133 réponses à ce sujet

[smudboy]

Mesina2 wrote...

Since when Bioware's main character changes or has personality?

I don't know.  I just know how to do it right.

It's still a plot.

Yet you don't know what it is, and every chance it gets it defeats itself, so it may as well not even bother.

By forcing me to go on Horizon and Derelic Ship. While for coolecting people only those pre-Horizon so I can continue with game.

And how do you know you have to go there, and collect those people?

Collectors attack at random and only reason why you stop them on Horizon is because TIM set it up. Blowing up Collectors( or use EMP one them) is best sollution. I mean, Shepard doesn't have army while Citadel can't get it self involved in Terminus System.

So?  There is no information given toward the plot, so there's really no point in having one if we can't even decipher what the hell we're even trying to do.

No I don't.
Please enlighten me.

Oh, I guess you didn't watch my videos.

[scotchtape622]

http://dictionary.re...com/browse/plot
Also called storyline. the plan, scheme, or main story of a literary or dramatic work, as a play, novel, or short story.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/plot
The pattern of events or main story in a narrative or drama.

http://www.merriam-w...dictionary/plot
the plan or main story

http://encarta.msn.c...nary_/plot.html
the story or sequence of events in something such as a novel, play, or movie

Plot is a synonym to storyline. The "definition" smud uses for the word plot is wrong.

Modifié par scotchtape622, 04 octobre 2010 - 12:35 .

[CroGamer002]

smudboy wrote...

Oh, I guess you didn't watch my videos.

I did.
Long time ago.
And I'm still trying to forget all of it.

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...

http://dictionary.re...com/browse/plot
Also called storyline. the plan, scheme, or main story of a literary or dramatic work, as a play, novel, or short story.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/plot
The pattern of events or main story in a narrative or drama.

http://www.merriam-w...dictionary/plot
the plan or main story

http://encarta.msn.c...nary_/plot.html
the story or sequence of events in something such as a novel, play, or movie

Plot is a synonym to storyline. The "definition" smud uses for the word plot is wrong.

Yeah, that's the crude lexicon.

Here's a better one.  Might clarify some other terms up, too:
http://blog.nathanbr...-have-plot.html

[scotchtape622]

First of all, this guy's opinion on the word "plot" means nothing, I could write a blog and say that the word "pencil" is a computer input device, and nobody could stop me.



Secondly, he says:

So basically, plot is a premise plus a major complication that tests the protagonist. It's what opens the door plus what's keeping the door from being closed.



Both of those things are in ME2, the premise being "Recruiting 12 of the deadliest scientists, mercenaries, and soldiers in the galaxy to take down the Collectors." The major complication (and you can argue if this is well implemented, but that isn't the point here) one of two things, Shepard dying, or being forced to work with Cerberus (of course, those two are two sides of the same coin).

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...

First of all, this guy's opinion on the word "plot" means nothing, I could write a blog and say that the word "pencil" is a computer input device, and nobody could stop me.

It's true, the definition is subjective.  I've found this matches well once you start writing, take some creative writing classes, read some novels, etc.

But it is definitely more than simply a bunch of events that happen in unison.

Secondly, he says:
So basically, plot is a premise plus a major complication that tests the protagonist. It's what opens the door plus what's keeping the door from being closed.

That's a good way of putting it.

For example, I personally enjoy Forster's definition.  It implies a sense of cause to the events: what holds the events together, and gives them that meaning.

Both of those things are in ME2, the premise being "Recruiting 12 of the deadliest scientists, mercenaries, and soldiers in the galaxy to take down the Collectors." The major complication (and you can argue if this is well implemented, but that isn't the point here) one of two things, Shepard dying, or being forced to work with Cerberus (of course, those two are two sides of the same coin).

