194 réponses à ce sujet

[Costin_Razvan]

Oh, and *facepalm* at the idea that just because you are a "leader in history", that means you're somehow immune from being called a sociopath or worse.

To generalize and declare that all people who want personal power and could give a **** about others save for those closest to them ( and there is nothing to indicate that Howe did not care for his family ) and making them sociopaths is a facepalm.



Also, if a person is a sadist it does not mean he is a sociopath necessarily.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Howe is definitely sadistic. And not nearly good enough of a leader to justify his actions for me. All I see is a man accumulating more power without a plan or vision, having his own mafia ring and band of thugs pillage the city he is supposed to protect. He is most certainly smart. But would I call him a leader, or a good / great one? No.

However, to give the guy some credit, I do think he cares about Ferelden. Maybe not as much as he cares for himself, but still.

[Costin_Razvan]

Would you call him a sociopath then Knight?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Would you call him a sociopath then Knight?

I am not a psychiatrist, so I don't feel qualified to use that term.

Would he fit in some if not many criteria of what a sociopath is supposed to mean? Almost certainly.
But many men I would deem great would also fit in there.

So sociopath for me is a neutral word, I don't take it as an insult or praise. It can mean someone who is lower than low, and it could mean someone who can do things that the masses can't do, so they begrudge him / her for it.

But I prefer to abstain from using such labels. Whatever Howe is, I would not qualify him as a good enough leader to justify what he did.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 octobre 2010 - 03:58 .

[Persephone]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Oh, and *facepalm* at the idea that just because you are a "leader in history", that means you're somehow immune from being called a sociopath or worse.

To generalize and declare that all people who want personal power and could give a **** about others save for those closest to them ( and there is nothing to indicate that Howe did not care for his family ) and making them sociopaths is a facepalm.

Also, if a person is a sadist it does not mean he is a sociopath necessarily.

Well, both his daughter and son did not speak very highly of him.........

[Daewan]

Unless there is suddenly a lack of power-hungry nobles who don't care about anyone else and would happily sacrifice the good of the nation for their own personal gain, no. Neither Loghain nor Howe should be spared, not even to become Grey Wardens.

Where's the line? How desperate do we have to be for people willing to sacrifice their lives for their country? Neither of those men are trustworthy. Neither of them struck any of my characters are particularly sane or intelligent. Yes, we need Grey Wardens. Walk over to the Alienage and sign up some people who are willing to fight. Go to the outlying farms. Just because they're noble doesn't mean they're worth saving.

If anything, the position of power that they abused means they should be judged more harshly, and should be held up as an example. If their deaths will convince others to think twice before, gosh, I don't know, betraying your king, seizing power, and selling your citizens into slavery, then their deaths had a purpose. Letting them live just reinforces the ideal that a noble can commit any crime and get away with it.

[Costin_Razvan]

Whatever Howe is, I would not qualify him as a good enough leader to justify what he did.

Perhaps, but the way I see it is that his actions after starting to work for Loghain ( as in after Highever events ) were rather good moves to help Loghain in the civil war. It is simply speculation to think Howe wanted the throne....perhaps he did, perhaps he did not. I do not have any evidence ( besides Howe's thirst for power ) to argue either way.

 If their deaths will convince others to think twice before, gosh,

This line of logic has never worked. Nobles will never be cowed fully, and you are just asking for them to plot against you by going down this road.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 04 octobre 2010 - 04:09 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Perhaps, but the way I see it is that his actions after starting to work for Loghain ( as in after Highever events ) were rather good moves to help Loghain in the civil war. It is simply speculation to think Howe wanted the throne....perhaps he did, perhaps he did not. I do not have any evidence either way ( besides Howe's thirst for power ) to argue either way.

I was more questioning the mafia ring he put in place in Denerim. Channeling and pillaging wealth when the kingdom is in dire need for it. As Kylon said, Howe's men are more responsable for crime than the criminals  themselves.
While this might be a smart act, in the sense of getting power and wealth. In a situation like this when the kingdom is on the verge of collapse, I would definately find him guilty. That's the difference between him and Loghain. Loghain's loyalty to Ferelden is not in question. Howe's is.

But like I said, I wouldn't kill him. I can't use that as an argument to kill one and spare the other, not unless Howe helps me and refuses to yield, then I can kill him.  

[Costin_Razvan]

True...but I got the sense that Howe's "men" are mercenaries and brigands he hired, and the mafia is a side effect of them being the men they are.

Unless you are referring to the Alienage that is.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 04 octobre 2010 - 04:16 .

[KaiLyn]

There is no way I trust Howe enough to make him a Warden - in my first playthough as a HNF, I responded to Howe's initial comment "My son Thomas asked after you... maybe I should bring him with me next time" with "I'd like that," implying there was a possible future there. By the end of the night, Howe had "arranged" to murder the family, my cook/Nanny (remember Nan?) and friends in his diabolical scheme - planning, perhaps, to "save me" for his son?? Creep.



As to Loghain knowing ahead of time about Howe's plot, I really don't care as there is NO WAY he didn't know after the fact that Howe had the Cousland's killed. As regeant, he (Loghain) certainly didn't investigate any of Howe's claims, which probably included "I found Orlesian items in their castle and felt they were in bed with the enemy," which Loghain probably bought lock, stock and barrel. In light of Loghain's neglect to care for another teryn over the claims of a lesser lord (Howe) and then to raise him to Arl of Denerim, he is implicated by association in the deed.



So, neither of them gets the HONOR of being a Grey Warden.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

True...but I got the sense that Howe's "men" are mercenaries and brigands he hired, and the mafia is a side effect of them being the men they are.

