141 réponses à ce sujet

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

David Gaider wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
I dunno much like Carth, Alistair tends to come off pretty whiny at alot of points in the game. Kaidan as well now that I remember back. To be honest I've felt the quality of the writing when it comes to companions the last few titles hasn't been quite as interesting as it was with BG and BG2, imo anyway.

Rose-coloured glasses, much? I assure you the followers in BG2 were just as whiny-- when you got to actually speak to them. Which was comparitvely little. Maybe that's better? Less chances to whine.

As for the OP, I'm sure we'll think of something.

Could be David, could also be when you've played as many CRPG's along a particular settings the companions all start to run together. I admit though, the two BG titles + expansions are my favorites so there may be a tad bit of bias in that conclusion.

[ShrinkingFish]

Viva la France wrote...

Everyone is whiney to a degree

Not Sten. He was too busy being a total BAMF to whine.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Viva la France wrote...

Everyone is whiney to a degree

Not Sten. He was too busy being a total BAMF to whine.

Not for me, Sten tends to hold  down the camp, I don't think I've used him more than 5 mins in any of my play throughs. hehe

[Brockololly]

I don't quite get the whole "whiny" companion complaint- sure sometimes they might moan about their problems, but maybe the solution is to let the PC whine right back? Sort of how if Alistair is moaning about Duncan, if you're a Cousland you can basically shut him up by saying how your whole family was murdered.

I'd just like it if in the future the companions occasionally reacted more to how the PC was doing rather than constantly needing the PC to play therapist. Origins did this better than most, with little things like in Witch Hunt where Ariane reacts to the Warden if he has Morrigan's ring was absolutely awesome, IMO.

Its like Chris Avellone mentioned in this interview- RPGs need to react to the PC:

What, in your opinion, are the crucial elements for a good RPG these days?


The range of character development and customization, and reactivity to  that character choice and development within the game world. The more  you can do to bring story, world, and characters into the equation, the  better, but ultimately, players want to build the character they want, customize their character, and then have the world respond appropriately through dialogue choices, ways to solve quests, or even NPC's reactions to your character's purple mohawk.

Modifié par Brockololly, 04 octobre 2010 - 03:55 .

[David Gaider]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Could be David, could also be when you've played as many CRPG's along a particular settings the companions all start to run together. I admit though, the two BG titles + expansions are my favorites so there may be a tad bit of bias in that conclusion.

They're my favorites, too, but then they were also my first. I think it's possible to look at something you love and still be critical about it. We've advanced our writing techniques a lot since back then-- I think a lot of people forget that you couldn't even click on a BG2 companion to speak with them. They only spoke to you, at random intervals.

Whether the characters themselves were more interesting, I don't know. That's subjective. At least you had a nice long game to get to know them over, though I think people might forget the fact that they more or less ran out of things to say to you half-way through the game.

At any rate, there's always new things to try. If people want to use reductionism to say that our characters are all alike, that's fine. I don't know what it gets them-- if you ignore what's different about most characters (or people, for that matter) they can be fit into convenient categories. I think it's the differences that make them interesting, but what are you going to do? To me, it's always fun exploring someone new.

Brockololly wrote...
I don't quite get the whole "whiny" companion complaint

My experience is that if any companion has an issue, ever, and speaks it aloud someone, somewhere will accuse them of whining. I imagine it has something to do with whether or not you like a character-- in real life if people I don't like tell me about their problems I get irritated, too.

Modifié par David Gaider, 04 octobre 2010 - 03:56 .

[Saibh]

David Gaider wrote...

My experience is that if any companion has an issue, ever, and speaks it aloud someone, somewhere will accuse them of whining. I imagine it has something to do with whether or not you like a character-- in real life if people I don't like tell me about their problems I get irritated, too.

Of course, if they say nothing and deny having problems, they get labeled as boring.

You're never going to win. Ever.

[Lord_Valandil]

Saibh wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

My experience is that if any companion has an issue, ever, and speaks it aloud someone, somewhere will accuse them of whining. I imagine it has something to do with whether or not you like a character-- in real life if people I don't like tell me about their problems I get irritated, too.

Of course, if they say nothing and deny having problems, they get labeled as boring.

You're never going to win. Ever.

True enough.

[upsettingshorts]

Yeah, seems all companions can - by complainers - be reduced to:

1) Boring
2) Whiny
3) Actual or potential LI

There may or may not be overlap between 3 and the others.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 octobre 2010 - 04:03 .

[GithCheater]

I think it's the whiny BG nostalgia.

[upsettingshorts]

GithCheater wrote...

I think it's the whiny BG nostalgia.

Nostalgia:  Making the past not what it used to be since the good ol' days.

