194 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

King Cailin had his ideas and none wanted to Listen to Duncan when he tried to tell them that just because there wasn't a archdemon right then that doesn't mean there wasn't one.

There had been no sign at all and no proof this was anything more than an incursion. Since Duncan won't tell everyone WHY he thinks that it's a Blight (that he's been dreaming of the Archdemon and shares the taint) no one has any reason to think that he knows it for a fact and isn't just giving his opinion.

[Giggles_Manically]

Someone should write a short where Howe Kills the Archdemon.

But where Alistair spared him making the warden run off.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Someone should write a short where Howe Kills the Archdemon.
But where Alistair spared him making the warden run off.

Yea, I am sure Howe would be all dramatic in that scene.

Howe: "I did so much wr...oh forget it, no one is allowed to out-evil me!" *kills archdemon*.

[darkshadow136]

kill them both, they both betrayed the king, and if you played a noble character Howe killed your family so he should be dead no matter what.

[Sarah1281]

darkshadow136 wrote...

kill them both, they both betrayed the king, and if you played a noble character Howe killed your family so he should be dead no matter what.

Did Howe actually do anything that could even vaguely be called betraying Cailan? He wasn't even at Ostagar. Unless neglecting to show up counts as treason now? 

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Someone should write a short where Howe Kills the Archdemon.
But where Alistair spared him making the warden run off.

Yea, I am sure Howe would be all dramatic in that scene.

Howe: "I did so much wr...oh forget it, no one is allowed to out-evil me!" *kills archdemon*.

I was more thinking:
Glue a bunch of spikes and swords on him.
Fire him from a ballista right into the archdemon.

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

darkshadow136 wrote...

kill them both, they both betrayed the king, and if you played a noble character Howe killed your family so he should be dead no matter what.

Did Howe actually do anything that could even vaguely be called betraying Cailan? He wasn't even at Ostagar. Unless neglecting to show up counts as treason now? 

Sure counts as something.  The king called his nobles to Ostagar, Howe delayed his men intentionally, so he could ambush Highever.  That's kind of, not listening to the orders of your king at all.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
I was more thinking:
Glue a bunch of spikes and swords on him.
Fire him from a ballista right into the archdemon.

Or attach some of Dworkin's bombs on him.
Human bomb Howe.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
I was more thinking:
Glue a bunch of spikes and swords on him.
Fire him from a ballista right into the archdemon.

Or attach some of Dworkin's bombs on him.
Human bomb Howe.

If he wasent needed though he would make an awesome firework then.

[blothulfur]

As a Cousland I would spare him then spend weeks making him sing his screams of apology on the rack before setting him loose as a limbless husk to beg on the streets of denerim with child murderer branded on his forehead. Then i'd start getting creative.

[tool_bot]

Hm... Pointless poetic justice or just getting rid of him. Dr. Evil plot or just getting rid of him. Barbaric idea that any amount of pain you inflict on someone is ok so long as they 'have it coming' or just getting rid of him.



Decisions, decisions. It's a tough call but I'll have to go with just getting rid of him.



Alim (pretty much my canon. obviously not a HM. probably never going to do a HM.) isn't a cruel man but he isn't a particularly noble one either. Here are two individuals who have proven themselves to be very dangerous and willing to go to any extreme to maintain their hold over Ferelden. Even weakening the war front against the Blight. Are they redeemable? Irrelevant. I can't trust either to do a Warden's job.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Good point about (particularly) a Cousland being seen as out for vengeance.  But, even in their final scenes, one is repentant (Loghain) and the other (Howe) is not (unless we're imagining some kind of completely new scene for Howe), so there is, perhaps, reason to spare one and not the other.

If Howe is stupid enough to not yield to me, then he has giving me all the reason I need to end him. And I'll be thanking him for it. But somehow I don't think he is that stupid.

Well, I assume he's as arrogant and unrepenant as he was when he was confronted in the game.  And even if he does 'yield', could it possibly be seen as sincere?  Somehow, I doubt it.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
That said, if you ARE going to treat them both the same for this reason, can you really justify sparing both of them, knowing that Howe is a power hungry, self-serving despot?  How could you ever trust him out of your sight? 

Yes, I can, for Howe is finished whether he lives or dies in the final battle. And making him a warden, under the command of a Cousland who saves Ferelden while he is forgotten as the nothing that he is, is the greatest form of punishment you can inflict to such a man.