Sure, we can say the premise is "A military leader is stopping aliens from taking human colonies out in space."  The theme would be "helping new recruits with their daddy issues", because that's what the story is about.  But where is the Suicide Mission?  Where do we get the details of it?  If that's the point of the plot, but we learn nothing of it, or the fact that that's what we're going to do, then the plot, if it's there at all, is meaningless.  If we're now going from point A, suddenly to point C, we need to know what C is all about.  It needs to coincide with the theme, and why we're even going along this path. Thus the why -- the plot -- is challenged: what the hell is going on?  At that point, whenever that registers with you (probably around the time after we go on the Disabled Cruiser, although it could happen right after Horizon) is when we begin to question the entire story, and why (the cause, the plot) it's going along this path.

Compare that to LOTSB, where Liara wants to save Feron out of gratefulness.  Now there are problems with that, for example, it could've been to save Feron out of gratefulness, and to kill the Shadow Broker out of revenge, but the revenge gets thrown out the door.  But the plot is clear: we know what the goal is and why, and the story sticks to it.

[scotchtape622]

I understand what you are saying, but that makes that one part of the plot weak, not the entire plot. It also doesn't remove the entire plot.



Secondly, the characters do have some idea of what they are going to be facing, after EDI scanned the Disabled Cruiser, they use logic to figure out that they won't be attacking a planet, but instead some kind of space station.



Thirdly, I think that the plot could have been improved in a much more simple manner. Instead of TIM and Shep sending in probes to check out the base in the beginning/middle, it should happen if Shepard decides that his team isn't ready for the Collectors after they capture the crew. Basically, it becomes a choice of "going in blind" or "going in with intel." It would be a great option because these games are all about choice, and choosing to scout out the Collectors would essentially doom your crew. This would also make more sense because of my second point, because the team does have some idea of what they'll face.

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...

I understand what you are saying, but that makes that one part of the plot weak, not the entire plot. It also doesn't remove the entire plot.

In the previous case we're talking about the idea of the plot, the premise, and what keeps the "door open."  As the story is told, the plot (stopping the bad guys), and events, pretty much kill the "why" through poor storytelling (plot holes, lack of exposition, etc.)  For example, we learn we have to go through the Omega-4 relay.  Okay.  So why don't we probe it?  Get some data on it?  Do some recon?  Hell, even the Shadow Broker did this, and magically got non-IFF probes recovered (even if they were destroyed.)

We don't understand what's going on, or why we're getting people, IF the plot is to stop the bad guys; and we've been getting people all this time.  Now this is easily fixed, by telling the audience, or by alluding to alternate paths the plot could've taken, or why we're getting such and such a person for a believed outcome, as to why this is the path that it should be on.  But even with that, it'd still feel contrived, because TIM would just be giving his personal idea on why Jack or why Tali, and then we magically have an infiltration mission on a space station.

Secondly, the characters do have some idea of what they are going to be facing, after EDI scanned the Disabled Cruiser, they use logic to figure out that they won't be attacking a planet, but instead some kind of space station.

Which would've been good at the start of the journey where they plan for that, but not half way through.  It's a deduction: there could be anything there, like a series of bases, or ships, or planets, etc.  There's a big difference between "what's could be over that hill" and "what could be in the center of the galaxy."  I'm guessing the majority of the viewers have no clue what could be in the centre of a galaxy (I sure have no idea.)  I mean if the base had just two Collector Cruisers, it's game over for the SR2, upgrades or not.

Thirdly, I think that the plot could have been improved in a much more simple manner. Instead of TIM and Shep sending in probes to check out the base in the beginning/middle, it should happen if Shepard decides that his team isn't ready for the Collectors after they capture the crew. Basically, it becomes a choice of "going in blind" or "going in with intel." It would be a great option because these games are all about choice, and choosing to scout out the Collectors would essentially doom your crew. This would also make more sense because of my second point, because the team does have some idea of what they'll face.

Oh there are so many ways to make a plot coherent, let alone believable.  There was no option to "bullrush" the relay, which I thought would've been always available from the start.  But it's only after the IFF.

