133 réponses à ce sujet

[smudboy]

lazuli wrote...

smudboy wrote...
No seriously, wtf is going on?  We need a bunch of soldiers for...something that's unexplained.  We need to travel through a relay no one can get through, so we magically get onto the corpse of our dead enemy we're trying to kill...just to pick up that thing there...we go on a magical shuttle ride to nowhere so our crew gets abducted...we don't test our thing through the relay...we end up only having to fight the same ship that's been after us all this time...we still get damaged by it...we then crashland in space onto a spacestation and survive...only to have a ground war with all these people we brought along for no reason...

I assure you, I am well aware of how you view ME2.  I'm not trying to change your mind.  I'm just asking you to clarify.  Please stop accusing people of not understanding what a plot is when your definition deviates from the lexicon.  Or, if you truly believe your peripheral definition should be widely accepted, provide some context.  The link was a good start.

A plot is the why of a story: why the event after another occurs, why the current path is being taken and not others, why people are doing what they're doing.  It's what connects these events.  It's the glue.

[lazuli]

smudboy wrote...
A plot is the why of a story: why the event after another occurs, why the current path is being taken and not others, why people are doing what they're doing.  It's what connects these events.  It's the glue.

And yet the lexical defintion includes a broader idea of a storyline.

[smudboy]

lazuli wrote...

smudboy wrote...
A plot is the why of a story: why the event after another occurs, why the current path is being taken and not others, why people are doing what they're doing.  It's what connects these events.  It's the glue.

And yet the lexical defintion includes a broader idea of a storyline.

Storyline is analogous to story.  A plot is on top of that.

[lazuli]

smudboy wrote...
Storyline is analogous to story.  A plot is on top of that.

...according to your narrow definition, sure.

[smudboy]

lazuli wrote...

smudboy wrote...
Storyline is analogous to story.  A plot is on top of that.

...according to your narrow definition, sure.

My definition is more robust than the lexicon.

[scotchtape622]

smudboy wrote...

lazuli wrote...

smudboy wrote...
Storyline is analogous to story.  A plot is on top of that.

...according to your narrow definition, sure.

My definition is more robust than the lexicon.

"Robust" != Fact

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

lazuli wrote...

smudboy wrote...
Storyline is analogous to story.  A plot is on top of that.

...according to your narrow definition, sure.

My definition is more robust than the lexicon.

"Robust" != Fact

Um, yes it is.  It's my definition after all, and I know the difference.  Go ahead and compare my definition to the lexicon.

[scotchtape622]

Your definition doesn't matter, the actual definition does.

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Your definition doesn't matter, the actual definition does.

Which we've gone over and we've both defined.

[lazuli]

smudboy wrote...
My definition is more robust than the lexicon.

No, it's not.  It might be more precise.  About the only descriptor we can accurately apply to your definition of plot is that it is not widely held.

[scotchtape622]

smudboy wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

Your definition doesn't matter, the actual definition does.

Which we've gone over and we've both defined.

No, you gave your "version", while I gave the actually definition.

Like I said, I could have a random definition for any word I want, but that wouldn't make it true, even if I might think that it is better.

[smudboy]

lazuli wrote...

smudboy wrote...
My definition is more robust than the lexicon.

No, it's not.  It might be more precise.  About the only descriptor we can accurately apply to your definition of plot is that it is not widely held.

I'm telling you it is.  Because it is.  Here's the proof.

And here's the lexicon:

"A literary term, a plot is all the events in a story particularly rendered toward the achievement of some particular artistic or emotional effect or general theme. ...Basically a plot is the story line or the way a story is written."

"Also called storyline. the plan, scheme, or main story of a literary or dramatic work, as a play, novel, or short story."

My definition:

"The 'why' of a story.  The causes of events in a story that hold it together, the 'glue' of a story.  A plot exists on top of a story, giving the story a purpose, the characters within it, and the events following a meaningful path.  It explains why things are occurring a certain way as opposed to others, why characters are acting a certain way, and the general motives behind the two."

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

Your definition doesn't matter, the actual definition does.

Which we've gone over and we've both defined.

No, you gave your "version", while I gave the actually definition.

Like I said, I could have a random definition for any word I want, but that wouldn't make it true, even if I might think that it is better.

Just because a lexicon definition of something exists doesn't mean it works.  If something fails as what it's to do, it's no longer there.  ME2 is a contrived mess of illogic, whose plot shoots itself in the foot.

[Sidney]

CheeseEnchilada wrote...

The old characters are still available. If you lost members on the suicide mission, you should have to miss out on content. Simple.

It'd be a neat idea - I really like it -  but can't see 'em going that way and "punishing" people with what would be a shorter game.

There are a lot of variables. Recruit or not - people w/o DLC don't even know who Zaeed and Kasumi are - live or die and then the whole ending bit where you can tell TIM to take a flying leap matter - would Miranda still follow you if you blow off Cerberus? I suspect the clearest path will be to wipe the slate and start over because then all continuity issues are taken care of. All your squaddies went back to doing whatever it was they were doing before you dropped into their lives  - or they're already dead.