As for trusting him. Isolating him from loyalists, declaring his crimes to everyone and removing all his titles and riches would effectively neutralise him as a threat. In addition, his entire family would be "guests" in the royal palace. Should he do anything, accidents will happen.

So you'd imprison his family just to avoid killing him, so you can look like you're not just out for vengeance?  How can you possibly justify this?  His family did nothing to deserve that.

Now, I don't necessarily have a problem doing what you say here - it's a valid way of ensuring cooperation, up to a point.  I just wonder how you can justify it, since your reason for sparing Howe seems to be primarily one of image - doesn't this damage your image?

[Sarah1281]

blothulfur wrote...

As a Cousland I would spare him then spend weeks making him sing his screams of apology on the rack before setting him loose as a limbless husk to beg on the streets of denerim with child murderer branded on his forehead. Then i'd start getting creative.

Yep, you definitely have the moral high ground here.

[Obadiah]

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

darkshadow136 wrote...

kill them both, they both betrayed the king, and if you played a noble character Howe killed your family so he should be dead no matter what.

Did Howe actually do anything that could even vaguely be called betraying Cailan? He wasn't even at Ostagar. Unless neglecting to show up counts as treason now? 

Sure counts as something.  The king called his nobles to Ostagar, Howe delayed his men intentionally, so he could ambush Highever.  That's kind of, not listening to the orders of your king at all.

How did Howe expect to get away with the act  of wiping out the Couslands if he didn't know Cailin (who would obviously be against it) would be taken out? That looks like strong evidence he was in a conspiracy against the King, and that is treason.

[darkshadow136]

Sarah1281 wrote...

darkshadow136 wrote...

kill them both, they both betrayed the king, and if you played a noble character Howe killed your family so he should be dead no matter what.

Did Howe actually do anything that could even vaguely be called betraying Cailan? He wasn't even at Ostagar. Unless neglecting to show up counts as treason now? 

Howe was in bed so to speak with Logain and his plans. Howe was supposed to have his troops at Ostagar but instead kept his troops hidden so he could attack your family's castle and take over Highever and kill your family who was loyal to Calien. All this was in order to fulfill Logain's plans and forward Howe's own ambition and jealosly against your father. Add it all up they all deserved to die and were traitors.

[Giggles_Manically]

Sarah1281 wrote...

blothulfur wrote...

As a Cousland I would spare him then spend weeks making him sing his screams of apology on the rack before setting him loose as a limbless husk to beg on the streets of denerim with child murderer branded on his forehead. Then i'd start getting creative.

Yep, you definitely have the moral high ground here.

I sense a great disturbance in the sarcasm.... 

[Sarah1281]

darkshadow136 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

darkshadow136 wrote...

kill them both, they both betrayed the king, and if you played a noble character Howe killed your family so he should be dead no matter what.

Did Howe actually do anything that could even vaguely be called betraying Cailan? He wasn't even at Ostagar. Unless neglecting to show up counts as treason now? 

Howe was in bed so to speak with Logain and his plans. Howe was supposed to have his troops at Ostagar but instead kept his troops hidden so he could attack your family's castle and take over Highever and kill your family who was loyal to Calien. All this was in order to fulfill Logain's plans and forward Howe's own ambition and jealosly against your father. Add it all up they all deserved to die and were traitors.

 But the Couslands were not royalty and so murdering them is not treason against the King.

[blothulfur]

Thank you I try.

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

blothulfur wrote...

As a Cousland I would spare him then spend weeks making him sing his screams of apology on the rack before setting him loose as a limbless husk to beg on the streets of denerim with child murderer branded on his forehead. Then i'd start getting creative.

Yep, you definitely have the moral high ground here.

Frankly, as a Cousland, that thinking is perfectly understandable.

I can't even begin to describe what I would do to someone who slaughtered my entire family in front of me.  My only regret would be that they would probably die too soon because I don't know how to keep them alive while I cut pieces off of them.

Moral hight ground be damned - think about what that Cousland witnessed, and pretend it was really you.  And then tell me you would be in favor of setting such a person free.

[Giggles_Manically]

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

blothulfur wrote...

As a Cousland I would spare him then spend weeks making him sing his screams of apology on the rack before setting him loose as a limbless husk to beg on the streets of denerim with child murderer branded on his forehead. Then i'd start getting creative.

