194 réponses à ce sujet

[blothulfur]

Good point the mages have a haven of civilisation in their towers, pity about the repression really but I always thought the human noble origin was a bit too nice for a setting based on medieval england. My ancestors were naughty bunny wabbits.

[cdtrk65]

thesuperdarkone wrote...

tool_bot wrote...

Bratinov wrote...

Sure, and if he survives I'll hand him over to Avernus to be experimented on.

Why does everything think inhumane punishment is alright so long as the victim is 'bad?'

I wouldn't call it torture. I'd call it him benefiting the wardens with new research. He gets punished, and the Wardens end up benefiting in some way. I say that seems a bit just, considering what he did. I'd chose jury, imprisonment, and when my Cousland is hero of Ferelden, I would rub it in his face, and let him wallow in his hatred for a few days, and then execute him.

Yeah send him to the Warden's Keep and let the mage (I forget his name) there experiement on him. lol

[Obadiah]

I don't need to torture Howe. Summary execution for his crimes is fine, and I think most nobles would see it as fair. In fact, letting Howe live begs the question: what do you need to do to get executed in Ferelden?

[Costin_Razvan]

In fact, letting Howe live begs the question: what do you need to do to get executed in Ferelden?

There is no written law in Fereldan, only convention. By it Howe should be executed for what he did, but only towards the Couslands, cause really THAT is the only crime you could kill him for given his status as a noble.



Also, joining the Grey Wardens isn't a favor, it isn't an honor. I see them as I do the Night's Watch in a Song of Ice and Fire: Join up or pay for your crimes.

[tool_bot]

Obadiah wrote...

In fact, letting Howe live begs the question: what do you need to do to get executed in Ferelden?

Get in the way. 

[tool_bot]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Also, joining the Grey Wardens isn't a favor, it isn't an honor. I see them as I do the Night's Watch in a Song of Ice and Fire: Join up or pay for your crimes.

That would be the Legion of the Dead. The Grey Wardens enjoy a high status in Thedas and are welcomed by everyone from Dwarven Kings to Alienage Elders.

[LobselVith8]

tool_bot wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Also, joining the Grey Wardens isn't a favor, it isn't an honor. I see them as I do the Night's Watch in a Song of Ice and Fire: Join up or pay for your crimes.

That would be the Legion of the Dead. The Grey Wardens enjoy a high status in Thedas and are welcomed by everyone from Dwarven Kings to Alienage Elders.

That's true. Playing as an elven mage make that clear: complete freedom from the Chantry and respect from people who ordinary see magic as evil (especially the Arl of Redcliffe quest where the same people who feel queasy talking about magic fall over themselves praising my actions).

Tigress M wrote...

No, I can't fathom a game where I could let Howe live even without knowing what he did to the Couslands. But then, I've never spared Loghain either (except in one playthrough where I was going for an achievement).

I couldn't, either. My Warden was a mage who had been taken from the Alienage (as the game suggests based on a dialogue option in the Magi Origin and Leliana asking about the elven Mage Warden's memories of the Denerim Alienage), and Howe leading a purge of the alienage to cover up the imprisonment of Bann Vaughan, made it clear how vile Howe was. Loghain is just as responsible for letting this monster loose and nearly dooming Ferelden by his actions. There's no reason I can see to spare him for his crimes. A lot of people badmouth Alistair for getting so emotional about it at the Landsmeet, and my thought is that this is the man who allowed his surrogate father, Duncan, and all the men and women he came to see as his family when he became a Grey Warden, die at the hands of darkspawn. Alistair became a friend, and if faced with the choice, I'd chose death for both of these men: Howe leads a purge of the Alienage while Loghain sells the survivors to Tevinter slaves.

[Costin_Razvan]

That would be the Legion of the Dead. The Grey Wardens enjoy a high status in Thedas and are welcomed by everyone from Dwarven Kings to Alienage Elders.

The Night's Watch also had the possibility for free recruits, not just criminals. However that is how it worked for them: You joined up and you did not have to pay for your crimes.



The Legion is different in that you are declared dead once you join, and your goal is to die in battle. The Grey Wardens are closer to the Night's Watch in their goal: Keep evil at bay, with endless vigil over the land.



The fact Grey Wardens are respected does not mean that they do not have recruits who are criminals. Duncan in fact was a thief facing the gallows when he was conscripted forcibly by Genevieve.



Also the Grey Wardens, like the Night's Watch, are considered obsolete by many, while the Legion most certainly is not by the Dwarves.

[Giggles_Manically]

Riordian even flat out tells you:

"We aren't judges. Kinslayers, blood mages, traitors, rebels, carta thugs, common bandits; Anyone with the skill and mettle to take up the sword against the darkspawn is welcome among us."

[tool_bot]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

The fact Grey Wardens are respected does not mean that they do not have recruits who are criminals. Duncan in fact was a thief facing the gallows when he was conscripted forcibly by Genevieve.

I never said the Wardens couldn't be criminals ect. i was pointing out how becoming a Warden can and is often viewed as a great honor. Like just about everyone in every Origin tells you.

[tool_bot]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Riordian even flat out tells you:
"We aren't judges. Kinslayers, blood mages, traitors, rebels, carta thugs, common bandits; Anyone with the skill and mettle to take up the sword against the darkspawn is welcome among us."

