194 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarethus]

 Was reading another spare/kill Loghain thread and this topic was touched on briefly so I made a full thread on it. 

The idea is simple: Howe wasn't present at his estate when you freed Anora and was present at the Landsmeet. Loghain lost and you have to choose both Loghain and Howe's fate. Riordan steps forward highlighting the need for grey wardens. 

So the question to everyone is:

Do you make both of them wardens? Kill one and not the other?  Kill them both? & Why?

Another key factor is please state whether your character is a Human Noble or not. 
 
EDIT: Just to take this thread a bit further (and touching a point KnightofPhoenix made) how would you justify your action in front of the Landsmeet where this is taking place? Why spare one and not the other? Why chop Howe in half in front of them? Conversely could you justify letting Howe become a grey warden when some of the nobles have had relatives harmed by him? 

Modifié par Sarethus, 04 octobre 2010 - 02:17 .

[Reaverwind]

It depends on how much information Riordan gives my character. Given enough information, I'd make Loghain a warden, assuming it doesn't become the ludicrous either/or choice between him and Alistair, in which case my character would stay with the sure thing and kill Loghain. Howe, on the other hand, is way too self-serving to even consider. Off with his head.

[KnightofPhoenix]

My character is a human noble and yes, he would have made Howe a Warden but would have watched him very closely, isolated him from his loyalists and would have made sure to reveal his crimes to everyone. In order to facilitate the task, Howe would fight beside Riordan and not in my party. If he survives the battle, he would be exiled from Ferelden and go serve as a Warden somewhere else.

Why? Because there are bigger things at stake and him being put under my command and made a Warden is a fitting punishment.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 octobre 2010 - 08:50 .

[Obadiah]

Howe has to die. I can't see how I could trust him to watch my (or anyone else's) back in a fight.

[Reaverwind]

Obadiah wrote...

Howe has to die. I can't see how I could trust him to watch my (or anyone else's) back in a fight.

Exactly my feeling - he'd be more of a liability than an asset.

[TJPags]

As a HN, I kill Howe out of hand - no chance, no choice, no discussion, no trial.  He's dead.

As any other origin, I'd be hard pressed to let him live either.  The number of people you find languishing in his dungeon, being tortured or already dead, argues for too many crimes.

As for Riordan - really, the game short changes him.  He shows up out of nowhere, you don't know him, he's a Grey Warden, and he's arguing to spare someone (since we're talking Howe here) who has commited some pretty greivous crimes, without giving you ANY reason beyond a vague "there are reasons".  He doesn't do enough to sway my opinion in any game.

[Reika]

Hm,I don't think any of my characters could be persuaded to let Howe live, not after seeing his dungeons.

[Tigress M]

No, I can't fathom a game where I could let Howe live even without knowing what he did to the Couslands. But then, I've never spared Loghain either (except in one playthrough where I was going for an achievement).

[CalJones]

That's a toughie. Loghain and Howe are two entirely different beasts. Loghain has been doing the wrong things for the right reasons - he genuinely believes he is doing the best thing for Fereldan, and once he sees that the Warden is doing a better job he will submit to their judgement, following them willingly if that is what is chosen.

Howe, on the other hand, is motivated by power and self-advancement. Loghain has sacrificed a great deal for his country, but Howe is a man of dark appetites and chooses to indulge them at every opportunity. He was behind the purge of the Alienage (I therefore find it likely that he would have been the one to suggest bringing in slavers), the hiring of the Antivan Crows, that nice little warden sympathiser trap in the Pearl and Maker knows what else. I wouldn't have been at all surprised if he had betrayed Loghain once he'd served his purpose.

Whether I'd have let him live would depend very much upon his attitude. I doubt he'd accept judgement in the same spirit as Loghain, taking into account his last words when you do kill him. But if he did ask for mercy, I'd certainly consider it.

My preferred option would have been to have him tried by the Landsmeet, or whatever the protocol is. Killing him in his home doesn't exactly make the Warden look good - monstrous though he is,

[Aeowyn]

I'd rather have him tried than making him a Warden tbh. While Loghain did what he did for the sake of Ferelden, Howe just did it for himself and his own personal gain.

