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[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

blothulfur wrote...

As a Cousland I would spare him then spend weeks making him sing his screams of apology on the rack before setting him loose as a limbless husk to beg on the streets of denerim with child murderer branded on his forehead. Then i'd start getting creative.

Yep, you definitely have the moral high ground here.

Frankly, as a Cousland, that thinking is perfectly understandable.

I can't even begin to describe what I would do to someone who slaughtered my entire family in front of me.  My only regret would be that they would probably die too soon because I don't know how to keep them alive while I cut pieces off of them.

Moral hight ground be damned - think about what that Cousland witnessed, and pretend it was really you.  And then tell me you would be in favor of setting such a person free.

Who said I wanted to set Howe free? I just feel that people who are in favor of torturing Howe and/or murdering his family can't really talk about justice or how evil Howe is as they've crossed the line, too. Just because Howe is a monster does not mean that unnecessarily committing monstrous acts on him doesn't make you a monster as well.

Well, I never said anythng about touching his family.  In fact, my HN recruited Nate in Awakening.

And maybe I do cross the line by torturing such a person.  If I was in that situation, I can't imagine I'd care. 

I DON'T think I'd be in any way the monster Howe is - I wasn't doing that for any type of personal material gain, nor would I move on and do that to anyone else, or commit any of the other monstrous acts he committed.

[Sarah1281]

Lose any ground to stand on? How? Why? With whom? With the person I just put on the throne? Who I just saved from possible death at the hands of the same guy? (Yes, Anora).



Or with the only other Warden in Ferelden, who is just as adamant about killing Loghain as I am about Howe?



I don't think I'd lose ground with either of them.

MORAL high ground. If you don't care about that then fine but several people have said in the past that they feel perfectly justified to do all sorts of unspeakable things to Howe and his family because Howe started it.

[Briiel]

For me I wouldn't torture him , hed either be tried for justice or Id kill Howe . I wouldn't hold it against his family unless they showed to be of the same stripes as him ( they could have been bullied for all we know) .

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Well, I assume he's as arrogant and unrepenant as he was when he was confronted in the game.  And even if he does 'yield', could it possibly be seen as sincere?  Somehow, I doubt it.

I don't think he will be as sincere and it's not relevent. I don't care about his sincerity,  which I can't prove or disprove, I care about my image.

So you only care that he mouths regret, not that he feels it?

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Now, I don't necessarily have a problem doing what you say here - it's a valid way of ensuring cooperation, up to a point.  I just wonder how you can justify it, since your reason for sparing Howe seems to be primarily one of image - doesn't this damage your image?

His family is implicated and they would be put under house arrest (whether at the palace or elsewhere) until the crisis had abaited  They would not be officially hostages, just under arrest, for their own safety as we cannot guarantee it with angry elves and nobles around. But Howe will understand the implications.

I don't think it will ruin my image if I find ways to ensure cooperation, once Howe's crimes are all revealed. The official story will be that Howe's family is invited to the palace to ensure its safety and to isolate them from Amaranthine, until we can investigate their innocence. 
It will not make me look like a hypocrite or make me look vengeful as much as me killing Howe but sparing Loghain even though Loghain was the regent and Howe was his subordinate.

How is his family implicated at all?  And how will you deal with questions about why his family - which, from what I gather, is in Amaranthine and not Denerim, is brough to Denerim to keep them safe from elves in the Denerim alienage?
I thnk you're going to a few too many contortions here to justify sparing Howe because you don't want to kill Loghain.  Killing the unrepetant one who acted for personal gain, and sparing the one who acted to protect his country and regrets his actions is, I really think, perfectly acceptable.

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lose any ground to stand on? How? Why? With whom? With the person I just put on the throne? Who I just saved from possible death at the hands of the same guy? (Yes, Anora).

Or with the only other Warden in Ferelden, who is just as adamant about killing Loghain as I am about Howe?

I don't think I'd lose ground with either of them.