Yep, you definitely have the moral high ground here.

Frankly, as a Cousland, that thinking is perfectly understandable.

I can't even begin to describe what I would do to someone who slaughtered my entire family in front of me.  My only regret would be that they would probably die too soon because I don't know how to keep them alive while I cut pieces off of them.

Moral hight ground be damned - think about what that Cousland witnessed, and pretend it was really you.  And then tell me you would be in favor of setting such a person free.

The thing is...
You lose any ground to stand on if you do.

You become worse than him, and just make yourself into a monster for revenge.

If someone did what Howe did to my family, I would still kill them, but I would make it quick.
Dead is dead after all. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
Well, I assume he's as arrogant and unrepenant as he was when he was confronted in the game.  And even if he does 'yield', could it possibly be seen as sincere?  Somehow, I doubt it.

I don't think he will be as sincere and it's not relevent. I don't care about his sincerity,  which I can't prove or disprove, I care about my image.

Now, I don't necessarily have a problem doing what you say here - it's a valid way of ensuring cooperation, up to a point.  I just wonder how you can justify it, since your reason for sparing Howe seems to be primarily one of image - doesn't this damage your image?

His family is implicated and they would be put under house arrest (whether at the palace or elsewhere) until the crisis had abaited  They would not be officially hostages, just under arrest, for their own safety as we cannot guarantee it with angry elves and nobles around. But Howe will understand the implications.

I don't think it will ruin my image if I find ways to ensure cooperation, once Howe's crimes are all revealed. The official story will be that Howe's family is invited to the palace to ensure its safety and to isolate them from Amaranthine, until we can investigate their innocence. 
It will not make me look like a hypocrite or make me look vengeful as much as me killing Howe but sparing Loghain even though Loghain was the regent and Howe was his subordinate.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 octobre 2010 - 12:05 .

[Sarah1281]

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

blothulfur wrote...

As a Cousland I would spare him then spend weeks making him sing his screams of apology on the rack before setting him loose as a limbless husk to beg on the streets of denerim with child murderer branded on his forehead. Then i'd start getting creative.

Yep, you definitely have the moral high ground here.

Frankly, as a Cousland, that thinking is perfectly understandable.

I can't even begin to describe what I would do to someone who slaughtered my entire family in front of me.  My only regret would be that they would probably die too soon because I don't know how to keep them alive while I cut pieces off of them.

Moral hight ground be damned - think about what that Cousland witnessed, and pretend it was really you.  And then tell me you would be in favor of setting such a person free.

Who said I wanted to set Howe free? I just feel that people who are in favor of torturing Howe and/or murdering his family can't really talk about justice or how evil Howe is as they've crossed the line, too. Just because Howe is a monster does not mean that unnecessarily committing monstrous acts on him doesn't make you a monster as well.

[TJPags]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

blothulfur wrote...

As a Cousland I would spare him then spend weeks making him sing his screams of apology on the rack before setting him loose as a limbless husk to beg on the streets of denerim with child murderer branded on his forehead. Then i'd start getting creative.

Yep, you definitely have the moral high ground here.

Frankly, as a Cousland, that thinking is perfectly understandable.

I can't even begin to describe what I would do to someone who slaughtered my entire family in front of me.  My only regret would be that they would probably die too soon because I don't know how to keep them alive while I cut pieces off of them.

Moral hight ground be damned - think about what that Cousland witnessed, and pretend it was really you.  And then tell me you would be in favor of setting such a person free.

The thing is...
You lose any ground to stand on if you do.

You become worse than him, and just make yourself into a monster for revenge.

If someone did what Howe did to my family, I would still kill them, but I would make it quick.
Dead is dead after all. 

Lose any ground to stand on?  How?  Why?  With whom?  With the person I just put on the throne?  Who I just saved from possible death at the hands of the same guy?  (Yes, Anora). 

Or with the only other Warden in Ferelden, who is just as adamant about killing Loghain as I am about Howe?

I don't think I'd lose ground with either of them.

[blothulfur]

"He who fights monsters should look to it that he does not become a monster, when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you". My cousland was a broken sad man with a vicious rage in his heart, he chose the ultimate sacrifice because he knew what a monster he had become.

[Tigress M]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
I was more thinking:
Glue a bunch of spikes and swords on him.
Fire him from a ballista right into the archdemon.

Now that was funny!