A deduction is still a deduction though.  Real intel gained from recon is what military operations require.  This isn't a murder mystery plot, that's for sure, nor could any player/audience comprehend or follow the deductions of a computer-AI figuring out what's in the center of the galactic core inhabited by mysterious, faceless aliens with sci-fi tech.  I can't even wrap my head around that.   For the plot to be effective, the player/audience has to comprehend what's going on and why.  So a simple deduction is alright, but it's not something to base an entire story on, half way, let alone an entire Suicide Mission, where additional, real intel isn't gathered.

[scotchtape622]

You are right, however I think you are heavily nitpicking, which is my issue with your argument.

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...

You are right, however I think you are heavily nitpicking, which is my issue with your argument.

Because my definition of plot involves a "why"?

[lazuli]

smudboy wrote...
Yeah, that's the crude lexicon.

Here's a better one.  Might clarify some other terms up, too:
http://blog.nathanbr...-have-plot.html

Knowing that you were basing your definition of plot on a narrow, patrician viewpoint would have helped me interpret every post you've ever written.  You should link to that in your signature.

But to get to the topic at hand, I wish there had been some squadmates that were completely unkillable.  I know Miranda is kind of hard to kill unless you know what you're doing, but that's not going far enough.  Certain squadmates should have been impossible to kill so that ME3 could have a stable foundation.  As it stands, who knows what we'll face and with whom at our side?

[StarcloudSWG]

A list of events: THe king died. The queen died.

A plot: The king died. The queen died of grief.



ME 2 has a plot. We have a "why" even if the why isn't fully and clearly explained with every detail laid out explicitly in the narrative.

[smudboy]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

A list of events: THe king died. The queen died.
A plot: The king died. The queen died of grief.

ME 2 has a plot. We have a "why" even if the why isn't fully and clearly explained with every detail laid out explicitly in the narrative.

Which kills itself every chance it gets.

[JThompson6577]

smudboy wrote...

StarcloudSWG wrote...

A list of events: THe king died. The queen died.
A plot: The king died. The queen died of grief.

ME 2 has a plot. We have a "why" even if the why isn't fully and clearly explained with every detail laid out explicitly in the narrative.

Which kills itself every chance it gets.

I honestly don't understand.  You've made a point, daily it seems, to express your dislike over this game since it came out.

Now I get not liking the game.  I've played plenty of games that I didn't like.

I get jumping on the message boards and expressing my displeasure.  Especially since you've at least said more than "Sigh, American gamers just like 'spolshins!"

I don't understand why you'd do it for nine months straight.

I would've bailed by now.

[StarcloudSWG]

Sorry, the plot seems pretty clear. It doesn't "kill itself", which means wrapping itself in enigmas and just generally losing track like the writers of, say, Lost.



ME2's plot is clear and straightforward. "Commander Shepard's body is recovered after an attack by mysterious aliens. A shady organization spends two years rebuilding him for the purpose of assembling a team to discover and stop the beings behind the abduction of hundreds of thousands of colonists."



There, Plot. Clear, straightforward. Each character on the team has a sub plot too. So what?

[Moiaussi]

The only thing wrong with the suicide mission was Shepard calling it a suicide mission, despite Illos turning out to be anything but in ME1. There was nowhere near enough information to make any such determination in ME2, and if it had been a suicide mission it would likely have been because the Collectors were known to have more than one ship and to be able to spot the Normandy. It doesn't matter how good a ground squad are if your ship is blown up before you can land.

[smudboy]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Sorry, the plot seems pretty clear. It doesn't "kill itself", which means wrapping itself in enigmas and just generally losing track like the writers of, say, Lost.

Ways in which a plot can kill itself:
1. Introduce another plot.
2. Introduce an entirely different story.
3. Not develop itself.
4. Have holes.
5. Have issues of clarity (lack of exposition, lack of understanding, description, acknolwedgement, etc.)

ME2's plot is simple, but nowhere near as clear as it should be.  It commits acts 1-5 multiple times.

Now we can use the concept of framing, or a frame story, which ME2 is.  So 1 and 2 would be fine.  The problem with that is, 1 and 2 have to eventually connect back to the main plot, unless this is not about the main plot anyway (e.g. The Yellow Rolls Royce.)  But it is.  Unfortunately, these other plots and stories have nothing to do with the main plot, nor do the characters.  These characters develop, but don't develop the protagonist, or the main plot in any way, aside from some obscure number that gets hit, so we get the next main plot advancement.