MORAL high ground. If you don't care about that then fine but several people have said in the past that they feel perfectly justified to do all sorts of unspeakable things to Howe and his family because Howe started it.

It wasn't you I was asking, it was (I think) Giggles, but if that's what he meant, my response is:

Who said I needed moral high ground?  What does that gain me, exactly, that I should be afraid to lose? 

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
So you only care that he mouths regret, not that he feels it?

That he submits to my authority and yields.
I couldn't care less what he feels, he has become nothing by that point.

How is his family implicated at all?  And how will you deal with questions about why his family - which, from what I gather, is in Amaranthine and not Denerim, is brough to Denerim to keep them safe from elves in the Denerim alienage?

Because the Howes need to be removed from Amaranthine if we are to secure Amaranthine's loyalty and end the civil war. Which is exactly what happens in the game, the Howes lose Amaranthine and all of them were punished for his crimes (whether that's just or not is not the issue). So yes, they will be brought to Denerim, to isolate them from Amaranthine, secure their loyalty and investigate their innocence and put under house arrest to ensure their safety.  

 Killing the unrepetant one who acted for personal gain, and sparing the one who acted to protect his country and regrets his actions is, I really think, perfectly acceptable.

Things that you can't prove to the Landsmeet. And might make you look vengeful. Which is not what I want.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 octobre 2010 - 12:21 .

[Briiel]

Sarah1281 wrote:< But the Couslands were not royalty and so murdering them is not treason against the King.>



I took this snippet said earlier. Correct me if I'm wrong but they are royalty

this taken from lore on the couslands:



In the present, Highever is one of only two teyrnirs, the other being Gwaren, granting the Cousland family power and influence second only to the King.

[TJPags]

Briiel wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote:

I took this snippet said earlier. Correct me if I'm wrong but they are royalty
this taken from lore on the couslands:

In the present, Highever is one of only two teyrnirs, the other being Gwaren, granting the Cousland family power and influence second only to the King.

High nobility, but not royal.

[darkshadow136]

Briiel wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote:

I took this snippet said earlier. Correct me if I'm wrong but they are royalty
this taken from lore on the couslands:

In the present, Highever is one of only two teyrnirs, the other being Gwaren, granting the Cousland family power and influence second only to the King.

Nicely said;) I would have responded But I get tired of explaining and defending every aspect of my responses. Bottom line the Couslands needed to be killed off in order for Logain to take over the kingdom of Fereldon. Logain already had planned the death of the Arl of Redcliffe with poisoning him, and Howe was to take care of the Couslands to consolidate the kingdom so Logain could take over as Regent to his Daughter the Queen.

It was like Logain took pages right out of Sun Tzu the art of war the way he divided and conquered and past along the scaps to Howe to pay for his loyality.

[Sarah1281]

darkshadow136 wrote...

Briiel wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote:

I took this snippet said earlier. Correct me if I'm wrong but they are royalty
this taken from lore on the couslands:

In the present, Highever is one of only two teyrnirs, the other being Gwaren, granting the Cousland family power and influence second only to the King.

Nicely said;) I would have responded But I get tired of explaining and defending every aspect of my responses. Bottom line the Couslands needed to be killed off in order for Logain to take over the kingdom of Fereldon. Logain already had planned the death of the Arl of Redcliffe with poisoning him, and Howe was to take care of the Couslands to consolidate the kingdom so Logain could take over as Regent to his Daughter the Queen.

It was like Logain took pages right out of Sun Tzu the art of war the way he divided and conquered and past along the scaps to Howe to pay for his loyality.

Except that she was wrong.

I shouldn't have to do this but...

"Royal family (by extension the ruling house of any monarchy, regardless of the title), or one or more of its members"

That family? The Theirins. The Couslands are not royalty. They are nobility and they are very, very powerful but that does NOT make them royalty.

[Briiel]

Sarah1281 wrote...

darkshadow136 wrote...

Briiel wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote:

I took this snippet said earlier. Correct me if I'm wrong but they are royalty
this taken from lore on the couslands:

In the present, Highever is one of only two teyrnirs, the other being Gwaren, granting the Cousland family power and influence second only to the King.