[Ulicus]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
I dunno much like Carth, Alistair tends to come off pretty whiny at alot of points in the game. Kaidan as well now that I remember back. To be honest I've felt the quality of the writing when it comes to companions the last few titles hasn't been quite as interesting as it was with BG and BG2, imo anyway.

Rose-coloured glasses, much? I assure you the followers in BG2 were just as whiny-- when you got to actually speak to them. Which was comparitvely little. Maybe that's better? Less chances to whine.

As for the OP, I'm sure we'll think of something.

Could be David, could also be when you've played as many CRPG's along a particular settings the companions all start to run together. I admit though, the two BG titles + expansions are my favorites so there may be a tad bit of bias in that conclusion.

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Kaidan wasn't remotely whiny. And neither Carth (who I thought was perfectly justified, honestly -- it bothered me more that Revan couldn't AGREE with him) or Alistair have anything on... well, you know.



And she made my deified character pay child support, too. CURSE HER!

[Brockololly]

David Gaider wrote...
My experience is that if any companion has an issue, ever, and speaks it aloud someone, somewhere will accuse them of whining. I imagine it has something to do with whether or not you like a character-- in real life if people I don't like tell me about their problems I get irritated, too.

Haha- true. I don't get why some people go out of their way to hate characters either- like how some people despise Morrigan or Alistair. If you don't like a companion, simply don't use them and leave them at camp; when they whine tell them to shove off. Problem solved.

Although, I did hate Oghren in Awakening- but that had more to do with him becoming a dwarven Jar Jar Binks and having his  approval impossible to raise no matter what you did.

[Riona45]

Upsettingshorts wrote...


Nostalgia:  Making the past not what it used to be since the good ol' days.

*snicker*

I loved the BG series and it's characters...but the character interaction in BioWare's modern games is definitely better.  And yeah, people tend to forget that when you clicked on a BG party member, you'd get the message, "[Name] has nothing to say to you."  Conversations were at THEIR leisure, not yours, generally triggered by a timer.

[ShrinkingFish]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Saibh wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

My experience is that if any companion has an issue, ever, and speaks it aloud someone, somewhere will accuse them of whining. I imagine it has something to do with whether or not you like a character-- in real life if people I don't like tell me about their problems I get irritated, too.

Of course, if they say nothing and deny having problems, they get labeled as boring.

You're never going to win. Ever.

True enough.

I win... all the time. :happy:

[Riona45]

Ulicus wrote...

Kaidan wasn't remotely whiny.

You're right.  In fact, he even makes it clear that he's 31 years old and the stuff that happened when he was a teenager isn't still eating at him.

But apparently, people have decided that since he has the same voice actor as Carth, and Carth was "whiny" (supposedly), then of course Kaidan must be whiny, too.

[David Gaider]

Brockololly wrote...
Haha- true. I don't get why some people go out of their way to hate characters either- like how some people despise Morrigan or Alistair. If you don't like a companion, simply don't use them and leave them at camp; when they whine tell them to shove off. Problem solved.

Perhaps some people feel compelled to engage them in dialogue? Masochists, probably.

At any rate, I actually like the fact that people have an intense dislike for some characters. If a character is either loved or hated but everyone has a strong opinion either way, it's a sign they were very successful.

It amuses me to no end to know that when people come onto the forums to rage about a character they are, in actuality, asking for more of the same. But I'm perverse like that.

[ShrinkingFish]

Brockololly wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
My experience is that if any companion has an issue, ever, and speaks it aloud someone, somewhere will accuse them of whining. I imagine it has something to do with whether or not you like a character-- in real life if people I don't like tell me about their problems I get irritated, too.

Haha- true. I don't get why some people go out of their way to hate characters either- like how some people despise Morrigan or Alistair. If you don't like a companion, simply don't use them and leave them at camp; when they whine tell them to shove off. Problem solved.

Although, I did hate Oghren in Awakening- but that had more to do with him becoming a dwarven Jar Jar Binks and having his  approval impossible to raise no matter what you did.

Dude! Oghren gave me such a hard time in Awakening! In Origins we were best buds. Drank and killed stuff together and generally had a blast.

And in Awakening he just got pissed off at me all the time. Like he had a burr up his bum or something... though come to think of it... he did mention having a rather nasty rash... maybe that was it.

[Riona45]

Brockololly wrote...

Although, I did hate Oghren in Awakening- but that had more to do with him becoming a dwarven Jar Jar Binks and having his  approval impossible to raise no matter what you did.

That's overstating the issue, I think, but I'll grant that it was annoying how he begins at 0 approval even if he knows you and the game's gift mechanic acts as though you've already given him gifts.

[The Hardest Thing In The World]

I hated Leliana and hope there won't be another one like her in DA2.