In my mind he is a sociopath and I very much doubt that he would change by becoming a Grey Warden.

[Zjarcal]

Thanks for creating the thread I was too lazy to create! 

The scenario you describe is interesting. My HNF would kill Howe no matter the situation. She's out for vigilante justice and Howe will get it, one way or another. She doesn't care if Howe could be useful or whether there are larger things at stake. When she sees Howe she sees her dying parents, Iona lying dead, Mother Mallol, Ser Gilmore, her home being assaulted... nope, there's no way she would spare Howe under any circumstances.

As for other characters, I doubt they would. As I've said in the Loghain thread, I only spare Loghain with my HNF because she sees in Loghain the hero he once was, hence she wants to offer him a chance at redemption. My other characters don't really care for that, so I doubt they would feel any more sympathy towards Howe. Not to mention, Howe doesn't show any signs of regret for the things he's done. Even his dying words are full of spite, unlike Loghain who recognizes his defeat and surrenders gracefully.

Besides, since Riordan doesn't really explain why are Wardens needed, they wouldn't think it's such an important issue.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 03 octobre 2010 - 10:05 .

[TJPags]

One thing I'll give Howe - and it was pointed out well by CalJones, Aeowyn and Zjarcal - is that he's honest, right to the end.
He's doing what he does for self-advancement and no other reason, and it's clear with his dying words - "I deserved more".  He makes no apologies about it, no attempts to rationalize.
That said, his honesty about his motives doesn't change my mind at all about whether to kill him, but at least he doesn't toss out tired platitudes about regret before he goes.

[Monica21]

Origin aside, if the idea of being a Grey Warden is that you recruit only the best, then I can think of a great many other villians (and non-villians) in the game I would rather conscript than Howe. The problem with Howe is that he's selfish and self-obsessed, always believing that he's worth more than he really is. He attached himself to Bryce Cousland and then to Loghain, based on nothing more than which way the wind was blowing. I find it difficult to believe he's a very good fighter or strategist. He would be a body to me, and if all I needed were bodies I'd conscript every prisoner in Fort Drakon. Howe is useless to me.

If I chose Howe and Loghain's fate at the Landsmeet, Howe would die and Loghain wouldn't.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I think the situation the op describes should be taken into consideration. This is in front of the Landsmeet. Sparing one while killing the other (regardless of the subtle but very important differences between the two), *could* be seen as an act of hypocrisy and if Cousland, could be seen as you delivering personal revenge and not justice.
Afterall, if you are concerned about justice, why kill one and not the other when they are both implicated in all this? Of course we all know Loghain and Howe are very different, and while I do believe in making exceptions, giving the appearance that I make exceptions based on my whim alone may not be the wisest thing to do.

So in that scenario, Howe would live (and he did fight in the past, he is a war hero. So he is at least somewhat capable), only to cement my image as a "just and fair" Consort. But unlike Loghain, I am not doing this for him to redeem himself, nor will I ever trust, respect or like him.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 octobre 2010 - 10:28 .

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think the situation the op describes should be taken into consideration. This is in front of the Landsmeet. Sparing one while killing the other (regardless of the subtle but very important differences between the two), *could* be seen as an act of hypocrisy and if Cousland, could be seen as you delivering personal revenge and not justice.  

This is true indeed. It would depend on the character to decide if they care or not about how the Landsmeet perceives their decision. My HNF wouldn't care but those out to be Queen or King consort would probably want to think twice about it.

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think the situation the op describes should be taken into consideration. This is in front of the Landsmeet. Sparing one while killing the other (regardless of the subtle but very important differences between the two), *could* be seen as an act of hypocrisy and if Cousland, could be seen as you delivering personal revenge and not justice.

Good point.

In that case, Howe can get thrown in Fort Drakon and I'll conscript Loghain.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think the situation the op describes should be taken into consideration. This is in front of the Landsmeet. Sparing one while killing the other (regardless of the subtle but very important differences between the two), *could* be seen as an act of hypocrisy and if Cousland, could be seen as you delivering personal revenge and not justice.
Afterall, if you are concerned about justice, why kill one and not the other when they are both implicated in all this? Of course we all know Loghain and Howe are very different, and while I do believe in making exceptions, giving the appearance that I make exceptions based on my whim alone may not be the wisest thing to do.