Nicely said;) I would have responded But I get tired of explaining and defending every aspect of my responses. Bottom line the Couslands needed to be killed off in order for Logain to take over the kingdom of Fereldon. Logain already had planned the death of the Arl of Redcliffe with poisoning him, and Howe was to take care of the Couslands to consolidate the kingdom so Logain could take over as Regent to his Daughter the Queen.

It was like Logain took pages right out of Sun Tzu the art of war the way he divided and conquered and past along the scaps to Howe to pay for his loyality.

Except that she was wrong.

I shouldn't have to do this but...

"Royal family (by extension the ruling house of any monarchy, regardless of the title), or one or more of its members"

That family? The Theirins. The Couslands are not royalty. They are nobility and they are very, very powerful but that does NOT make them royalty.

And as someone pointed out before that they are High Nobility and I did say correct me if I'm wrong. The Couslands were second to the King as was/is Lohgain. Meaning Howe had to take them out and that this was a part in the whole Lohgain/Howe conspiracy.Howe detained his men so he could attack the Couslands Homestead and take over the lands. Lohgain sent a blood mage to kill Arl Eamon. Lohgain also made false promises to people in order to get them to side with him if you listen to the people in the Circle they were told Lohgain would help them (not exactly as he worded it)

[KnightofPhoenix]

Oh yes, that argument again. How naive of me to think that this has finally been put to rest.

David Gaider said Loghain had nothing to do with the Cousland massacre /end argument.

[TJPags]

Briiel wrote...
And as someone pointed out before that they are High Nobility and I did say correct me if I'm wrong. The Couslands were second to the King as was/is Lohgain. Meaning Howe had to take them out and that this was a part in the whole Lohgain/Howe conspiracy.Howe detained his men so he could attack the Couslands Homestead and take over the lands. Lohgain sent a blood mage to kill Arl Eamon. Lohgain also made false promises to people in order to get them to side with him if you listen to the people in the Circle they were told Lohgain would help them (not exactly as he worded it)

The Couslands were petty powerful - Bryce was considered by the Landsmeet for king instead of Caillan.  In that line of thought, I agree they were second only to the king.

As for the rest - don't go there. You'll lose the argument about Howe and Loghain in conspiracy to take over the country.  Apparently, David Gaider has made several comments which completely contradict what's seen and implied in game, and, well, a lot of people therefore disregard the game for what he said.  You'll never get through to them.

[Sarah1281]

Lohgain also made false promises to people in order to get them to side with him if you listen to the people in the Circle they were told Lohgain would help them (not exactly as he worded it)

How is that a false promise? According to Wynne (never Loghain's biggest fan) then Uldred only said that Loghain had promised that he would help them break free from Chantry control (which Alistair and/or Anora also pledges to do if you take the mage boon) if they supported him. Due to Wynne insisting that Loghain was evil and Uldred going crazy, they don't. The condition for support was not met and therefore Loghain didn't break any promises to the Circle.

[Briiel]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Oh yes, that argument again. How naive of me to think that this has finally been put to rest.
David Gaider said Loghain had nothing to do with the Cousland massacre /end argument.

Oh I wasn't saying that Lohgain was apart of that ,I think that Howe was trying to get back lands his family had along time before the Couslands had it. I do think Howe had his own motives and probaly didn't tell Lohgain until after he had done it. Howe was always very shifty to me. I think given the chance he would have turned on anyone.I do think Lohgain knew some of it later on tho. You can't keep something like that a secret for long.

Sorry If I made it seem like I thought Lohgain was tied to the Cousland Slaughter.

The broken promises I talk of is he never follows thru with them. Jowan states Lohgain promised he would help me with my situation but he's left me here to rot hasn't he.

The Blood Mage you almost kill in the circle goes along that line as well.

