranteed to be here, at this point. Either Jacob or Mordin is, as well.

Here's where it gets tricky:

Biotic Specialist: Either Miranda or Jacob, who may be dead. Grunt or Mordin can be taken with you.

Miranda (, Grunt and Shepard. Grunt dies. Mordin (F) is alone, he survives.
Miranda (, Mordin and Shepard. Mordin dies. Grunt (F) survives.
Miranda (, Jacob and Shepard. Jacob dies. Grunt (F) survives.
Jacob (, Miranda and Shepard. Miranda is an immortal goddess of death, evidently, and will always survive. Grunt (F) survives.
Jacob (, Grunt and Shepard. Grunt dies. Miranda (F) survives.

The best possible route here is that Mordin was chosen as the tech specialist, dies, and Jacob is your biotic, and Miranda is chosen to go with you. In this situation, everyone makes it out alive.

Now, I'm not sure if the escort will be done. It seems prudent to keep part of your crew alive (and I'm pretty sure part of the crew dies in an ME3 import). However, whoever is sent will always die.

Miranda, Grunt, and Jacob are all possibly available. If not, only Miranda and Grunt/Jacob/Mordin are still alive.

I could keep going through the permutations, but the truth of the matter is, there aren't enough people left. At this point, only one person is holding the line and the crew dies, or someone is escort, dies, the crew partially survives. Either one person goes with you or two. No one makes it back.

tl;dr version:

In any given situation, the person who doesn't go with you to the final boss dies, either as Escort, or Holding the Line. There are only two people alive at this point; in one situation, three. Because they are not loyal, whoever goes with you will die and there is no one left to get Shepard because no one is loyal. Even if Legion was recruited, I don't think there are enough people to survive anyway.

Shepard dies.

So, according to this, either loyalty missions must be done, or Shepard must recruit more people. If anyone feels that I missed something, please tell me. If the algorithim is not obeyed, anything is possible.

EDIT: Actually, I have to correct myself here; I did find a permutation that allowed for Shepard to live provided no escort is made, using the assume SMSR tool. I also didn't realize that you must have eight squad members, so that jumps up the amount of variables on who is recruited and why, since it means you have to recruit one of the post-Horizon dossiers.

Modifié par Saibh, 04 octobre 2010 - 01:09 .