Wow I'm glad he's not running the show then. Jeez can you imagine leaving that guy in charge of recruitment? Everyone would want the Wardens out for fear they'd rape their daughters or loot their homes. And they'd have a case, too.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Gilmore wouldn't be going to Ostagar and the grief of all the families of the soldiers who were never going to Ostagar? Still not in any way betraying Cailan. And Bryce wasn't supposed to travel alone. He was going to travel with Howe's forces.

Let us say you are correct. By those forces not joining the King at ostagar would be reason enough to be held for treason.

Except that you were the only one with any sort of training or skill which means that you were the only one he was interested in. Everyone else would be a burden to the Wardens instead of an asset and he didn't need to make anyone a Warden on the spot as he could take them to Ostagar to do that.

In this case, I do not care what the GW criteria is as far as standards. I would have given the Joining chalice to all abled bodied volunteers, and might have taken and held the estate until the Calling finally hits.

[Xilizhra]

Hmm. Tricky. I'm inclined to let Loghain live (though in my current playthrough, I'll have Alistair duel him and thus remove the responsibility of execution from myself), but Howe? He could be a useful asset in theory, but he just doesn't seem to have the skill necessary for being helpful to the Grey Wardens in any major capacity, and I don't see why Riordan would even be making the offer. And Elyse Cousland is pretty damned pragmatic, but Howe... killing off not just her family, but her entire household? Even pragmatism can only go so far. She'll be quite glad that she gets to kill him in battle.

[FellowerOfOdin]

He killed my very own blood thus he has to die, it's simple as that. Not to mention that unlike Loghain, Howe is just pure evil, he has not a single good character trait.

Modifié par FellowerOfOdin, 05 octobre 2010 - 12:42 .

[Sarah1281]

In this case, I do not care what the GW criteria is as far as standards. I would have given the Joining chalice to all abled bodied volunteers, and might have taken and held the estate until the Calling finally hits.

Given how long it's been since the last Joining, it's not like they have an excess of blood to be wasted on people who cannot fight or years to train them to not be useless against darkspawn and, more importantly, the Archdemon.

[jpdipity]

Sarah1281 wrote...

As a Senior Warden, he could have stepped in, but chose not to do so.

Could he have? He made his suggestion but you or Alistair (and if it's Alistair Riordan doesn't even get to interject) are the ones duel Loghain. If you or your champion win then you are the one left deciding Loghain's fate. How can Riordan tell you that the fact that the terms of the duel mean that Loghain's fate is in your hands is nonvalid because he was a Warden for longer? Seriously, think about how well that would go over.

All he would have had to say is "I conscript Loghain to the Grey Wardens."  Riordan does not need my permission or Fereldan's permission to conscript someone.  Most, if not all, of the PCs were conscripted in a similar fashion as a means to avoid certain death; so, it would be understood if the same happened to Loghain.  Bottom line, if it really mattered that much to Riordan, he would have done more than say - hey, it's compelling.

[Sarah1281]

jpdipity wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

As a Senior Warden, he could have stepped in, but chose not to do so.

Could he have? He made his suggestion but you or Alistair (and if it's Alistair Riordan doesn't even get to interject) are the ones duel Loghain. If you or your champion win then you are the one left deciding Loghain's fate. How can Riordan tell you that the fact that the terms of the duel mean that Loghain's fate is in your hands is nonvalid because he was a Warden for longer? Seriously, think about how well that would go over.

All he would have had to say is "I conscript Loghain to the Grey Wardens."  Riordan does not need my permission or Fereldan's permission to conscript someone.  Most, if not all, of the PCs were conscripted in a similar fashion as a means to avoid certain death; so, it would be understood if the same happened to Loghain.  Bottom line, if it really mattered that much to Riordan, he would have done more than say - hey, it's compelling.

Ideally, the rite of conscription could allow you to force everyone who happened to be in the room to undertake the Joining. People don't use it all willy-nilly like that because if they do that they'll ****** off some very powerful people. If Riordan tries to steal the power that the Landsmeet gave you to decide what to do with Loghain then he'll be usurping the Landsmeet's power and will just end up pissing them off. Tell me, in what way would further turning Ferelden against the Grey Wardens in the middle of a Blight be a good idea? 

[PatT2]

Notice that your co-hopeful wardens in Ostagar don't survive. Funny that. Seems like somehow the evil ones don't survive the joining. I would hope howe wouldn't survive. But he's a snake, like Anora said. He should be imprisoned for life, at the very least. He was the actual hand that tortured nobles and others. Pity. Hah. He didn't have any and he doesn't deserve any.

[Sarah1281]

PatT2 wrote...

Notice that your co-hopeful wardens in Ostagar don't survive. Funny that. Seems like somehow the evil ones don't survive the joining. I would hope howe wouldn't survive. But he's a snake, like Anora said. He should be imprisoned for life, at the very least. He was the actual hand that tortured nobles and others. Pity. Hah. He didn't have any and he doesn't deserve any.

I don't think that Jory dying when he doesn't even undertake the Joining and Daveth (who is just a pickpocket) dying means that any sort of morality is involved with surviving.

You yourself could be a saint or the kind of CE that would cheerfully leave his betrothed, cousin, and several others to be serial raped for forty sovereign and you don't die. Velanna's kind of been on a huge killing spree before her Joining and she doesn't die. I don't feel that Loghain is evil but he's done worse than what we've heard from Daveth and he makes out just fine as well. Daveth really seems to be a lot like Duncan who, again, doesn't die.

[thegreateski]

I shall force the two of them to fight to the death. Gladiator style.



The winner will be made into a Grey Warden and then be given to Avernus for his research.



The loser shall have the privilege of dying before you.