Modifié par Briiel, 04 octobre 2010 - 01:13 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Briiel wrote...
Oh I wasn't saying that Lohgain was apart of that ,I think that Howe was trying to get back lands his family had along time before the Couslands had it. I do think Howe had his own motives and probaly didn't tell Lohgain until after he had done it. Howe was always very shifty to me. I think given the chance he would have turned on anyone.

Sorry If I made it seem like I thought Lohgain was tied to the Cousland Slaughter.

I apologize for misreading and reacting too quickly.

[ejoslin]

Hmmmm, Loghain did not want to kill Arl Eamon (he just wanted him sick and out of the way for awhile) and Loghain had nothing to do with Howe killing the Couslands.

Dairren may tell you that many people felt that Bryce should be king instead of Cailin, but as far as being second to the king? I don't think that there was anything that formal -- next in the royal line is the heir, not a Teyrn. Bryce had a larger, more wealthy Teyrnir so was more powerful than Loghain. But I don't think the writers meant anything nearly as premeditated as what is being said here.

Edit: And woops, in the time I went to write the message and got it posted, the conversation had moved on!

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 octobre 2010 - 01:17 .

[packardbell]

 No, Howe is an opportunist and cares for nothing, what Loghain did was something out of necessity.

[naledgeborn]

I'd conscript his sorry ass even as a HN. If Zevran, lives and Loghain lives, I don't see why this bastard would get any better. Hell if I could put Zevran through the Joining I would. Work it off or die. 9/10 the former would get chosen. Mercy looks a lot better on paper than ruthlessness, And by that point the Warden is pulling the strings so worrying about a coup is exercise in futility.

[Bahlgan]

If I spared Howe, it would be to make him a satchel charge to detonate in the middle of a darkspawn mob. Only it would be a dud. Howe would make a wonderful feast for the spawn.

[asaiasai]

I about 50% of the time take Loghain over Allistair with Allistair's fate usually being married off to Anora. That will teach you to throw a hissy fit in the landsmeet, betray me and make me look like an ass Allistair. For all of Loghain's crimes he WAS just trying to do what he thought was best for Feraldin, and i can not and will not fault him for that considering i spent 40 plus hours doing the same thing.

Howe on the other hand would not survive any encounter with any warden regardless of origin because Howe was out for Howe. Rendon Howe did what he did to increase his stature, wealth and power as such he is entitled to NOTHING not even a quick and painless death. I would have loved to have had the opportunity to spend some quality time with my dear friend Rendon. OH the symphony of pain i would write using that man's flesh as my canvas, I would play him like an instrument. The hiss of red hot pokers on bare unprotected flesh, the accompanying screams of agony and the pleading for mercy, all in rhythm to create a symphony of justice rendered. I would peel him like an orange. I am all tingly. lol

Asai

Modifié par asaiasai, 04 octobre 2010 - 05:27 .

[Zjarcal]

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

blothulfur wrote...

As a Cousland I would spare him then spend weeks making him sing his screams of apology on the rack before setting him loose as a limbless husk to beg on the streets of denerim with child murderer branded on his forehead. Then i'd start getting creative.

Yep, you definitely have the moral high ground here.

Frankly, as a Cousland, that thinking is perfectly understandable.

I can't even begin to describe what I would do to someone who slaughtered my entire family in front of me.  My only regret would be that they would probably die too soon because I don't know how to keep them alive while I cut pieces off of them.

Moral hight ground be damned - think about what that Cousland witnessed, and pretend it was really you.  And then tell me you would be in favor of setting such a person free.

Who said I wanted to set Howe free? I just feel that people who are in favor of torturing Howe and/or murdering his family can't really talk about justice or how evil Howe is as they've crossed the line, too. Just because Howe is a monster does not mean that unnecessarily committing monstrous acts on him doesn't make you a monster as well.

Well, I never said anythng about touching his family.  In fact, my HN recruited Nate in Awakening.

And maybe I do cross the line by torturing such a person.  If I was in that situation, I can't imagine I'd care. 

I DON'T think I'd be in any way the monster Howe is - I wasn't doing that for any type of personal material gain, nor would I move on and do that to anyone else, or commit any of the other monstrous acts he committed.