I am almost certain he was benefitting personally.
I think Slim says that the guards guarding Howe's silver bars depot were his elites.
Also, it was his men that kidnapped a noble boy for ransom.

Howe creating his own mafia ring is very like him. He is afterall in an environement where no one likes him, thus it would be difficult for him to get allies.

[Costin_Razvan]

I forgot about the boy, maybe you are right about what happens in Denerim.

[Addai]

Daewan wrote...

Unless there is suddenly a lack of power-hungry nobles who don't care about anyone else and would happily sacrifice the good of the nation for their own personal gain, no. Neither Loghain nor Howe should be spared, not even to become Grey Wardens.
Where's the line? How desperate do we have to be for people willing to sacrifice their lives for their country? Neither of those men are trustworthy. Neither of them struck any of my characters are particularly sane or intelligent. Yes, we need Grey Wardens. Walk over to the Alienage and sign up some people who are willing to fight. Go to the outlying farms. Just because they're noble doesn't mean they're worth saving.

I tend to play the same way but realize you're thinking like a Fereldan and not like a Warden, at least a Genevieve/ Duncan type of Warden.  There aren't many in the alienage or the neighboring farms who are cunning, capable fighters, and the darkspawn threat is grave enough that it takes priority over other considerations.

[Persephone]

KaiLyn wrote...

There is no way I trust Howe enough to make him a Warden - in my first playthough as a HNF, I responded to Howe's initial comment "My son Thomas asked after you... maybe I should bring him with me next time" with "I'd like that," implying there was a possible future there. By the end of the night, Howe had "arranged" to murder the family, my cook/Nanny (remember Nan?) and friends in his diabolical scheme - planning, perhaps, to "save me" for his son?? Creep.

As to Loghain knowing ahead of time about Howe's plot, I really don't care as there is NO WAY he didn't know after the fact that Howe had the Cousland's killed. As regeant, he (Loghain) certainly didn't investigate any of Howe's claims, which probably included "I found Orlesian items in their castle and felt they were in bed with the enemy," which Loghain probably bought lock, stock and barrel. In light of Loghain's neglect to care for another teryn over the claims of a lesser lord (Howe) and then to raise him to Arl of Denerim, he is implicated by association in the deed.

So, neither of them gets the HONOR of being a Grey Warden.

Being a Grey Warden is not an honor. Unless kinslayers, blood mages, traitors and carta thugs "deserve" that "honor".

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I forgot about the boy, maybe you are right about what happens in Denerim.

I also remember Slim saying that Howe was stealing from the royal treasury to give gifts to his mistress Sophie.
Once again proving that the source of all evil is a woman jk

@ Addai.
Ae you implying that one has to think like a Warden to spare Loghain?
My character really doesn't care about the Wardens and he puts Ferelden over them any day. And it made perfect sense for him to spare Loghain.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 octobre 2010 - 04:29 .

[Costin_Razvan]

There goes my opinion of Howe. He is just your typical power hungry noble then.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 04 octobre 2010 - 04:32 .

[Persephone]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

There goes my opinion of Howe. He is just your typical power hungry noble then.

No way, as he is voiced by Tim Curry! 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

There goes my opinion of Howe. He is just your typical power hungry noble then.

Yes, he is. Though bolder and perhaps smarter than your average power hungry noble. But also considerably less subtle, which makes me question his prudence. 

[KaiLyn]

Persephone wrote...

Being a Grey Warden is not an honor. Unless kinslayers, blood mages, traitors and carta thugs "deserve" that "honor".

Ah, but they are the best in their zones of activity AND some DO consider it an honor - Bryce, Gilmor, Jory and Wynne each have comments that indicate some consider Grey Wardens exceptional.

[Elhanan]

KaiLyn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Being a Grey Warden is not an honor. Unless kinslayers, blood mages, traitors and carta thugs "deserve" that "honor".

Ah, but they are the best in their zones of activity AND some DO consider it an honor - Bryce, Gilmor, Jory and Wynne each have comments that indicate some consider Grey Wardens exceptional.

And Maric, I believe.

[Briiel]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I also remember Slim saying that Howe was stealing from the royal treasury to give gifts to his mistress Sophie.
Once again proving that the source of all evil is a woman jk

So what are you trying to say here ?? Women are evil *gets ready to light a fire under KoP*<3

[Persephone]

KaiLyn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Being a Grey Warden is not an honor. Unless kinslayers, blood mages, traitors and carta thugs "deserve" that "honor".

Ah, but they are the best in their zones of activity AND some DO consider it an honor - Bryce, Gilmor, Jory and Wynne each have comments that indicate some consider Grey Wardens exceptional.

All based on legends. Riordan pretty much debunks those ideas. As do most Origin stories.

[Persephone]

Briiel wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I also remember Slim saying that Howe was stealing from the royal treasury to give gifts to his mistress Sophie.
Once again proving that the source of all evil is a woman jk

So what are you trying to say here ?? Women are evil *gets ready to light a fire under KoP*<3

*Holding a torch* 

[KnightofPhoenix]

KaiLyn wrote...
Ah, but they are the best in their zones of activity AND some DO consider it an honor - Bryce, Gilmor, Jory and Wynne each have comments that indicate some consider Grey Wardens exceptional.

And they are naive, who refer to stories and legends, and not first hand experience.
Honor means nothing to the Wardens.

I see no honor in bargaining with dying parents who were generous enough to welcome you about saving their child. I see cold ruthless pragmatism and I respect Duncan for that. But I would not call this honorable. 

[Costin_Razvan]

I see no honor in sitting idly by while a rapist has just kidnapped a few women, while you give your weapon to two elves to sort it out themselves.