David Gaider wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
Haha-
true. I don't get why some people go out of their way to hate
characters either- like how some people despise Morrigan or Alistair. If
you don't like a companion, simply don't use them and leave them at
camp; when they whine tell them to shove off. Problem solved.

Perhaps some people feel compelled to engage them in dialogue? Masochists, probably.

At
any rate, I actually like the fact that people have an intense dislike
for some characters. If a character is either loved or hated but
everyone has a strong opinion either way, it's a sign they were very
successful.

It amuses me to no end to know that when people come
onto the forums to rage about a character they are, in actuality, asking
for more of thesame. But I'm perverse like that. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

Oh, dang!

Modifié par The Hardest Thing In The World, 04 octobre 2010 - 04:16 .

[ShrinkingFish]

David Gaider wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
Haha- true. I don't get why some people go out of their way to hate characters either- like how some people despise Morrigan or Alistair. If you don't like a companion, simply don't use them and leave them at camp; when they whine tell them to shove off. Problem solved.

Perhaps some people feel compelled to engage them in dialogue? Masochists, probably.

At any rate, I actually like the fact that people have an intense dislike for some characters. If a character is either loved or hated but everyone has a strong opinion either way, it's a sign they were very successful.

It amuses me to no end to know that when people come onto the forums to rage about a character they are, in actuality, asking for more of the same. But I'm perverse like that.

You're the perfect fit for all us masochists. We enjoy the pain and you enjoy giving it to us. Match made in heaven that.

[ErichHartmann]

David Gaider wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
Haha- true. I don't get why some people go out of their way to hate characters either- like how some people despise Morrigan or Alistair. If you don't like a companion, simply don't use them and leave them at camp; when they whine tell them to shove off. Problem solved.

Perhaps some people feel compelled to engage them in dialogue? Masochists, probably.

At any rate, I actually like the fact that people have an intense dislike for some characters. If a character is either loved or hated but everyone has a strong opinion either way, it's a sign they were very successful.

It amuses me to no end to know that when people come onto the forums to rage about a character they are, in actuality, asking for more of the same. But I'm perverse like that.

I talk to everyone.  I would hate to miss out on a companion quest and background information just because I don't necessarily  like them. (Unless it's Zevran, I just kill him).

Modifié par ErichHartmann, 04 octobre 2010 - 04:29 .

[Ulicus]

Riona45 wrote...

You're right.  In fact, he even makes it clear that he's 31 years old and the stuff that happened when he was a  teenager isn't still eating at him.

But apparently, people have decided that since he has the same voice actor as Carth, and Carth was "whiny" (supposedly), then of course Kaidan must be whiny, too.

Yeah, that seems to be their only rationale.

Riona45 wrote...

And yeah, people tend to forget that when you clicked on a BG party member, you'd get the message, "[Name] has nothing to say to you."  Conversations were at THEIR leisure, not yours, generally triggered by a timer.

Is that really so far removed from exhausting the dialogue options of a modern BioWare NPC, though? By the latter stages of the game, Zevran/Leliana/Oghren/Whoever basically have "nothing to say" to my character, either, even if they are polite enough to say "hi, what's up?" before my character chimes in with some variation of "lets just move on" after some awkward staring.

Modifié par Ulicus, 04 octobre 2010 - 04:32 .

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

Origins and Awakening were the only RPGs in my life in which I didn't dislike a single companion (except Loghain, but I only disliked him for what he did, not his character).

Wynne's "grandmotherly side" sometimes did annoy me a little bit, but we got along just fine. Awakening Oghren on the other hand, almost drove me up the walls sometimes. I really liked him in Origins, but he was so touchy in the expansion I wished there was a *slap some sense into Oghren* dialogue option. I couldn't hate the poor sod after what we've been trough together in Origins though.

[Riona45]

Ulicus wrote...

Is that really so far removed from exhausting the dialogue options of a modern BioWare NPC, though? By the latter stages of the game, Zevran/Leliana/Oghren/Whoever basically have "nothing to say" to my character, either, even if they are polite enough to say "hi, what's up?" before my character chimes in with some variation of "lets just move on" after some awkward staring.

Heh, yeah, that's a fair point. 

[Ortaya Alevli]

Don't take me for being defensive, but I believe I have valid reasons to claim that Carth was a whiner. Not that it's a big deal. As for Kaidan, he rocked and I honestly have no idea why anyone would find him whiny (aside from VA which is hardly a reason in itself).

I also want to thank Ulicus here for reminding me of the Paragon of Whiners; here I was, happily sitting on my chair after years of bleach treatment I performed on my brain. If Bethany turns out to be another Aerie, I fear I'll start having nightmares.