I kind of agree with you. I would never even dream of touching Howe's family as they had nothing to do with the Cousland massacre (not to mention that Nate is awesome), but I wouldn't give Howe a quick death, accusations of being as bad as him be damned.

While I wouldn't torture him for a prolonged period of time, in my mind, the Howe death scene (when done by my HNF) goes something like this:

HNF fights with Howe until he's incapacitated. HNF pulls out a dagger and proceeds to stab Howe once for every single loved one she lost on that night (while yelling, "this is for Iona, this is for Oren, this is for Oriana, this is for Gilmore", etc...). HNF pulls out the Cousland family sword and utters the line "And this is for my parents!" and proceeds to decapitate Howe.

Not a prolonged torture scenario but a much more savage death than what we see in the game.

[asaiasai]

Zjarcal wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

blothulfur wrote...

As a Cousland I would spare him then spend weeks making him sing his screams of apology on the rack before setting him loose as a limbless husk to beg on the streets of denerim with child murderer branded on his forehead. Then i'd start getting creative.

Yep, you definitely have the moral high ground here.

Frankly, as a Cousland, that thinking is perfectly understandable.

I can't even begin to describe what I would do to someone who slaughtered my entire family in front of me.  My only regret would be that they would probably die too soon because I don't know how to keep them alive while I cut pieces off of them.

Moral hight ground be damned - think about what that Cousland witnessed, and pretend it was really you.  And then tell me you would be in favor of setting such a person free.

Who said I wanted to set Howe free? I just feel that people who are in favor of torturing Howe and/or murdering his family can't really talk about justice or how evil Howe is as they've crossed the line, too. Just because Howe is a monster does not mean that unnecessarily committing monstrous acts on him doesn't make you a monster as well.

Well, I never said anythng about touching his family.  In fact, my HN recruited Nate in Awakening.

And maybe I do cross the line by torturing such a person.  If I was in that situation, I can't imagine I'd care. 

I DON'T think I'd be in any way the monster Howe is - I wasn't doing that for any type of personal material gain, nor would I move on and do that to anyone else, or commit any of the other monstrous acts he committed.

I kind of agree with you. I would never even dream of touching Howe's family as they had nothing to do with the Cousland massacre (not to mention that Nate is awesome), but I wouldn't give Howe a quick death, accusations of being as bad as him be damned.

While I wouldn't torture him for a prolonged period of time, in my mind, the Howe death scene (when done by my HNF) goes something like this:

HNF fights with Howe until he's incapacitated. HNF pulls out a dagger and proceeds to stab Howe once for every single loved one she lost on that night (while yelling, "this is for Iona, this is for Oren, this is for Oriana, this is for Gilmore", etc...). HNF pulls out the Cousland family sword and utters the line "And this is for my parents!" and proceeds to decapitate Howe.

Not a prolonged torture scenario but a much more savage death than what we see in the game.

I can understand your feelings concerning torture, but you have to admit a red hot poker shoved up his ass would be apropriate, poooooossibly a bit excessive but just barely.

Asai

[CalJones]

Um, no. Torture is abhorrent.

Reminds me of the scene in ME2 where Shepard encounters the guards beating a prisoner aboard the Purgatory. The guard says it's a massage compared to what his victims endured, but a paragon Shepard has the option to say stop this for your sakes - it belittles you. And that's pretty much how I feel.

It doesn't matter how angry you are - indulging in sadism makes you no better than Howe. True enough that dying in combat is a far better death than Howe deserves, which is why, given the option, I'd rather he be convicted and hanged.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

I probably wouldn't from a Cousland pov. Wouldn't be able to trust him or even want to be near him. Although I wouldn't torture him, but I wouldn't let him go to trial either. I put a dagger in his heart every time as a Cousland.



Other origins maybe. Depends on what I'm gaining. I just don't think the risk meets the reward from a non meta gaming pov of recruiting Howe. If I metagame it may be an easier choice.