So in that scenario, Howe would live (and he did fight in the past, he is a war hero. So he is at least somewhat capable), only to cement my image as a "just and fair" Consort. But unlike Loghain, I am not doing this for him to redeem himself, nor will I ever trust, respect or like him.

Good point about (particularly) a Cousland being seen as out for vengeance.  But, even in their final scenes, one is repentant (Loghain) and the other (Howe) is not (unless we're imagining some kind of completely new scene for Howe), so there is, perhaps, reason to spare one and not the other.

That said, if you ARE going to treat them both the same for this reason, can you really justify sparing both of them, knowing that Howe is a power hungry, self-serving despot?  How could you ever trust him out of your sight? 

I think a 'trest them the same' scenario HAS to end badly for Loghain (not a problem for me, as I kill Loghain every chance I get)

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
Good point about (particularly) a Cousland being seen as out for vengeance.  But, even in their final scenes, one is repentant (Loghain) and the other (Howe) is not (unless we're imagining some kind of completely new scene for Howe), so there is, perhaps, reason to spare one and not the other.

If Howe is stupid enough to not yield to me, then he has giving me all the reason I need to end him. And I'll be thanking him for it. But somehow I don't think he is that stupid.

TJPags wrote...
That said, if you ARE going to treat them both the same for this reason, can you really justify sparing both of them, knowing that Howe is a power hungry, self-serving despot?  How could you ever trust him out of your sight? 

Yes, I can, for Howe is finished whether he lives or dies in the final battle. And making him a warden, under the command of a Cousland who saves Ferelden while he is forgotten as the nothing that he is, is the greatest form of punishment you can inflict to such a man.

As for trusting him. Isolating him from loyalists, declaring his crimes to everyone and removing all his titles and riches would effectively neutralise him as a threat. In addition, his entire family would be "guests" in the royal palace. Should he do anything, accidents will happen.

[errant_knight]

Sarethus wrote...

 Was reading another spare/kill Loghain thread and this topic was touched on briefly so I made a full thread on it. 

The idea is simple: Howe wasn't present at his estate when you freed Anora and was present at the Landsmeet. Loghain lost and you have to choose both Loghain and Howe's fate. Riordan steps forward highlighting the need for grey wardens. 

So the question to everyone is:

Do you make both of them wardens? Kill one and not the other?  Kill them both? & Why?

Another key factor is please state whether your character is a Human Noble or not. 
 

No, I wouldn't spare him, no matter what the Origin. His crimes deserve death. Nothing else is adequate. I feel the same way about Loghain. Making him a warden sends a bad message about the consequences of what I consider regicide and treason. I have yet to play a warden that didn't feel that justice demanded the death of both.

[Sabariel]

Since he slaughtered Oren and an orphanage full of elven children I'd have to say no, I wouldn't spare him.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Nods.

KoP catches The Correct again. Good posts.

Why thank you

[Raiil]

No. Besides wealth, Howe didn't strike my character as having any assets needed by the Wardens. While I killed Loghain, I believe he had strengths necessary to be a competent Warden. I also don't think making someone a Warden is exactly punishment, as much as my char (and I) aren't fans of the Wardens.



It's the same reason I wouldn't make Anora or Cyrion a Warden. They have particular skill sets, but not the ones I'd think was necessary for a Warden.

[Briiel]

I would have to agree with KOP on this . While in all of my play thru's on my human nobles I would never consider letting Howe live unless it was some miracle and I got a option to throw him in jail to be tried against his peers. I usually take vegence as my lead in his role.

Now my mage not having known about the Cousland attack she might have been more sparing but still had him jailed.He is very greedy .

Lohgain is another matter I think of betrayal with him because he left us all to die and then turned around and blamed the Grey Wardens . Saying we had lead the king to his death. That still rubs me wrong because we weren't the ones that had all these notions. King Cailin had his ideas and none wanted to Listen to Duncan when he tried to tell them that just because there wasn't a archdemon right then that doesn't mean there wasn't one.