ME2's plot is clear and straightforward. "Commander Shepard's body is recovered after an attack by mysterious aliens. A shady organization spends two years rebuilding him for the purpose of assembling a team to discover and stop the beings behind the abduction of hundreds of thousands of colonists."

That's not a plot, that's a premise.

There, Plot. Clear, straightforward. Each character on the team has a sub plot too. So what?

You don't even know what a plot is, so I can't understand what you're saying.

The subplots have nothing to do with the main plot.  Now that's OK, provided that's the point of the story: to tell a bunch of other stories, and the main plot is just a stage of platform to do so.  But it's not.  It's about the main plot, whose goal is magically achieved through sheer contrivance.

[lazuli]

smudboy wrote...

You don't even know what a plot is, so I can't understand what you're saying.

You need to clarify.  What you mean is this: "You don't even know what I consider a plot to be, so I can't understand what you're saying."

You've admitted that your definition of plot conflicts with the lexical definition of the word.

[smudboy]

lazuli wrote...

smudboy wrote...

You don't even know what a plot is, so I can't understand what you're saying.

You need to clarify.  What you mean is this: "You don't even know what I consider a plot to be, so I can't understand what you're saying."

You've admitted that your definition of plot conflicts with the lexical definition of the word.

Come to think of it, I've been so confused by ME2 I'm not sure what's going on or what it's supposed to be.

[StarcloudSWG]

Your argument isn't with plot, smudboy. It's with something else, called pacing.

[Mr. Man]

Xilizhra wrote...

CheeseEnchilada wrote...

The old characters are still available. If you lost members on the suicide mission, you should have to miss out on content. Simple.
I still say people are freaking out too much about squadmates in ME3. Then again, our roles as fans are to look too deeply into things

What would be done about people who start an entirely new ME3 game without importing?

Too bad for them.

[smudboy]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Your argument isn't with plot, smudboy. It's with something else, called pacing.

I'm quite sure it's with the lack of a plot, not the speed of the storytelling.

[lazuli]

smudboy wrote...
Come to think of it, I've been so confused by ME2 I'm not sure what's going on or what it's supposed to be.

And here we have a smoke screen employed to mask what must be the closest thing to backpedaling I've ever read from you.  But we're derailing the thread.

[smudboy]

lazuli wrote...

smudboy wrote...
Come to think of it, I've been so confused by ME2 I'm not sure what's going on or what it's supposed to be.

And here we have a smoke screen employed to mask what must be the closest thing to backpedaling I've ever read from you.  But we're derailing the thread.

No seriously, wtf is going on?  We need a bunch of soldiers for...something that's unexplained.  We need to travel through a relay no one can get through, so we magically get onto the corpse of our dead enemy we're trying to kill...just to pick up that thing there...we go on a magical shuttle ride to nowhere so our crew gets abducted...we don't test our thing through the relay...we end up only having to fight the same ship that's been after us all this time...we still get damaged by it...we then crashland in space onto a spacestation and survive...only to have a ground war with all these people we brought along for no reason...

[lazuli]

smudboy wrote...
No seriously, wtf is going on?  We need a bunch of soldiers for...something that's unexplained.  We need to travel through a relay no one can get through, so we magically get onto the corpse of our dead enemy we're trying to kill...just to pick up that thing there...we go on a magical shuttle ride to nowhere so our crew gets abducted...we don't test our thing through the relay...we end up only having to fight the same ship that's been after us all this time...we still get damaged by it...we then crashland in space onto a spacestation and survive...only to have a ground war with all these people we brought along for no reason...

I assure you, I am well aware of how you view ME2.  I'm not trying to change your mind.  I'm just asking you to clarify.  Please stop accusing people of not understanding what a plot is when your definition deviates from the lexicon.  Or, if you truly believe your peripheral definition should be widely accepted, provide some context.  The link was a good start.