[scotchtape622]

No. You are using the wrong words. The definition of the plot it the definition that I gave. The end. There is no interpretation for the definition of a word, because there are official meanings for them. You can use slang and such, but in this case, plot isn't slang for "The 'why' of a story. The causes of events in a story that hold it together, the 'glue' of a story. A plot exists on top of a story, giving the story a purpose, the characters within it, and the events following a meaningful path. It explains why things are occurring a certain way as opposed to others, why characters are acting a certain way, and the general motives behind the two."

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...

No. You are using the wrong words. The definition of the plot it the definition that I gave. The end. There is no interpretation for the definition of a word, because there are official meanings for them. You can use slang and such, but in this case, plot isn't slang for "The 'why' of a story. The causes of events in a story that hold it together, the 'glue' of a story. A plot exists on top of a story, giving the story a purpose, the characters within it, and the events following a meaningful path. It explains why things are occurring a certain way as opposed to others, why characters are acting a certain way, and the general motives behind the two."

But that is what I'm arguing.  Literary people, people who read, and write, know better, and make sure their literary devices are clear.  ME2 did not have that level of clarity.

You may as well be saying "a story has a storyline."  Which really doesn't say anything about a plot.

[scotchtape622]

Plot = Storyline...



They are the same thing... Read the definitions.

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Plot = Storyline...

They are the same thing... Read the definitions.

I'll ask you then: what's a storyline?

[scotchtape622]

Do you remember what you learned in High School? It is that little chart that the teachers draw that leads to a Climax and finishes with a resolution. That is a storyline/plot.

[lazuli]

smudboy wrote...

Just because a lexicon definition of something exists doesn't mean it works.

Very well, but if you are arguing about a term and using an obscure understanding of that term's meaning, then you need to provide context to clarify that.  I'm glad you linked to that blog, but this is certainly not the first time you've critiqued the plot of this game and this is the first time I've witnessed you provide something resembling context.  Knowing you were attacking ME2's plot from this standpoint allowed me to understand what you were actually getting at.  Without that knowledge, I found your droning meaningless.  You need to provide context or no one is going to take you seriously.

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Do you remember what you learned in High School? It is that little chart that the teachers draw that leads to a Climax and finishes with a resolution. That is a storyline/plot.

I do.  You're wrong: that's a narrative structure, not a storyline.

Unless that's your definition...

[smudboy]

lazuli wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Just because a lexicon definition of something exists doesn't mean it works.

Very well, but if you are arguing about a term and using an obscure understanding of that term's meaning, then you need to provide context to clarify that.  I'm glad you linked to that blog, but this is certainly not the first time you've critiqued the plot of this game and this is the first time I've witnessed you provide something resembling context.  Knowing you were attacking ME2's plot from this standpoint allowed me to understand what you were actually getting at.  Without that knowledge, I found your droning meaningless.  You need to provide context or no one is going to take you seriously.

In my first set of videos I defined a variety of terms before I argued them.  I do not need to link to a variety of other people to explain where I'm coming from.

If people somehow equate story to plot or to storyline, then these people are wrong, and do not understand what I'm saying.

In here I've described plot to ridiculous levels, and the need for external links is redundant and says nothing of my definition.  This is not semantics: I'm telling you the meaning.  If you still can't get that context?  Well we have problems.

[scotchtape622]

smudboy wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

Do you remember what you learned in High School? It is that little chart that the teachers draw that leads to a Climax and finishes with a resolution. That is a storyline/plot.

I do.  You're wrong: that's a narrative structure, not a storyline.

Unless that's your definition...

That's the definition that the teacher gave me, wrote plot on the top of the board and everything.


My personal definiton compares fiction writing to essays. In essays you have points and particulars. Points are your arguments, and your interpretations of the data. Particulars are information and such that prove your point and help you convince your audience. WIthout particulars, essays become short summaries.

In fiction writing, the "storyline" is that summary of the story, with no dialouge, themes, ect. It is what happened in the story, and every story has one. Even if it isn't good.


EDIT:
http://dictionary.re...com/browse/plot
Also called storyline. the plan, scheme, or main story of a literary or dramatic work, as a play, novel, or short story.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/plot
The pattern of events or main story in a narrative or drama.

My definition is supported by these two definitions (plot=storyline, plot=pattern of events, storyline=events)

Modifié par scotchtape622, 05 octobre 2010 - 04:47 .

[lazuli]

smudboy wrote...

In my first set of videos I defined a variety of terms before I argued them.  I do not need to link to a variety of other people to explain where I'm coming from.

I closed the tab after you claimed that Pull and Lift were identical.

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...
That's the definition that the teacher gave me, wrote plot on the top of the board and everything.

That's great.  Writers, readers and editors in post-sec go a bit further.

In fiction writing, the "storyline" is that summary of the story, with no dialouge, themes, ect. It is what happened in the story, and every story has one. Even if it isn't good.

Yes, every story has a "storyline".  See, to me saying story, or storyline, is exactly the same.

"What happened in the story" = Event A->Event B->Event C...etc.

That is not a plot.  To me, at least.  A plot is more than a series of events.  A series of events?  Yeah, that's just a story.

A plot is the "->" between the events, the why the person is doing something, the cause of it all.  ME2 tries to have one of those.  It fails on so many levels.  That's what I'm saying.